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Dayvenkirq 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
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Points: 10970
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 Posted: June 21 2012 at 15:50 |
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"Firth of Fifth". Boring? A prog listener has to be a lifeless human not to dig that piano-then-flute theme. As Jim Garten pointed out, it might be a template for generic prog. A couple of themes and some variations on those themes. Besides, all those negative comments made about the song - that's just a way of not appreciating all the hard work Tony has put into it. He was pleased with it, I am pleased with it.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
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Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
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Points: 6673
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 15:31 |
Actually , the perfect word to describe him is  "filth" .
Thanks for the huggy !
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13887
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 15:06 |
 tszirmay wrote:
I am so sorry, I confused Chris Welsh with the reviled Alan Jones, I am getting senile with old age!
Will you all forgive me?
Especially Chris? Please  |
How could we not forgive you? 
Allan Jones was and is a wa***er.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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wjohnd
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 16 2011
Location: Scotland, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 327
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 14:32 |
Los_Endos wrote:
Ok. I am in this other forum that has bugger all to do with music...except they have a music section.Someone posted a game. Name 4 songs, we all review then and add 4 songs. I added Firth as one of my songs. It was trashed to f**k by all... "nice piano intro...turned into generic prog" "boring" etc 3/10 was average I think its a masterpiece. An absolute masterpiece without question. Question is. Am I over-rating this track? |
Well if you are overrating it, so am i. Its up there as one of my favourite genesis tracks and is a real classic
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tszirmay
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Joined: August 17 2006
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 14:05 |
I am so sorry, I confused Chris Welsh with the reviled Alan Jones, I am getting senile with old age!
Will you all forgive me?
Especially Chris? Please
Edited by tszirmay - June 21 2012 at 14:09
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 30347
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 13:59 |
tszirmay wrote:
lazland wrote:
Hercules wrote:
lazland wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Dissing prog is NOT a new phenomenon, it was also very powerful back in the 70s as well because most rock reviewers (Lester Bangs, Chris Welch, Mike Clifford, the morons at NME and Melody Maker, as well as newspaper critics) loved to heap insult on talent , coining terms such as Jethro Dull, Out of Focus, No, Emerson, Lake and Puddle, etc...). Being frustrated non-musicians they felt complexed by the Wakemans of the world and thus bashed them insanely while propping up HUGE (snort) talents like Sid Vicious, Ian Dury, the Ramones, etc...
So I am glad that many people hate prog because it's the only guarantee that it will live and prosper ! Nothing is worth defending more ! |
Welch was a massive Genesis & Yes fan, in fact of prog in general. He was one of its biggest supporters in the music press.
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And Pink Floyd. He was a friend of a friend in the early 70s and I went to some gigs with them; he loved good prog. Indeed, Melody Maker was certainly supportive of prog in general, as was Sounds. NME hated it in general, |
Yep, precisely how I remember it (aside from the gigs with Welch!). |
I know he was positive at first during the 'golden years" but I read that by the early 80s , he was dismissive of prog and felt that is was only a fad and reverted to glorifying the rockers . I may be wrong but I do remember many scribes who went the "other "way. |
Welch never did as I remember it. He wrote a positive article about neo prog in the eighties for Kerrang around about 1985. I also saw him at ELP's 25th anniversary convention in 1995 so he was still very interested in the genre.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 30347
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 13:55 |
tszirmay wrote:
Dissing prog is NOT a new phenomenon, it was also very powerful back in the 70s as well because most rock reviewers (Lester Bangs, Chris Welch, Mike Clifford, the morons at NME and Melody Maker, as well as newspaper critics) loved to heap insult on talent , coining terms such as Jethro Dull, Out of Focus, No, Emerson, Lake and Puddle, etc...). Being frustrated non-musicians they felt complexed by the Wakemans of the world and thus bashed them insanely while propping up HUGE (snort) talents like Sid Vicious, Ian Dury, the Ramones, etc...
So I am glad that many people hate prog because it's the only guarantee that it will live and prosper ! Nothing is worth defending more ! |
I agree with the sentiment in the post but puzzled why you put Chris Welch in the 'anti-prog' camp. He was a big supporter of prog and well known ELP/Yes fan.
EDIT - I should have read the posts that followed 
Edited by richardh - June 21 2012 at 13:56
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tszirmay
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 13:52 |
lazland wrote:
Hercules wrote:
lazland wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Dissing prog is NOT a new phenomenon, it was also very powerful back in the 70s as well because most rock reviewers (Lester Bangs, Chris Welch, Mike Clifford, the morons at NME and Melody Maker, as well as newspaper critics) loved to heap insult on talent , coining terms such as Jethro Dull, Out of Focus, No, Emerson, Lake and Puddle, etc...). Being frustrated non-musicians they felt complexed by the Wakemans of the world and thus bashed them insanely while propping up HUGE (snort) talents like Sid Vicious, Ian Dury, the Ramones, etc...
So I am glad that many people hate prog because it's the only guarantee that it will live and prosper ! Nothing is worth defending more ! |
Welch was a massive Genesis & Yes fan, in fact of prog in general. He was one of its biggest supporters in the music press.
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And Pink Floyd. He was a friend of a friend in the early 70s and I went to some gigs with them; he loved good prog. Indeed, Melody Maker was certainly supportive of prog in general, as was Sounds. NME hated it in general, |
Yep, precisely how I remember it (aside from the gigs with Welch!). |
Edited by tszirmay - June 21 2012 at 14:08
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: March 21 2008
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 13:47 |
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everybody is talking about the godly guitar solo in the song, but Phils drumming during the solo is the best drumming (finesse) he have ever done IMO; so freaking subtle, stil extremely crazy in its unpredictabilaty, and constantly changeing, never hitting the same symbal twice or tam-tam twice always moving while Steve is sonoring his guitar,
try to only listen to the drums in the solo, it is spectavular. take note to the simple yet magnificent drumfill at 7:48 - 7:50, in the song, it is one of the best drum fills i have ever heard
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13887
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 13:07 |
Hercules wrote:
lazland wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Dissing prog is NOT a new phenomenon, it was also very powerful back in the 70s as well because most rock reviewers (Lester Bangs, Chris Welch, Mike Clifford, the morons at NME and Melody Maker, as well as newspaper critics) loved to heap insult on talent , coining terms such as Jethro Dull, Out of Focus, No, Emerson, Lake and Puddle, etc...). Being frustrated non-musicians they felt complexed by the Wakemans of the world and thus bashed them insanely while propping up HUGE (snort) talents like Sid Vicious, Ian Dury, the Ramones, etc...
So I am glad that many people hate prog because it's the only guarantee that it will live and prosper ! Nothing is worth defending more ! |
Welch was a massive Genesis & Yes fan, in fact of prog in general. He was one of its biggest supporters in the music press.
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And Pink Floyd. He was a friend of a friend in the early 70s and I went to some gigs with them; he loved good prog. Indeed, Melody Maker was certainly supportive of prog in general, as was Sounds. NME hated it in general, |
Yep, precisely how I remember it (aside from the gigs with Welch!).
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 12:58 |
lazland wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
Dissing prog is NOT a new phenomenon, it was also very powerful back in the 70s as well because most rock reviewers (Lester Bangs, Chris Welch, Mike Clifford, the morons at NME and Melody Maker, as well as newspaper critics) loved to heap insult on talent , coining terms such as Jethro Dull, Out of Focus, No, Emerson, Lake and Puddle, etc...). Being frustrated non-musicians they felt complexed by the Wakemans of the world and thus bashed them insanely while propping up HUGE (snort) talents like Sid Vicious, Ian Dury, the Ramones, etc...
So I am glad that many people hate prog because it's the only guarantee that it will live and prosper ! Nothing is worth defending more ! |
Welch was a massive Genesis & Yes fan, in fact of prog in general. He was one of its biggest supporters in the music press.
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And Pink Floyd. He was a friend of a friend in the early 70s and I went to some gigs with them; he loved good prog. Indeed, Melody Maker was certainly supportive of prog in general, as was Sounds. NME hated it in general,
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13887
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 12:18 |
tszirmay wrote:
Dissing prog is NOT a new phenomenon, it was also very powerful back in the 70s as well because most rock reviewers (Lester Bangs, Chris Welch, Mike Clifford, the morons at NME and Melody Maker, as well as newspaper critics) loved to heap insult on talent , coining terms such as Jethro Dull, Out of Focus, No, Emerson, Lake and Puddle, etc...). Being frustrated non-musicians they felt complexed by the Wakemans of the world and thus bashed them insanely while propping up HUGE (snort) talents like Sid Vicious, Ian Dury, the Ramones, etc...
So I am glad that many people hate prog because it's the only guarantee that it will live and prosper ! Nothing is worth defending more ! |
Welch was a massive Genesis & Yes fan, in fact of prog in general. He was one of its biggest supporters in the music press.
With regard to previous comments, Firth of Fifth is a great piece of music, and I also think that the Seconds Out version is magnificent.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 11:51 |
No, you're not overrating it at all.
If the w*****s on the other forum don't appreciate it, that's their tough luck and bad taste. I think it's one of the perfect prog tracks, no - one of THE perfect music tracks.
Keep telling it how you see it and don't back down.
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 11:12 |
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One of the songs that opened the floodgates to prog for me. Curiously, there are some aspects that I don't like about it as much as I did then. But that solo still forgives much, man is it awesome.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 11:12 |
Dissing prog is NOT a new phenomenon, it was also very powerful back in the 70s as well because most rock reviewers (Lester Bangs, Chris Welch, Mike Clifford, the morons at NME and Melody Maker, as well as newspaper critics) loved to heap insult on talent , coining terms such as Jethro Dull, Out of Focus, No, Emerson, Lake and Puddle, etc...). Being frustrated non-musicians they felt complexed by the Wakemans of the world and thus bashed them insanely while propping up HUGE (snort) talents like Sid Vicious, Ian Dury, the Ramones, etc...
So I am glad that many people hate prog because it's the only guarantee that it will live and prosper ! Nothing is worth defending more !
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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The T
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 11:10 |
The best prog song ever probably. I can see why people wouldn't like it. It's rock music that's meant to be heard, listened to, not just used as background for a fitness club. It has lots of purely instrumental parts. It has dynamics (cue to the other thread), it has an arresting, soul-breaking guitar solo shaped in the melody of the flute solo before it, it has an intelligent, unique structure, its recording is quite "70s"-sounding, it has Peter Gabriel's acquired-tastes voice.
But most importantly, it lasts beyond 3 minutes and doesn't explicitly deal with women, cars, or bling.
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Manuel
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Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 13481
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 10:46 |
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One of the best Genesis songs, and a classic of progressive rock.
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Catcher10
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 09:50 |
I think you will find this conclusion by many who got into prog maybe 10-15 yrs ago and are used to later Yes, Pink Floyd and even later Genesis. SEBtP is about 40 yrs old......not many can understand or appreciate something that old.
Firth of Fifth does not fit with the later prog era, its very classical in its composition, a lot of movements that are brilliantly assembled into one of the most perfect songs, we proggers, have probably heard.
I do believe for reasons already stated above it is not well liked and considered blah by a 20-30 something listener......But in the context of early 70's......Its pretty much a masterpiece in my book.
At the end of the day who cares what others think, just have comfort in knowing that you appreciate a great pc of music...and you understand why you do.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 18697
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 09:31 |
Los_Endos wrote:
Ok. I am in this other forum that has bugger all to do with music...except they have a music section.Someone posted a game. Name 4 songs, we all review then and add 4 songs.
I added Firth as one of my songs. It was trashed to f**k by all...
"nice piano intro...turned into generic prog" "boring" etc 3/10 was average
I think its a masterpiece. An absolute masterpiece without question.
Question is. Am I over-rating this track? |
That's what happens when someone can only look at the notes and the chords and they have never once listened to music in their lives, and have no idea what the emotion and beauty behind it is all about! If you want to learn more about this, the film Amadeus is a good primer on it ... even if it is a movie! But Salieri's are everywhere, specially these days with their DAW's! I probably would have gotten huffy and puffy about that ... I already do this at the Cakewalk board, where many of them love to tell you that you are not a musician, therefore you do not know music and will never know music ... and I can say the exact opposite to them ... they have never experienced anything except the notes and chords they know ... !!! Same old battle ... nothing has changed. Ignorance will always be ignorance and that's that ... I would not bother posting in a place where everyone is just kissing someone else's behind simply to get attention, and make them feel better! As for me, it's not about me ... it's always the music! ... not the notes!
Edited by moshkito - June 21 2012 at 09:34
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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twosteves
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Joined: May 01 2007
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Points: 4098
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Posted: June 21 2012 at 08:50 |
Quirky Turkey wrote:
I honestly think Firth of Fifth is perfect and probably the best song of all time. It also has every prog convention built in as well, such as structure, mood changes and instruments.
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It's a perfect prog song with the greatest prog guitar solo for sure.
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Firth of Fifth Frustration
