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The Dark Elf View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 20:08
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

 

I've asked for this asinine thread to be closed, but I guess things have to get out of hand before that happens. So be it. 

Ah, ok, so the will to commit so that this thread is closed is clear. 


The only thing that is clear is repetitive inanity, historical butchery, semantic gymnastics and pretzel logic. Prog Archives should not be a place for this nonsense. And it is nonsense. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 20:03
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

 

I've asked for this asinine thread to be closed, but I guess things have to get out of hand before that happens. So be it. 

Ah, ok, so the will to commit so that this thread is closed is clear. 

Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:51
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

I hope we do not get anymore of this 'blame the victim' nonsense from the previous page. Reminds me of when people say a rape victim was just 'asking for it'. I find such thinking to be extremely disturbing.

I have no problem if you consider Zelenskij a hero. 

On the other hand, I hope that you and Steve G do not come here yet with the aim of misrepresenting what I have written (as you did here with me), insulting (as Steve has already done to me) by calling me anti-democratic, distorting any reasoned reflection with the aim of closing also this thread.

I would advice you and Steve, if you are unable to refrain from insults or meaningless comparisons like the one you just did, to open your own thread on the war.

I claim my right to say what I think of Zelenskij, that is, that I consider him a dangerous leader, who is campaigning in an offensive campaign to get NATO and Europe into war, causing World War III. I thought he was like that before the war, and now at my eyes he doesn't become a hero of democracy because Ukraine is being invaded by Putin.
And there is no possible comparison with the raped woman who asked for it in what I have written.

Democracy is just that: expressing our political views, whatever they may be. 
Pretend that Zelensky is free from criticism is undemocratic. 

What interests me in this war is precisely to safeguard democracy, which is the first thing that fails with war. With the war begins the censorship, the single thought begins: the bad and the good etc. the complex analyzes are over, everything has to be simplified and cheered.

I am foreign to this logic, and therefore I criticize Europe that sells arms to Ukraine, including Italy (which in its Constitution says that it repudiates war as a tool for resolving conflicts), I criticize the blackout of two Russian sites , Russia Today and Sputnik, because this makes us Europeans less democratic, and less informed, because in order to discover the propaganda of the two fronts, it is also necessary to analyze what the official Russian sources are writing, I criticize the Italian news programs that every evening give space to Zelenskij who punctually tries to terrify us by saying that Putin has a plan to strike Chernobyl without anyone explaining that there is no evidence, and so on.

Fortunately, there are also politicians and intellectuals who do not participate in this war logic where reasoning and analysis are no longer possible.





Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 16 2022 at 19:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:33
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbzV1it1YPY&ab_channel=GlobalNews

The absurdity of Russian authoritarianism 
Arrested for holding a blank sheet of paper, what a wonderful police state. I'm sure the Ukrainians are looking forward to all this.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:30
Approximately four million Ukrainians were starved to death by Stalin. This is an unequivocal fact. You can't gloss it over, you can't quote dead Communist platitudes to make it anything other than genocide. The Ukraine owes Russia nothing. There is no "history" that makes the Ukraine part of Russia other than domination. Ukraine is a sovereign country invaded by a megalomaniacal narcissist. You can vomit out whatever whataboutisms you wish. You can propound gibberish logic regarding the imaginary fears of a paranoid 5'6'' a**hole. But Putin and the Putin apologists on this thread can go f*ck themselves. 

I've asked for this asinine thread to be closed, but I guess things have to get out of hand before that happens. So be it. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:28
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbzV1it1YPY&ab_channel=GlobalNews

The absurdity of Russian authoritarianism 


Edited by tszirmay - March 16 2022 at 19:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:21
Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hussain, Kim Jong, Putin. They never end.

