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Topic: Bad drumming Posted: April 03 2016 at 04:43
Why all the hate for Lars (Metallica) ?? He was a pioneer, someone many budding Thrash-Head drummers could look up to. Death Magnetic is my ultimate fave 'tallica album, and Lars is in fine form. Why heap the sh*t on such a great drummer ?? (..........in some ways, I think, the 'Master' shall be judged accordingly.....) .........o.k. - he pales in comparison to Tomas Haake.......but, Tomas was inspired by Lars all those years ago........)
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Posted: March 28 2016 at 14:27
Hi,
GreatBeyonder wrote:
Keith Moon is to drummers what Jimi Hendrix is to guitarists. You can't really compare him to what other musicians were doing with that instrument.
I do not think that Keith Moon is a bad drummer. What he did, however, became a bit clearer to me, a bit later when I played Gong (with Moerlin) and Guru Guru (Dance of the Flames) to my roomate who was a magnificent drummer, with a good feel and his hero was Carl Palmer. Tom, was concerned that both Moon, Moerlin and Neumeier, did not sustain a bottom end as is usually the case for most rock'n'roll ... they did their own thing, which ended up enhancing the very music they were involved with. And it "enhanced it", simply by making it so different from all the other pieces of music ... when you can easily turn on the radio this morning, and the first 3 of the 5 songs you hear have exactly the same drumming, with various breaks in between. You did not get that in those days much ... and it was one of the things that helped illustrate the new music.
The guitar player in Tom's band, who was very proficient with his Gibson, made a note that he would be scared of playing with Neumeier, Moon and Moerlin, because he had no idea what they were doing ... and what they would do next, but he was amazed at how the music sounded so together with all that stuff going on. He even tried to learn Steve Hillage's solo with Daevid Allen in the "You" album.
All in all, the one drummer I like to take to task, is Mike, of the old Dream Theater, who is a magnificent time keeper, but he is afraid to get out of his easier zone, to do something else, and then he does that piece of TFTO with Transatlantic, and he ends up showing how much better of a drummer he has become, by actually doing a very nice job, and better than his counter part work with DT in many cases. One might say ... noooo, he has to be like this here and like that there ... but the mark of a true drummer, is not just his time keeping, but his ability to COLOR the music ... so it works on many more levels as a piece of music. To my ears, this is not happening all the time, except on the "breaks" and "transitions", which means that in between, it's the same pattern on a different time 60bpm, instead of 90bpm?
Is that all drumming is?
The news for us all, is that no ... it isn't. And some of these outlandish folks are usually the ones breaking the "rules" and refusing to do what is expected of them, and Keith Moon made that clear on his audition with The Who ... and you have to believe/understand that Pete and the rest thought ... this will help us define our music!
It takes courage to be different!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Alan Whiteīs just pounding without real meaning on "Relayer", where he and the band as well totally lost their way, both musically and technically, thus their worst "classic" album. He starts to progress shortly after and finally reached his full potential and skills in 1976-78, in "Tormato" he really kicks major ass (exist a couple of great live bootlegs from the era). Finally Alan become a decent rock drummer and one of the very best drummers (solid + versatility). In the seventies, of course.
Au contraire! And in the words of former L.A. Dodger skipper Tommy Lasorda, "Oh, that's a bunch of bull!" Relayer was a fine respite from all things Wakeman, and White really pulled out all the stops to help make it so, lending skillful prog "pounding" as well as some invigorating jazzy touches here and there to refreshingly round out the album. He went on to steal the spotlight on Yesshows' The Gates of Delirium which reaffirmed just how GREAT Relayer was, and is. And what the hell is a "worst 'classic' album"? In conclusion, let's sum up Tormato here: "Oh! it was OK!! But there were no clowns, no tigers, lions or bears, candy-floss, toffee apples, no clowns."
I donīt take you so seriously really
Listen son, you are wasting your time. I donīt give a damn about your opinions on music, arts, politics or whatever.
There is one good thing in "Relayer", the "Soon" section. I have never liked "Relayer". Thereīs nothing Yes, not the grandeaur of classic Yes left, NOTHING moves me, except "Soon" with its usual very beautiful singing from Jon Anderson, Steve Howeīs brilliant sound and solo. Just dull technical pomposity. This album is Waste of Talent & studio time. One of Alan Whiteīs best input ? Surely not. I have heard many records where he is much better. "Skillful prog pounding... and some... jazzy touches here and there". Your words. Everybody can bound (Moon) and have jazzy touches here and there. Exactly. Here and there. LOL. Yes tried fusion but ended with harsh and unbalanced sound. Where they left melody ? Who cares for melody. Great idea for anti-war hymn but achieves nothing but technical virtuosity and lacks awful lot in musicality. They sacrificed it for jamming, cheap sound effects, very technical but so dull soloing. Aimless pouching here & there mostly. Jonīs vocals gets occasionally very difficult to hear, what is he really saying. Nevermind lyrics, they are spiritual nonsense anyway. For the first time in history Yes sounded very unpleasant. Yesīs rock bottom is right there.
THE finest of Yes is "Tales from Topographic Oceans", 1973. By light years.
You seem to talk a load of bullsh*t about "Tormato" , well I donīt care for your perversions.
Itīs an extraordinary album in Yesīs history and anchors Yesīs legacy. The last great Yes album, and the last great Prog album from the 70īs. Has always since January 1979 sounded fantastic in my systems during the decades. Itīs the Rough Diamond Yes. I revisit it in regular basic and I never get tired of it. I stopped listening their 1974 output a long time ago. In "Tormato" thereīs absolutely nothing that isnīt Yes. Itīs just another brilliant example of the genius of this extraordinary group of very skilled & very very able musicians. Way ahead of time and anybody else really. To me it has always been just incredible piece of music, and much more adventurous in everything, bold and beautiful, yet very cold and remote at the same time. Surely something else at the time. Yes were searching the boundaries of the sounds and musical landscapes, they went where no-one had gone before. The future times. And Yes went back to square one: short songs & melody. Does their first album ring any bell ? Thereīs some melody. Itīs Yes at finest, the starting point. Melody. Music is Melody.
Here Alan White finally reaches his pinnacle, both in studio and onstage. Jon Anderson, Steve Howe and Chris Squire in particular shine here. A certain bootleg from "Tormato Tour" defines it. In terms of musicality and performance itīs the very finest of Yes. Alongside "Yessongs", 1972.
As for clowns, they came much later, apparently.
Edited by Son.of.Tiresias - March 28 2016 at 10:39
You may see a smile on Tony Banksī face but thatīs unlikely.
When Bruford left Yes, the "classic" sound left with him. White may be an adequate drummer, but he ain't no Bruford.
Keith Moon was, as he put it, "the best Keith Moon-style drummer in rock." His technical skills may not be on par with Bozzio, but Keith's style practically defined the Who in the classic years. Yeah, overplaying is at times just as bad as poor playing, but Keith overplayed his way to the top spot in Best Drummer polls to this day.
Bill Bruford explains very carefully his leaving in "YesYears" docu. For him it always was very hard to fit his sound with Chris Squireīs very different bass playing because he usually got to the higher notes rather than lower ones, basic bass playing that is. And he realized that the formula has came to itīs end and didnīt waste his time no more. His first love was jazz so he became and always wanted to be a jazz drummer. Thank goodness he was very smart to leave Yes and just received more space & time in a band format to express his real character & superior skills as a musician. He started to blossom with very skillful & very very adventurous King Crimson. The Bruford/Wetton/Cross/Fripp (and Muir, of course) era is something extraordinary & magical in experimental Prog, second to none within the genre. Yes needed simpler, basic rhythm drumming and Alan White was the man. And his input on "Tales from Topographic Oceans" is quite amazing, as a "basic" rock drummer.
Edited by Son.of.Tiresias - March 27 2016 at 14:29
You may see a smile on Tony Banksī face but thatīs unlikely.
an interesting example of wrongly cited bad drumming is this:
what the drummer does between 4:48 and 4:50 one commentator of the video called "losing it" and another "completely getting out of the pocket". that's of course not true at all; what he does there is called "syncopating"
Exactly. To my senses he doesnīt "lose it", he gets progressive. Prog can be found in various places.
This commentator must hate Meshuggah.
You may see a smile on Tony Banksī face but thatīs unlikely.
When Bruford left Yes, the "classic" sound left with him. White may be an adequate drummer, but he ain't no Bruford.
Keith Moon was, as he put it, "the best Keith Moon-style drummer in rock." His technical skills may not be on par with Bozzio, but Keith's style practically defined the Who in the classic years. Yeah, overplaying is at times just as bad as poor playing, but Keith overplayed his way to the top spot in Best Drummer polls to this day.
Keith Moon is one of my favourite drummers.... and honestly to hell with technical prowess when you've got feel and exuberance like he did. Add to that: I've never heard anyone duplicate Moon's playing. I've heard a lot of folks coming awfully close to Bruford, Peart and Bozzio but there is a mental and completely wild side to Keith that is nigh on impossible to reproduce. Zac Starkey, while a great drummer in his own right, doesn't stand a chance up against the real kahuna imo.
The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
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Posted: March 25 2016 at 07:03
Alan White on Tales from Topographic Oceans. I like him on other records, but Yes didn't seem to realize yet that he just wasn't Bill Bruford and were still arranging their songs like he was. To be fair, that is NOT a great record to start your first day with the band on.
When Bruford left Yes, the "classic" sound left with him. White may be an adequate drummer, but he ain't no Bruford.
Keith Moon was, as he put it, "the best Keith Moon-style drummer in rock." His technical skills may not be on par with Bozzio, but Keith's style practically defined the Who in the classic years. Yeah, overplaying is at times just as bad as poor playing, but Keith overplayed his way to the top spot in Best Drummer polls to this day.
I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there.....
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Posted: March 23 2016 at 13:06
Son.of.Tiresias wrote:
Alan Whiteīs just pounding without real meaning on "Relayer", where he and the band as well totally lost their way, both musically and technically, thus their worst "classic" album. He starts to progress shortly after and finally reached his full potential and skills in 1976-78, in "Tormato" he really kicks major ass (exist a couple of great live bootlegs from the era). Finally Alan become a decent rock drummer and one of the very best drummers (solid + versatility). In the seventies, of course.
Au contraire! And in the words of former L.A. Dodger skipper Tommy Lasorda, "Oh, that's a bunch of bull!" Relayer was a fine respite from all things Wakeman, and White really pulled out all the stops to help make it so, lending skillful prog "pounding" as well as some invigorating jazzy touches here and there to refreshingly round out the album. He went on to steal the spotlight on Yesshows' The Gates of Delirium which reaffirmed just how GREAT Relayer was, and is. And what the hell is a "worst 'classic' album"? In conclusion, let's sum up Tormato here: "Oh! it was OK!! But there were no clowns, no tigers, lions or bears, candy-floss, toffee apples, no clowns."
"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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Posted: March 23 2016 at 08:41
Son.of.Tiresias wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
an interesting example of wrongly cited bad drumming is this:
what the drummer does between 4:48 and 4:50 one commentator of the video called "losing it" and another "completely getting out of the pocket". that's of course not true at all; what he does there is called "syncopating"
Exactly. To my senses he doesnīt "lose it", he gets progressive. Prog can be found in various places.
an interesting example of wrongly cited bad drumming is this:
what the drummer does between 4:48 and 4:50 one commentator of the video called "losing it" and another "completely getting out of the pocket". that's of course not true at all; what he does there is called "syncopating"
Exactly. To my senses he doesnīt "lose it", he gets progressive. Prog can be found in various places.
You may see a smile on Tony Banksī face but thatīs unlikely.
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Posted: March 23 2016 at 04:40
an interesting example of wrongly cited bad drumming is this:
what the drummer does between 4:48 and 4:50 one commentator of the video called "losing it" and another "completely getting out of the pocket". that's of course not true at all; what he does there is called "syncopating"
Edited by BaldJean - March 23 2016 at 04:41
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
Poor Alan White has lost a lick or two with age, I don't think his drumming on the latest Yes releases "Fly From Here" and "Heaven and Earth" is up to his earlier efforts, which were stunning (especially TFTO and "Relayer").
I hate to call it "bad" drumming however. Prog seems to be characterized, above all, by excellent drumming.
Bruford, Collins, Moerlin etc., the list is long!
Alan Whiteīs just pounding without real meaning on "Relayer", where he and the band as well totally lost their way, both musically and technically, thus their worst "classic" album. He starts to progress shortly after and finally reached his full potential and skills in 1976-78, in "Tormato" he really kicks major ass (exist a couple of great live bootlegs from the era). Finally Alan become a decent rock drummer and one of the very best drummers (solid + versatility). In the seventies, of course.
You may see a smile on Tony Banksī face but thatīs unlikely.
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Posted: February 19 2016 at 09:43
Flight123 wrote:
bucka001 wrote:
Flight123 wrote:
Genesis were also right to kick out John Mayhew (and probably the amateurs that came before him...)
I agree about Mayhew, they needed a better drummer, but I don't think the other two got kicked out. In fact, I remember reading a quote from Ant Phillips where he stated that one (maybe Chris Stewart) was a fine drummer. Also, I think John Silver would have stayed on but he opted out of the band to further his studies (or something, it's been a long time since I read up on Genesis history). They certainly liked John Silver, he was a guest at Tony Banks' wedding a few years later in '71/'72 and posed for a pic w/the current members of Genesis (Nursery Cryme period) and Ant Phillips. John Mayhew wasn't invited, I'm guessing it would have been awkward ("Hey, you know how we fired you from the band not too long ago and broke your heart? Well... you wanna come to my wedding?")
Indeed, they were school friends. I think Jonathan King instigated Stewart's removal and clearly Silver had no interest in a career in music.
I don't think Mayhew was as bad as people make out. He did well for that album, a very very precious album, that perhaps would not be precious in quite the same way. He lost out in the mix that much is clear. He was not providing time for band. I'm not sure that was his fault, because the others more involved with the writing were also designing his parts, manually trying to make a very simple jazz style drummer sound like Michael Giles. He was slightly behind the pace of the rest of the band like he was accompanying them and lacked authority in attacking the beat, but I tend to see that as his not being as active in the writing. He was there more as a follower as I understand. Banks' keyboards seem to me to find a place ever so slightly ahead of the beat. I read somewhere also that Mayhew complained about Gabriel being off time with his single base drum. Clearly Mayhew was not the anchor the band needed in any case, but I'm not prepared to say that he couldn't have done well elsewhere in some other group dynamic and writing style. It was explained in at least one interview that he was slow to learn the patterns they came up with. And yes, Phil Collins was on an altogether higher level.
Edited by HackettFan - February 19 2016 at 09:46
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Bad drumming
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GreatBeyonder wrote:
