Progarchives.com has always (since 2002) relied on banners ads to cover web hosting fees and all.
Please consider supporting us by giving monthly PayPal donations and help keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage") |
What is happening in Jerusalem? |
Post Reply 
|
Page <1 34567 16> |
| Author | |||
rogerthat 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
 Post Options
 Thanks(0)
 Quote Reply
 Posted: May 18 2021 at 04:55 |
||
There is something I have heard Muslims cite at times which I cannot confirm the veracity of but it's a concept that forbids compromise in holy matters. This was the reason given for refusal when Muslim parties were persuaded to compromise on the Ram Mandir dispute in Ayodhya. Their stand was, it's our mosque, our land and no quarter can be conceded. And of course now a right wing govt simply pressurised the Court to pass a hilarious (ok, it would be hilarious if it weren't tragic) handing over all the land for the construction of a temple. This is also why Palestine has never agreed to a settlement on Kashmir and also why Pakistan never accepted Indian offers to come to the table (even after losing, as they did in 1971). I wish the concerned leaders would rise above purely religious considerations on such issues but I suppose that would be difficult to sell to the masses after telling them over and over that you are strictly supposed to live your life as per what the Quran and Hadith have laid down.
|
|||
 |
|||
|
ssmarcus
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: September 05 2019 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 261 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 05:08 |
||
Dar al-Islam --> but again we need to be careful pinning this on Islam. In the 20th century, the majority of Arab countries were ruled by secular dictatorships. Even the PA is technically secular. These dictators will often utilize Islamic ideas and symbolism to either promote an agenda or cynically pander to the masses to maintain legitimacy.
|
|||
|
|||
|
jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 05:33 |
||
ICAHD UK Webinar – Where Do We Go From Here? – Monday 24th May at 5pm (UK Time) With Munir Nuseibah and Jeff Halper
Stories of the horrific atrocities happening in Gaza as well as within the state of Israel, East Jerusalem and the West Bank are reaching us through media reports that have spread like wildfire. The international community has responded with millions protesting in the streets, lobbying politicians, and writing letters to media platforms insisting that the truth be told and justice be done. The carnage we are witnessing is rooted in Israel’s original settler-colonial desire: to take as much of historic Palestine as achievable but with as few of the indigenous Palestinian population as possible. But where are recent events going? Will Bibi Netanyahu get his way by realizing further ethnic cleansing and garnering Israeli support that allows him to stay in power? Will Hamas rockets result in the siege on Gaza being lifted? So far, governments have not held the Israeli government accountable for its gross violations of international law and have maintained the status quo. Can things be different this time? Can Palestinians and Israelis ever co-exist? The aim of this webinar is to provide a political overview and understanding about events during May and where things might go. What are the most effective ways for international civil society to respond as it demonstrates solidarity with the Palestinian people and to ensure that our voices are heard by people and governments?   Dr Munir Nuseibah is a human rights lawyer and academic at Al Quds University, Jerusalem. He heads the Community Action Centre in Jerusalem’s Old City and he was instrumental in the establishment of the Al Quds Human Rights Clinic. Dr Jeff Halper is an anthropologist who has taught at universities around the world. A life-long activist for social justice, Jeff Halper is the Director of ICAHD, and he is on the steering committee of the One Democratic State Campaign. His latest book is Decolonizing Israel, Liberating Palestine: Zionism, Settler Colonialism, and the Case for One Democratic State. |
|||
|
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
|
|||
|
|||
|
rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 05:46 |
||
Yes, this is exactly what I mean. I see it as a problem of the tactics used by the ruling class and the clergy rather than the religion or its texts. Every religious text has passages that would be questionable today, well, most texts anyway.
|
|||
|
|||
|
Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23154 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 05:53 |
||
|
I wish PA had an ignore function
 This thread is basicallly everything wrong with the world today. A lot of folks that live far away...commenting on stuff they have no way of checking up on...and no I am most definitely not siding with anyone other than righteous people. I have friends on both sides of the fence and hear their respective cases with a ton of pics and articles attached...yet I don’t trust them to be ‘in the know’. They’re often blinded by hate or fear...which is very understandable when you really think about it. Yet I honestly don’t think either side knows what is going on. |
|||
|
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
|||
|
|||
|
ssmarcus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 05 2019 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 261 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:02 |
||
So you're committing what's called the "genetic fallacy." You are invalidating an argument not on the basis of its weaknesses, but on some characteristic of the person making the argument. So "a lot of folks that live far away" or friend of yours "blinded by fear" and therefore you can't really accept what they are saying even if what they are saying is perfectly valid. "Yet I honestly don’t think either side knows what is going on." - Listen I get, there's a lot of history to read up on and a lot of pure philosophocal/ideological thought that goes into coming up with a strong and coherent opinion on this specific conflict. Not everybody is cut out for it. But some of us are grown ups and are more than capable of having coherent and empirically founded views of the world and then engaging in discussion about it.
