Dream Theater - the reasons - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Valarius

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Posted: April 14 2005 at 19:22

Rob The Good View Drop Down

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Posted: April 14 2005 at 20:01

My reason for not liking them is just that. I don't like them! I don't enjoy listening to them! I don't know if there's a better reason really.

I've met a lot of people who can't stand ELP & Genesis due to their personal tastes, but hey...I live with it.

And Jesus said unto John, "come forth and receive eternal life..."
Unfortunately, John came fifth and was stuck with a toaster.

Certif1ed

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 05:11

Valarius wrote:

I still think Certif1ed takes music WAY to seriously.

I take music the way I want to, thanks. I don't think you take it seriously enough

You need to chill out man and just enjoy the songs for what they are.

??? I am very chilled out, thanks - and I always enjoy music for what it is. I don't think the majority of people do though - everyone enjoys music on whatever level they're at - and that's fine.

"For what they are" - now surely there's a lot more to a song than just the surface?

This is why I study music - and ENJOY studying music. If you don't then fine - just don't tell me how to enjoy music, OK?

People generally don't write songs so others can pick it apart and judge/analyse it second by second.

So what?

If it doesn't stand up under close scrutiny at a technical level, then that is a weakness.

Some people DO write music with a technical intent - much prog rock, for example. The best prog rock, to my mind, is half composed, half improvised - and put together so the two methods are seamless. Genesis are a great example.

I LIKE analysing every second of a piece of music - it's part of enjoying the piece in addition to simply lying back and losing myself in it.

No offence or anything man, but some of the things you say and the language you use goes in one ear and out the other for me. I just enjoy the music.

Me too. If stuff I say and my language "goes in one ear and out the other", then a) you don't have to read it, b) it's (arguably) your loss, and c) maybe I need to address that and make my points clearer - although I think I do a reasonable job when discussing my favourite topic - music!!!

I get VERY bored of discussions that go

person a; "Hey, everybody, my favourite band is X"

person b; "Nah, dude, they suck"

person a; "Well I like them coz they rock"

person c; "Yeah, x are the best"

person b; "Well I think they suck because they look stupid and their singer sounds like a gibbon in labour."

person c; "You're a ****"

person b; "**** you..."

What value is there in that?

Let's talk about the MUSIC!!!! Opinions are boring unless they're backed up with some kind of qualifying, rational thought - it doesn't have to be technical - anyone can talk about music.

Edited by Certif1ed

Swinton MCR View Drop Down

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 08:29

The Decision of the

"Union of Amalgamated Spotted Nerds and Middle Aged Analysts" (UASNMAA)

is that Dream Theater are one of the leading exponents of Prog/Metal.........

This should be recognised and accepted as FACT.

Anyone wishing to state that they personally find DT "not quite their cup of tea" are obliged to remember that UASNMAA's motto is as follows............

"We Shall smote thee squarely in the fizzog with a 1901 long handled Lock-key - see if we don't"

Edited by Swinton MCR

mr_freeze338 View Drop Down

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 15:42

"Music has 5 technical elements; Melody, harmony, rhythm, form and timbre.

To be a great musician, you need expertise in all 5 of those basics, plus the je ne sais quoi - the spirit, if you must, to create great music.

A good example is Beethoven.

DT are not good examples - we could argue about good melodies, as that is subjective, but to cut a long story short, I do not find DT's to be particularly good.

Harmonically, they do very little out of the ordinary - run of the mill stuff.

Rhythmically, again, nothing outstanding - often I find the rhythms artificial and laboured.

Form - now this is where I really find their music to be weak, as it generally shows basic understanding at best. Standard song structure is more often than not abhorred by most prog rock bands.

Timbre - well, I can't stand the keyboard sounds or the vocals. But if you like it, then I guess a point is scored.

Spirit - compare DT to ELP. ELP have truckloads of spirit. So much that the music suffers in places in favour of the energy those boys put into it. I am NOT an ELP fan - but I do recognise a band's strengths. DT's lie in clarity of execution - they play precisely what they intend to play at an amazing speed."

Well, all those elements only reinforce my reasons for liking DT. Sounds to me like they have all that, but obviously not to everyone. I'm not really sure how you could judge spirit though... DT seems pretty dramatic to me, but I mean, any band that just goes all out could have "spirit". Are you talking about the way they perform live maybe? Their music really isn't monotone.

About the form... hell, these guys went to berkley, and you're saying they have terrible song structure.

Most of this is subjective. The one thing nobody can really argue about is good technique, and my music's gotta have it.

" I get VERY bored of discussions that go..."

I would too if nobody backed up their opinion. But arguing about subjective things, once again, is just as good as saying "I don't like them".

diseasedmind View Drop Down

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 16:22

Dream Theater Own.

This Dying Soul

diseasedmind View Drop Down

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 16:29

diseasedmind wrote:

Dream Theater Own.

Sorry that wasn really relenvent but what the hell.

Someone i know hates dream theater cause he thinks all the sols are done on pc and jp/jr dont actually play them?!
Just a tad jelous

This Dying Soul

diseasedmind View Drop Down

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 16:32

james may not be the best singer anyways, but at least he gives it his all, you can tell he's putting in 100%

Their prog metal, but now their abit more metal than prog...so what? their stil a great band...
IMO that style worked for them, i rate ToT high in my list.
They ARE musical geniouses whever you like it or not

This Dying Soul

Valarius

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 16:46

I love you.

Certif1ed

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 17:01

mr_freeze338 wrote:

Well, all those elements only reinforce my reasons for liking DT. Sounds to me like they have all that, but obviously not to everyone. I'm not really sure how you could judge spirit though... DT seems pretty dramatic to me, but I mean, any band that just goes all out could have "spirit". Are you talking about the way they perform live maybe? Their music really isn't monotone.

About the form... hell, these guys went to berkley, and you're saying they have terrible song structure.

Not terrible - just not progressive. Going to Berkley has nothing to do with what a person actually learns.

Most of the tracks on "Images and Words" are in standard rock song format. That's not bad, just not adventurous, and doesn't really fit the prog category. Almost any Genesis album is a superlative for form in prog - some bands are even more adventurous.

Form is not subjective - it is absolutely measurable.

Most of this is subjective. The one thing nobody can really argue about is good technique, and my music's gotta have it.

Melody - a good melody is one that is unfamiliar yet catchy. It will generally take time to grow, rather than be immediate - otherwise it's just a "hit". The best progressive melodies occur over a long period of time and develop naturally, avoiding obvious repetition. This could turn into an esaay very easily...

Harmony is absolute. Even atonality can be described in terms of harmony. Harmony can be measured easily, and there are rules governing strong and weak harmony. The best prog rock finds ways to push existing rules, suspend or contract harmonic rhythm and prolong drama. Dream Theater use completely standard barre chords in the main, and conventional harmony with uninteresting progressions that break no barriers.

Rhythm is trickier, but suffice to say there is not much in DT that is rhythmically inventive! Listen to Kid A by Radiohead for rhythmic invention.

Timbre is almost completely a matter of taste - but like colours, some sounds work together and some don't. Some are horrible by themselves to some people, while others love them.

Ultimately any discussion about music is subjective - some people dislike any form of music, and many people dislike prog. However, there are criteria by which we can judge music's qualities, and the 5 elements I listed are what it all boils down to.

" I get VERY bored of discussions that go..."

I would too if nobody backed up their opinion. But arguing about subjective things, once again, is just as good as saying "I don't like them".

So why bother discussing music at all?

Why join in a discussion on reasons for NOT liking Dream Theater if you like them?

I ALWAYS back up my opinion, and I'm always interested in discussing music - as technically as you like. That's why I'm here

Certif1ed

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 17:04

diseasedmind wrote:

They ARE musical geniouses whever you like it or not

No they aren't.

What exactly is it that they do that is genius?

You like them, fair enough.

But genius is a bit strong to describe some shredding, some ballads and a few Metallica riffs

Reed Lover View Drop Down

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 17:07

Whilst I agree in general with Mr Cert's points re Dream Theater,I would have to point out that his comments concentrate mainly on "Images And Words". This is one of their earliest albums and surely it would be like judging Rush based on Caress of Steel.I would be interested to know his opinions of later works such as SDOIT. Big smile

Certif1ed

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 17:10

Reed Lover wrote:

Whilst I agree in general with Mr Cert's points re Dream Theater,I would have to point out that his comments concentrate mainly on "Images And Words". This is one of their earliest albums and surely it would be like judging Rush based on Caress of Steel.I would be interested to know his opinions of later works such as SDOIT. Big smile

This is true - I did state that earlier in this thread, and I have not tried to suggest that their later work is as feeble as IAW.

I will be reviewing "Scenes from a Memory - Metropolis Part II" when I can stomach more listens - I hardly ever judge an album on 1st listen unless there's something special about it - like "The Rotter's Club" (Hatfield and the North) or "May Blitz".

Edited by Certif1ed

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 17:15

Certif1ed wrote:

I will be reviewing "Scenes from a Memory - Metropolis Part II" when I can stomach more listens - I hardly ever judge an album on 1st listen unless there's something special about it

Give us a shout when you are going in for another listen-and we'll hold a candlelight vigil. LOL

mr_freeze338 View Drop Down

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 17:16

"So why bother discussing music at all?

Why join in a discussion on reasons for NOT liking Dream Theater if you like them?"

There are always discussions... but you can't exactly say it like it ISN'T subjective. These guys aren't "not following the rules of prog". All this stuff about melody, harmony, etc... these are just guidelines, and even then, just to a certain extent. It doesn't really matter what you do with them as long as it sounds right to you, and you've got the proper technique.

I'll always go ahead and discuss about particular songs. Why some seem weaker than others. But once I give out my point of view, you wouldn't see anyone else say "well then, I was wrong, and you were right". Saying "But genius is a bit strong to describe some shredding, some ballads and a few Metallica riffs" only reinforces my stance. It's like saying Yes is musical masturbation.

You make it seem like there isn't such a thing as believing one particular band has great musicians, yet not liking their music.

Edited by mr_freeze338

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 17:31

All this "stuff" about melody and harmony is the very ESSENCE of music.

You can interpret what I'm saying and twist it about however you like, but you can't escape the truths behind the facts. Progressive music IS about breaking the rules and pushing the boundaries. To do that, you have to understand where the boundaries are. Most people interested in prog are very proud of the qualities in the music - and under analysis, real prog stands up.

It does matter what you do - it may sound good to you, but if it sounds like crap to everyone else, then you're outnumbered. It's crap alright!

You're avoiding the technical discussions, so I won't push that line any further.

The truth is that the writing on "Images and Words" doesn't hold a candle to proper prog - and the fact that you're saying "But it is if I say so" just goes to show that you're not really interested in this discussion.

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 17:33

Reed Lover wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

I will be reviewing "Scenes from a Memory - Metropolis Part II" when I can stomach more listens - I hardly ever judge an album on 1st listen unless there's something special about it

Give us a shout when you are going in for another listen-and we'll hold a candlelight vigil. LOL

mr_freeze338 View Drop Down

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 17:42

"Progressive music IS about breaking the rules and pushing the boundaries."

What, so being the first band to combine Iron Maiden-like and Yes-like musci isn't pushing the boundaries? Like I said, no band can be COMPLETELY original. Metal riffs will be metal riffs. Play Rust In Piece by Megadeth and some people will say every song is the same. What do the metal heads say? That's right.

"You can interpret what I'm saying and twist it about however you like, but you can't escape the truths behind the facts."

What you're saying isn't "truth", it's opinion.

"Most people interested in prog are very proud of the qualities in the music - and under analysis, real prog stands up."

What, I'm not interested or proud now? If the first few prog bands were so great, yet by definition were "immature", how was their understanding of "prog" much better than DT's?

"It does matter what you do - it may sound good to you, but if it sounds like crap to everyone else, then you're outnumbered. It's crap alright!"

OOOOO, this'll get some replies. I thought you of all people would know it doesn't sound like crap to everyone else, seeing as they're incredibly popular on this website alone. Who's outnumbered here? Take a look at how many positive reviews DT has. Are all these people "ignorant" to what real prog is? Riiiiight.

"You're avoiding the technical discussions, so I won't push that line any further."

That's bullsh*t.

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 17:45

Certif1ed wrote:

Reed Lover wrote:

Certif1ed wrote:

I will be reviewing "Scenes from a Memory - Metropolis Part II" when I can stomach more listens - I hardly ever judge an album on 1st listen unless there's something special about it

Give us a shout when you are going in for another listen-and we'll hold a candlelight vigil. LOL

Hey,Cert Angry

That monkey looks just like me! Cry

And I have no friends Cry Cry

And Snow Dawg says I'm not even amusing Cry Cry Cry

Tongue

Certif1ed

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Posted: April 15 2005 at 18:10

mr_freeze338 wrote:

"Progressive music IS about breaking the rules and pushing the boundaries."

Iron Maiden? Pushing the boundaries?

I agree that no band can be completely original - most bands write their own riffs, however.

Rust in Piece is stylistically similar throughout - what's that got to do with anything? Megadeth wrote their own riffs.

"You can interpret what I'm saying and twist it about however you like, but you can't escape the truths behind the facts."

What you're saying isn't "truth", it's opinion.

Really? I thought I was the fount of all knowledge!

"Most people interested in prog are very proud of the qualities in the music - and under analysis, real prog stands up."

What, I'm not interested or proud now? If the first few prog bands were so great, yet by definition were "immature", how was their understanding of "prog" much better than DT's?

I don't get where you're going with this - the first prog bands invented the genre. DT don't play prog on Images and Words, they play mid 1980's style metal with keyboards and ballads. I have yet to hear any actual prog from DT.

"It does matter what you do - it may sound good to you, but if it sounds like crap to everyone else, then you're outnumbered. It's crap alright!"

Read what I said again - did I mention DT in that paragraph?

"You're avoiding the technical discussions, so I won't push that line any further."

That's bullsh*t.

OOOOO - what devastating repartee!

You are avoiding the "technical stuff", you know. You're trying to take this discussion into an opinions exchange instead of focussing on the actual subject of this thread.