I Will Not Go Quietly!

^ First, let me say, that I do believe that most in the Arab world either are terrorists, potential terrorists, or support the terrorists.  I do not actually advocate genocide, I only advocate exclusion.  However, I have wearied of some of the nonsensical "namby-pamby," as you put it, posts, sticking up for these people.  So, I went the opposite extreme.  However, I do stand by my opinion that they should be excluded from civilized society and if they did actually manage to wipe themselves out, I can't imagine I would shed too many a tear for them.  I do not actually advocate active genocide on our part however.  And if the Arabs wanted to exclude caucasians from Arab lands, what do I care?  Have at it I say.  But they actually would like to wipe us from the face of the Earth, and so to continue to allow them in our society is not only stupid, it is morally reprehensible in my opinion.

James Lee wrote: marktheshark wrote: C'mon James! You know damn well Bush, Blair and Putin were fed bad intell on the WMDs. That's an enstablished fact. I don't know any such thing- to what fact are you referring? Bush said he had hard evidence of WMDs and an Iraqi plan against the US when all he had were rumors and inference. No court would convict someone on the evidence he had, even if all of it had been authentic. What we're doing now is continuing the execution even after the guilty verdict has been overturned. marktheshark wrote: My old man, a 30 yr CIA official, told me after the first WTC bombing before he passed away that if we had the intelligence capabilities we had during the Cuban missile crisis, the terrorists couldn't take a dump without us knowing about it. But unfortunately over the years the intelligence community has had their hands more and more tied. I've always envied people who consistently have a direct personal connection to whatever matter was being discussed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not actually calling shenanigans on you...but I hope if we're talking about the space program next, you won't happen to mention that your next-door neighbor is an astronaut... marktheshark wrote: And what do you want anyway? 365 elections a year?! You put to much stock in polls, my friend. It's the votes that count. Yeah, I know what you're going to say, "Like they were counted in Fla, huh?" and I'm not going to go into that! maani pretty much covered that. I don't personally care- I don't really trust the will of the people any more than I trust election machines owned by a candidate's family or business partner. But the political structure of the country was intended to serve the will of the people, not dictate it. Our soldiers will all tell you that they are fighting for Democracy...I really hope they win, because we ain't got it yet. BTW: is The Doctor a physician, a PhD, or just a fan of British sci-fi? He writes well enough to be a PhD- very few typos or grammatical errors in his posts. So how does an educated man come to the conclusion that practicality dictates genocide? Perhaps the liberals really ARE all namby-pamby escapists, Doc...but your real world sounds like one any reasonable person would want to escape. I'm reminded of another PhD from Heidelberg...articulate, vocally opposed to bourgeois intellectualism, and supportive of genocide. Do you also happen to be crippled in one foot and a frustrated poet? Perhaps you could substitute a quick overview of Israeli atrocities for another viewing of Episode II...the moral narrative of the trilogy seems to have escaped you anyway.

The Doctor is a fan of British sci-fi.  I have a JD though, the only doctorate for which you are not called Doctor.  And no, the moral narrative of the trilogy has not escaped me in any way, although I do understand many of the choices that Skywalker made and would have made some, not all, of the same choices.  No, no crippled foot here.  And I've never tried my hand at poetry.

Edited by The Doctor

emdiar wrote: The big myth of course, is that Islamic fundamentalist terrorists have one agenda, that being to undermine our so called democracy. This is what Bush would have us all believe. He (or rather "they" [neocons]) drone on about animals whose only desire is to make our lives hell out of pure spite. The Idealogues of which he speaks live not to impose islamic law on western countries, nor to kill infidels for sport. The truth is, they have a far clearer agenda than that. If you think the internal destruction of our civil rights is high on their list of objectives you are misguided. Rather, it is high on the lists of our own powermad leaders, and is nothing more than the byproduct of the bombings. No, only one thing causes a young idealistic and religious person to murder innocent civilians: revenge! Bush won't tell you that, because then he'd have to tell us just why these people feel so hard done by in the first place. I in no way condone any act of murder, but let's stop pretending they're acting out of some sort of psychopathic bloodlust, and that western states are pure as the driven snow. The USA and co have actively supported Isreal in its terrorist acts against Palestinian people. Face it, "our" hands are certainly not clean in this so called war. Oh, and DOCTOR, one more thing on racial profiling; one of the four London bombers was Jamaican.

I'd love to know what terrorist acts committed by the Israelis you are referring to.  Would it be the shooting into a car of a mother and her children, killing all occupants in the car?  No wait, the Israelis were the victims in that case and the Arabs the terrorists.  Could it be the bombing of synagogues that you refer to?  No again, that would be the Israelis as victims, the Arabs as the terrorists.  Hmmmmm.  What terrorist acts by Israelis could you possibly mean?

Let's just face it folks.  I have absolutely zero respect for these so-called people and even less concern for any "plight" which may have been inflicted upon them by the big bad whites and jews.  If I had my way, they would be excluded from the civilized parts of the world, and left to kill each other instead of us.  My opinion on this will not change.  I don't care about them, I don't want them breathing my air, boarding my plane, boarding my subway car, or in my country at all for that matter.  If they all killed each other off, it would be no great loss to the world as far as I'm concerned.  For some reason, Anakin Skywalker's line in Attack of the Clones seems appropriate here "They're animals, so I slaughtered them like animals."

Edited by The Doctor

stonebeard:

So you're saying that it's perfectly fine that a completely innocent man was shot in the back?  Please tell me that you are not rationalizing that way...

MTS:

I guess you haven't heard that, by every single counting method done after the Supreme Court's decision in Gore v. Florida - by nine different newspapers (of different political stripes), and dozens of independent firms and agencies - it was clear that, had the recount been permitted to proceed, Gore would have won Florida without question.  That is fact.  So I repeat my correct claim that the Supreme Court "coronated" (or, perhaps more appropriate to current events, "anointed") Bush as president.

And there was chicanery in the 2004 elections as well.  In that case, it was Ohio that was stolen by Bush via a number of outrageous, illegal tactics.  (See Mark Crispin Miller's article in the current issue of Harper's.)

Bush campaigned as a "uniter, not a divider," yet became a divider almost immediately upon taking office, and has become without question the most divisive president since Nixon.  He campaigned as a "compassionate conservative," but has fulfilled only the second part of that phrase.  He campaigned as a "listener," but listens to no one except his neocon cronies.  He didn't even listen to over30 million people in over 30 cities in 12 countries who protested simultaneously just prior to the invasion of Iraq: the largest protest against a single person in the history of the world!  As an aside, so divisive had he become by then that the protests included over 20,000 Jews and Palestinians marching arm in arm in Jerusalem to protest the planned invasion.

And here at home Bush and his neocon cronies, supported by the so-called "Christian Right" (which, like the Moral Majority before it, is neither), are slowly but surely shredding the Constitution, evoking "executive powers" above and beyond anything Nixon ever even dreamed of, and sending this country on the path toward a proto-totalitarian quasi-theocracy.

Yes, the "terrorists" have already won.  Except the terrorists were never Arab: they were right here under our noses.

Peace.

stonebeard wrote: ^^^^ well i don't see why this is much of a problem. i can see though why Muslims would be upset by this, for they are probably the most likely to be shot. but think about it, if you're following a suspected suicide bomber, the head is the only body part to aim at. the body, if an explosive is be worn, may explode on contact, and if the legs are shot to immobilize thesuspect, he may still be able to detonate the bomb, if there were one. in this terrorist climate, i agree that it is all about fear and what fear can make us do. we have to take precautions, no matter how ugly they may be. they should not, however, infring upon the people so much that they fear for their lives

well, your stand covers plenty of ground...looks like you'll be okay no matter how it turns out. Polish ancestry, perhaps?

anyway, MtS:
So are you saying that democracy is only in effect once every four years?

approximately half the country voted Bush out of office during the last election. Since then, he's lost more support than he's gained. Therefore, a majority of the country is now by definition opposed to him. He is on public record lying to the American people about WMDs, but there's no further investigation or even much talk of impeachment (you might say lying to get us into a war is less diabolical than lying about receiving oral sex). He has ensured that he is about as untouchable as possible- what good are checks and balances when the majority of elected officials are cronies and sycophants who ignore the expressed will of the people?

Thought this would interest everyone.  It is just out of London via CBS News.  Maybe they'll shoot someone dead in NYC now, too...And Ivan - note the willingness of citizens to "help" the police by spying on neighbors and reporting them...It is happening here as well...

Peace.

BRAZILIAN SHOT BY U.K. POLICE NOT CONNECTED TO BOMB ATTACKS
WebPosted Sat Jul 23 08:45:48 2005

---British police say a man they killed on a London subway train wasn't
connected to Thursday's attempted bombings in the city's transit system.

The man, identified by police as 27-year-old Brazilian citizen Jean
Charles de Menezes, was shot in the head five times in front of dozens of
passengers on a train at the Stockwell subway station on Friday.

Police initially said the man was "directly linked" with the failed
attempts to bomb three subway trains and a bus on Thursday – two
weeks after 56 people were killed in four suicide bombings in the city's
transit system.

However, Scotland Yard issued a statement late Saturday clearing the man,
later identified as de Menezes, of involvement in the attacks.

"We are now satisfied that he was not connected with the incidents of
Thursday 21st July 2005," said the statement.

"For somebody to lose their life in such circumstances is a tragedy and
one that the Metropolitan Police Service regrets."

The police force said officers saw the man emerge from a house that they
had been staking out as part of the hunt for the bombers. They said
suspicions were aroused because he was wearing an unseasonably bulky
jacket and acting oddly, so they followed him and eventually chased him
into the station.

Officials said there will be an independent inquiry into the shooting.

Error fuels fears among Muslims

The admission of error further fueled controversy over the shooting,
which was the first public application of a policy to stop suicide
bombers devised after the Sept. 11 attacks in the United States.

It gives police the authority to shoot suspected suicide bombers first
and ask questions later.

Police authorities said officers have to aim for the heads of suspected
bombers because they could have explosives strapped to their bodies.

Critics accused the police of having a "shoot-to-kill" policy.

The shooting further increased anxiety among the country's Muslim
population. A number of Muslim leaders expressed concerns about the
possibility of racial profiling by the police, especially given the
climate of fear in London.

The shooting may undermine confidence in the police, said Azzam Tamimi,
spokesman for the Muslim Association of Britain.

Three of the four suspects identified by police in connection with the
July 7 bombings were British-born Muslims of Pakistani origin. (The
fourth suspect was a Jamaican-born British citizen.)

Police arrest 2nd man

Also on Saturday, police arrested a second man in London in connection
with Thursday's attacks.

The suspect, who has not been publicly identified, was arrested in the
south London neighbourhood of Stockwell.

It's the same neighbourhood where police detained another suspect on
Friday and where they shot and killed the man at the subway station.

Subway station evacuated

London remained in a state of constant alert throughout the day.

In one of a number of security scares, British police briefly evacuated a
subway station in east London on Saturday after a passenger reported
smelling something burning.

The Metropolitan Police investigated, but dismissed it as a false alarm.

Authorities are reported to have cancelled all vacations for police
officers, in order to boost their numbers on the streets and carry out a
massive manhunt for suspects.

Police officials said tips from the public have poured in after they
released photos of the four suspects, which were taken from closed-
circuit surveillance cameras in the British capital's subways and buses.

Investigators are continuing to examine the remains of the knapsack bombs
left on three subway cars and on the top deck of a double-decker bus
Thursday. They're looking for fingerprints or DNA from the would-be
bombers, who escaped in the panic that followed, and trying to determine
whether the explosives were connected to the July 7 suicide bombs.

Police are also sifting through a large number of witness accounts and
photos from the Oval, Shepherd's Bush and Warren Street subway stations,
as well as the Hackney Road site of the bus incident.

A statement posted on an Islamic website in the name of an al-Qaeda-
linked group claimed responsibility for Thursday's attacks. The group,
which is calling itself Abu Hafs al Masri Brigade, also claimed
responsibility for the July 7 bombings. The claims can't be verified.

Tony R wrote: This debate has boiled down to two factions: One one side are those who know their history,can back up their statements with fact and aren't just formalising a personal viewpoint key-stroke by keystroke (or "winging it" as we call it in the Uk) 2.On the other side isThe Doctor & Marktheshark. That might seem very insulting,but guys you are insulting our intelligence with this ill-thought out,fascist,racist bull! Exhibit one: (MTS) "The civil liberties you're referring to didn't even exist in 1941 when we were hording off every Japanese-American on the west coast to intern camps. " What on earth inspired you to come out with that ridiculous statement? Let's discuss the truth of that whopper: "civil-liberties"-yes they exist,so no problem there."1941"-well we know that existed."Japanese Americans being bussed off to intern camps":correctomundo! you are on a roll!"West Coast" wow,that too exists and was also where the unfortunateJapanese- Americans were sent!! So with all those factually correct statements,what led you to creating a sentence that was so egregiously incorrect? Exhibit Two:(The Doctor) "Sorry, but the bad guys are Arabs, not young white girls or professional white or black men for that matter.  If that means we discriminate against Arabs, well that's too bad for them.  Maybe the innocent Arabs will start policing their own if they get tired of the discrimination.  And I don't really care about being fair.  I care about being protected. " So,Doctor when do we start persecuting white people so they will adequately police members of the KKK,White Supremacists and other vigilante "liberty-threatening" redneck racists? Why not persecute Irish people for not "policing" the Provos and the UDA? Or so-called American Irish for donating money to the IRA? The Germans for not policing the Bader-Meinhof group or The Doctor himself (yourself) for not making any effort to police Timothy Mcveigh? You havent really thought that disgraceful piece of rhetoric out have you? So,I wish to make a proposal: Before entering into Philosophical Debate in future,dont just write the first bit of rubbish that comes into your head,dont present suppositions or wishful-thinking as fact (someone here will very quickly catch you out) and above all else,analyse your words so you can excise the horrifically racist comments before disgracing yourself in front of your peers.

First off Tony you didn't read everthing I posted here. What I meant was as far as civil liberties was that in 1941 we didn't have the civil rights protections that we have now. My point was that our country has done worse compared to now as far as infringement on freedoms. I don't condone hording Muslims off to intern camps. That would be unspeakable. James was right, what we did in 1941 was wrong and I'm not trying to justify it. But what erks me is people like Maani who think things like a search at an airport are on the same level of Gestapo activity. I just think that's over-reacting. Basically it comes down to that the majority of the people here are willing to live with it. If they didn't, the pres, senators and congressman would be voted out of office. That's how it works here. Of course some people will never admit to that. They think it's some sort of systematic conspiracy to thwart the will of the people like the pres ordering the execution of some 3000 people in 2 certain buildings in Manhattan. To me, that kind of thinking is on the same paranoid fanatical level as the terrorists themselves!

As far as freedom infringement, we don't need terrorists to spark this. This has been going on here in this country for decades. We have appointed judges (not elected, mind you) writing law from the bench right under our noses. And it's really gotten out of hand. What's the use of having senators and congressmans if they're not going to legislate? The will of the people is constantly thwarted by these activist judges. Right now there's a movement to regulate the punishment of violent crime perpetrators simply based on what they were thinking at the time of the crime. Hence my sig here on the Brain Police. That's just one example on a list of thousands. The list goes on in this dept.

I'm sorry if my remarks were misconstrude as racist. That was not my intention. To me, I don't believe in the white race, the black race, the oriental race, the Arab race, just the human race. Anything else is just a matter of national and cultural heritage. Big difference! If you seem to think that someone who is born and raised in a different country with a different color is that of a different race, then maybe you're the racist!

The big myth of course, is that Islamic fundamentalist terrorists have one agenda, that being to undermine our so called democracy. This is what Bush would have us all believe. He (or rather "they" [neocons]) drone on about animals whose only desire is to make our lives hell out of pure spite. The Idealogues of which he speaks live not to impose islamic law on western countries, nor to kill infidels for sport. The truth is, they have a far clearer agenda than that.

If you think the internal destruction of our civil rights is high on their list of objectives you are misguided. Rather, it is high on the lists of our own powermad leaders, and is nothing more than the byproduct of the bombings.

No, only one thing causes a young idealistic and religious person to murder innocent civilians: revenge! Bush won't tell you that, because then he'd have to tell us just why these people feel so hard done by in the first place.

I in no way condone any act of murder, but let's stop pretending they're acting out of some sort of psychopathic bloodlust, and that western states are pure as the driven snow. The USA and co have actively supported Isreal in its terrorist acts against Palestinian people. Face it, "our" hands are certainly not clean in this so called war.

Oh, and DOCTOR, one more thing on racial profiling; one of the four London bombers was Jamaican.

Edited by emdiar

America's government have achieved in four years what the terrorist couldn't accomplish in 50 years.

 

 

 

On behave of the terrorist, may I please thank George, Tony and Jan Peter, and other leaders of the formerly free western world, you all have been good ally's, and a heartfelt thank you is in place.

signed

Your friend Osama B.

 

goose wrote: Remember Luke Skywalker could have easily destroyed the Death Star by using the dark force. But only by choosing the good and right way could he save the universe!   Need I say more?

Oh yes, the good and right way is tops.

Although one wouldn't mind an A-wing crashing into the bridge of a Super Star Destroyer, which would impale the Death Star.

Or a Millenium Falcon and a squadron of X-wings pounding laser blasts and photon torpedoes into the core of the Death Star.

And a touch of Darth Vader grabbing the Emperor and throwing him into the generators.

So Maani, you've got my best wishes and support, but I'm neither a repentant dark Jedi, nor a 11+ mile starship one could hurl at things, nor the Rebellion star fleet. If you get the chance to trade my best wishes and support in for these things, don't hesitate to do so.

Now back to playing that Homeworld 2 mod I go...