|
|||
|
|||
|
ssmarcus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 05 2019 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 261 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:03 |
||
It does by the way. In the emails they send you, you can opt to no longer received emails on this thread. If you no-longer wish to receive email notification for this Topic or Forum click on the link below : -
http://www.progarchives.com/ |
|||
|
|||
|
Shadowyzard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 24 2020 Location: Davutlar Status: Offline Points: 4506 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:04 |
||
I hear you, brother. Life hereabouts is too exciting (!) unfortunately. If your life in Denmark is as dull as your Netflix series "The Rain", try following our neverending sh*t.  Seriously though, you're a very kind and thoughtful person. Our "targets" are different, but goal is the same, I believe. The tension in this topic is somewhat disturbing for me too, perhaps we all should do as you said earlier. Relax... On the other hand, we share some really "enlightening" things too... I believe we can continue doing that, albeit more calmly. I'm also digging your "Nordic Wisdom", BTW. 
|
|||
|
|||
|
suitkees
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:09 |
||
You have a very peculiar and selective way of reading history. Israel was created based on land grab. The Peel Commission was a representation of the British colonial power, just as the UN in 1947 was governed by the colonial powers of that time. Why would the Arabs accept the land grab that was inflicted on them? Because some religious book promised it to an other religious community? People defending this logic should expect resistance. Clearly, you seem to want to condone and perpetuate the injustice inflicted on the Israeli Arabs and the Palestinians (continuing land grab and the suffocation of a whole population). What you call Israel's "defence" is just a continuation of an attack since 1948. There seem to be no just solution anymore, but the way Israel is trying to impose their "solution" since 1967 deserves to be combated. And the Germans killed the Jews And the Jews killed the Arabs And Arabs killed the hostages And that is the news And is it any wonder That the monkey's confused He said Mama Mama The President's a fool (Roger Waters - Perfect Sense)
|
|||
|
The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
|||
|
|||
|
Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23154 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:13 |
||
Please don’t talk down to me. I am not a little kid. My father has taught me about the history of Israel and Palestinensernes ever since I was a little kid. He even got the star of David when I was born (my name’s David)....yet what he told me doesn’t entirely line up with what I was told in school...and that changed again in University....and then again whilst talking to friends from Palestine or Israel. Then I started investigating history books from outside of the western world and yet again I was told another story. I am not talking about specifics because ‘specifics’ in this grand old storyline entirely depends on your viewpoint. I have also read far too much leaked material off of WikiLeaks to know that whatever tale the media is slinging our way...is way off any actual truth. Specifics are a way to get a heated argument going...not necessarily a way to approach one another. It shouldn’t be like this...but yeah...take another look at this thread and how you yourself just acted. How are we ever going to find a peaceful middleground when we aren’t even capable of discussing matters in a civil tongue? |
|||
|
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
|||
|
|||
|
SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:19 |
||
|
|||
|
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
|
|||
|
|||
|
ssmarcus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 05 2019 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 261 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:22 |
||
Thank for further demonstrating my point that the Arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza are, indeed, not interested in a Palestinian state under the terms most westerners, SteveG, the European Union, the UN, and the US, seem to think would appease them. As you pointed out, they see all of Israel as a stolen land. So why settle on just the West Bank and Gaza? And if that's all they wanted, they clearly could have had it. |
|||
|
|||
|
progaardvark
Special Collaborator
Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Sea of Peas Status: Offline Points: 53863 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:27 |
||
This history you are summarizing is significantly more complex than you make it out to be and is very skewed in one direction.
|
|||
|
----------
i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions |
|||
|
|||
|
ssmarcus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 05 2019 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 261 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:30 |
||
I was not trying to give a history (though I certainly could). I am demonstrating that the Palestinians are not interested in a state that agrees to the terms most westerners think would be acceptable. They have had the opportunity, they don't want it. For them, all of Israel is one big imperial land grab and it would insult their sense of justice to compromise on it.
|
|||
|
|||
|
ssmarcus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 05 2019 Location: Israel Status: Offline Points: 261 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:33 |
||
Please don’t talk down to me. I am not a little kid[/QUOTE] You literally accused the debaters here of speaking out of fear and half information (instead of engaging directly with the argument), and you have the chutzpa to accuse me of talking down to you? Ok...
|
|||
|
|||
|
tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:53 |
||
Well, you are quite selective yourself in your history , mon ami. While the UN was under the "control" of colonial powers, it as nevertheless CLEARLY going through an entire post-war de-colonization process. Most European countries (except for Portugal) were contemplating their exit from colonialism, as it became untenable in view of the Nazi credo of world domination (or Lebensraum). Most countries are based on "land grabs", justified or not, successful or not. It's called human stupidity (endlessly maintaining some destructive policy) . Had Arafat and Rabin ,whilst shaking hands, moved closer to cooperating , the world would have been a different place today. Rabin was assassinated for his decision and the PA rejected further overtures. The land grab you refer to are the consequences of War not of the creation of the Israeli state. the Occupied Territories, are called that because they are the result of occupation. But not the rest of Israel , me thinks. The declaration of independence in 1948 by Ben -Gurion clearly asks (pleads actually) that the Arabs stay and help to create a two-part country. This is a written and taped speech, it is not propaganda or lies. The Who, When, Where and What of history are rarely challengeable. Its always the WHY that is problematic. BTW, Waters is not a credible source of anything, except music, as his tendency to be vulgar and rude is quite evident. He believes all the Jews should leave that land and go to another planet, where the inhabitants (or lack thereof) will not be displaced. There are many Israelis who would accept a peaceful 2 state solution, I am not sure how many on the other side would have the courage to say so.
Edited by tszirmay - May 18 2021 at 07:01 |
|||
|
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
|
|||
|
|||
|
Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23154 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:55 |
||
You literally accused the debaters here of speaking out of fear and half information (instead of engaging directly with the argument), and you have the chutzpa to accuse me of talking down to you? Ok... [/QUOTE] That was not what I said, but I guess you can make it out to look like that if you’re searching for a fencing joust. We all speak out of fear and misinformation my good sir...the real problems though arise when we are oblivious about it. If you flip on any news from the western world you’re bombarded with stuff to fear and people/cultures to hate and blame. Our society is driven by the very same. People are much easier to sheep when they’re afraid. They’ll give up anything - including their basic human rights in order NOT to be afraid. I was not singling you out anymore than any of my longtime friends from the promised land. They don’t even live there anymore but fear for their families. How could they not? I am not looking for an argument. I want peace dammit! |
|||
|
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
|||
|
|||
|
suitkees
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 06:55 |
||
...as those same "westerners" don't seem to accept a Palestinian state under the terms most Arabs would want it to see. If the Spanish would come to France and throw me off my land and out of my house because Cervantes had promised it to them in the sequel of Don Quichotte, I would not accept it. Not now and not in 73 years. Maybe I would listen and talk if a decent solution would be proposed. Since 1967 no decent solution has been proposed, and today Netanyahu is just profiting from the Western apathy regarding this conflict by continuing the colonization (= land grab) and the suffocation of the Palestinian people in Gaza and on the West Bank, and at the same time consolidating an apartheid regime in Israel itself. We don't need objectivity here, we need a just solution, but Israel doesn't seem to want a just solution but to continue its aggressive and oppressive politics towards Arabs and the Palestinian territories. Apparently with your blessing. Edited by suitkees - May 18 2021 at 06:58 |
|||
|
The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
|||
|
|||
|
suitkees
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 07:04 |
||
Nothing is contradictory here with what I said. I even agree with everything you say here (except your cheap remark on Waters). That is why I'm talking about a "just solution". Arafat and Rabin were close, but now we are further away than ever.
|
|||
|
The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
|||
|
|||
|
tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Quote Reply
Posted: May 18 2021 at 07:05 |
||
1967? what about the Camp David accords? Arafat/Rabin, Sadat/Begin , or was that just an illusion?
|
|||
|
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
|
|||
|
|||
|
Post Reply
|
Page <1 34567 16> |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Topic Options
ssmarcus wrote: