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Jazz & related V
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Poll Question: Favourite?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
1 [3.23%]
1 [3.23%]
5 [16.13%]
3 [9.68%]
1 [3.23%]
19 [61.29%]
1 [3.23%]
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Mellotron Storm View Drop Down
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    Posted: October 15 2021 at 19:16
This is Frank's to lose but I have to go with Vitamin F something we all need more of with Winter approaching.
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Hard choices between Frank Zappa and John McLaughlin.
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Zorn infiltrates the party and steals my vote. 
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Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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Surely Hot Rats.
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Zappa here no contest.

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This might be an unpopular thought, but Hot Rats doesn't include enough jazz for it to be a jazz fusion album to me. This is coming from a jazz musician. Does it have jazz influence? Of course. There certainly are jazzy parts. But let's be real, there is more of a jazz instrumentation/"sound" than there is actual jazz on it. The long ostinato solo sections on Willie and Gumbo are not jazz. Improv does not equal jazz. It's closer to the blues. Green Genes is a slower instrumental version of the Uncle Meat track. Nothing really jazzy about it. The other three are more indicative of Zappa's "serious" compositional stylings, just with a rock/jazz instrumentation. And while they certainly have some jazzy moments (the last two tracks in particular, the rhythm section players are comping in a jazz type style), I wouldn't qualify them as "Jazz" compositions. 

Just my take. Still an important album.
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Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

This might be an unpopular thought, but Hot Rats doesn't include enough jazz for it to be a jazz fusion album to me. This is coming from a jazz musician. Does it have jazz influence? Of course. There certainly are jazzy parts. But let's be real, there is more of a jazz instrumentation/"sound" than there is actual jazz on it. The long ostinato solo sections on Willie and Gumbo are not jazz. Improv does not equal jazz. It's closer to the blues. Green Genes is a slower instrumental version of the Uncle Meat track. Nothing really jazzy about it. The other three are more indicative of Zappa's "serious" compositional stylings, just with a rock/jazz instrumentation. And while they certainly have some jazzy moments (the last two tracks in particular, the rhythm section players are comping in a jazz type style), I wouldn't qualify them as "Jazz" compositions. 

Just my take. Still an important album.

They're not jazz compositions; that's why it's called fusion and not jazz.


Edited by Frenetic Zetetic - October 16 2021 at 01:31

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only know Frank Zappa here... Embarrassed
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I'd say most of Hot Rats is quite comfortably a Jazz Rock Fusion-album. For one thing it's one of a handful of 1969-albums that helped shape what we now consider to be jazz fusion. While Miles incoprorated rock (among other things) coming from a jazz background, Zappa came from "rock" and fused his music with jazz (among other things). Besides rock, jazz, funk... all has it's origins in the blues - and sometimes jazz is "just blues with jazz instruments" too.

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Zappa- Hot Rats.  Alphonse Mouzon gets an honorable mention for his collaboration with Tommy Bolin & Lee Ritenour on the  "Mind Transplant" album.  Mouzon (imo) is a terribly under rated fusion drummer.




Edited by dwill123 - October 16 2021 at 06:14
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Originally posted by dwill123 dwill123 wrote:

Zappa- Hot Rats.  Alphonse Mouzon gets an honorable mention for his collaboration with Tommy Bolin & Lee Ritenour on the  "Mind Transplant" album.  Mouzon (imo) is a terribly under rated fusion drummer.
He's indeed a fantastic drummer. But I prefer his contributions to various McCoy Tyner, Wayne Shorter, Bobbi Humphrey, Jeremy Steig, Charles Sullivan, LesMcCann, Normann Connors etc... albums. Among his own albums I prefer The Essence of Mystery
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I hope there will be a "jazz and related" poll that includes this fantastic album:






Edited by BaldJean - October 16 2021 at 07:45


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Hot Rats is a masterpiece and will surely win but I'm voting for Zorn's Electric Masada which is a noisy brutal sublime slice of avant metal jazz. Adore it.
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Originally posted by dwill123 dwill123 wrote:

Zappa- Hot Rats.  Alphonse Mouzon gets an honorable mention for his collaboration with Tommy Bolin & Lee Ritenour on the  "Mind Transplant" album.  Mouzon (imo) is a terribly under rated fusion drummer.



I liked that! Thumbs Up
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Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

Zorn infiltrates the party and steals my vote. 

Yeah who let Zorn in? Oh I guess that was me. Your welcome! Monster double album with Zorn doing his best Pharoah Sanders impressions.
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Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

This might be an unpopular thought, but Hot Rats doesn't include enough jazz for it to be a jazz fusion album to me. This is coming from a jazz musician. Does it have jazz influence? Of course. There certainly are jazzy parts. But let's be real, there is more of a jazz instrumentation/"sound" than there is actual jazz on it. The long ostinato solo sections on Willie and Gumbo are not jazz. Improv does not equal jazz. It's closer to the blues. Green Genes is a slower instrumental version of the Uncle Meat track. Nothing really jazzy about it. The other three are more indicative of Zappa's "serious" compositional stylings, just with a rock/jazz instrumentation. And while they certainly have some jazzy moments (the last two tracks in particular, the rhythm section players are comping in a jazz type style), I wouldn't qualify them as "Jazz" compositions. 

Just my take. Still an important album.

That's why the polls are called Jazz & related. Hot rats is one of those weird relatives that comes over uninvited at the worst possible time.
"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Originally posted by dwill123 dwill123 wrote:

Zappa- Hot Rats.  Alphonse Mouzon gets an honorable mention for his collaboration with Tommy Bolin & Lee Ritenour on the  "Mind Transplant" album.  Mouzon (imo) is a terribly under rated fusion drummer.



This was a late addition. Not as consistent as I'd like but worthy enough to be on here. Dated like the cover at times but that's part of the charm. 
"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Points: 15030 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mellotron Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 16 2021 at 19:36
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

I hope there will be a "jazz and related" poll that includes this fantastic album:





If we don't have hope what's left?
"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

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Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Hot Rats is a masterpiece and will surely win but I'm voting for Zorn's Electric Masada which is a noisy brutal sublime slice of avant metal jazz. Adore it.

I thought this would get more votes to be honest. I mean yes it's avant Jazz pretty much but man what a powerful jaw dropping album.
"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

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Points: 15030 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mellotron Storm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 16 2021 at 19:41
I was thinking Saino from France was a bit of a guilty pleasure but not at all I just really dig their sound. Urbaniac is a world class violinist from Poland who moved to America. I always wished his wife Ursula was more prominent with her wordless vocals and this is where I got my wish on this 1973 live release. Man she can sing. Reminded me of Maurica Platon on that debut Zao record but her voice isn't as deep here.
"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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