Edited by SteveG - March 16 2022 at 19:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:19
And of course what is never mentioned is that Ukraine asked to be a member of NATO and not the other way around. Poland and Hungary asked for membership hours after getting rid of the Warsaw Pact troops that went back to Russia in 1991. Proof in Ukraine's case: Both France and Germany vetoed (I repeat VETOED) their candidacy on more than one occasion. One surely can't blame the Yanks for that? 

Furthermore, NATO bombing of Serbia was , as I had stated earlier in another fossilized thread, began 4 years after Srebenica , was because the mighty EU did not want to intervene. Why? France was leaning to the Serbian side while Germany was instead more favourable to the Croatians. Perhaps if NATO would withdraw to Omaha, Juno, Gold and Utah beaches back in Normandy , Putin may feel reassured to rein in his paranoid war machine (as well as some of our more fervent orators on this thread to be right) . 


Edited by tszirmay - March 16 2022 at 19:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:12
In Putin's mind: " Russia without Ukraine is a country, but Russia with Ukraine is an empire" . But in Russia, 110 people own 35% of the wealth , the most unequal country in the world , except for North Korea where 1 person owns 100% of the wealth. The 110 want an empire again. The real Putin emerged in February 2007 at the Munich conference. What he said then is what he is doing now, just like with Mein Kampf.......He is not a hypocrite but he is a professional liar (as per his career in Dresden) . 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:11
I hope we do not get anymore of this 'blame the victim' nonsense from the previous page. Reminds me of when people say a rape victim was just 'asking for it'. I find such thinking to be extremely disturbing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:09
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Russian military leader told to shut up on Russian TV for wanting to honor fallen Russian soldiers. The Russian government and state controlled news does not want the Russian people to know the truth about what is going on.



When a loud mouth little fascist oligarch wannabe, with his playboy looks, starts yelling at a Russian officer, you wonder why he doesn't shave his head, take his shoe off and start banging it on the podium, saying "We Will bury you" (the Ukrainians). Despicable......Angry
Yeah, arrogant pretty boy yelling at a soldier who is out there doing his dirty work ... disgusting.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:01
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Lorenzo, I agree with a lot of what you post elsewhere, but here you really don’t speak for the many, but for the few. Perhaps in Italy it is true that most share your view - though you are the only Italian in my circle of friends who thinks this way. You also speak as if you’ve been sucked in by either pro-Russian or anti-US propaganda, when you talk about Crimea being for all intents and purposes Russian, or that the troubles in the Donbas are down to Ukrainian repression.

The only reason Russia is “to all intents and purposes” Russian, is because no one offered to help Ukraine defend it against invasion and occupation in 2014, and that’s in part because (and I am going to sound like a Putin sympathiser here, which I assure you I’m not) the 2014 invasion and occupation is as much the fault of the West as it is Russia. Crimea became part of the Ukraine in 1991. The West drew up new borders, and allocated territories to countries in a manner similar to the aftermath of WWI - and just as that was one cause of WWII, so was Crimea being given to Ukraine one cause of the 2014 invasion.

It may not be the size of Russia, but in Europe, Ukraine is still a larger country in the region, and as such definitely consists of various regions and cultures that can be very different from each other. So just as there are regions elsewhere in Europe, like the Basque and Catalonia, that feel separate in some ways from the countries they exist within, the same can be said for Ukraine. It’s undeniable that some regions were not entirely happy with the way borders were (re)drawn, and that modern Ukraine has regions where the majority are Russians, not Ukrainians. The Maidan was practically unanimously supported in Western Ukraine, but no much in other parts. Thus the 2014 conflict, and the initial incursions into two Ukrainian “separatist states” as “peacekeepers” is partly a consequence of Euromaidan.

Which doesn't mean I justify Russia's or the West's behaviour then, or now. Both sides were and are wrong in different ways. Both sides have little knowledge of each other, and both sides heavily rely on prejudices, stereotypes and propaganda. The only victims are the innocent Ukrainians and Russians, of which there are both This is a war by the leaders of one country, and not of the peoples who live in either.

Now, before someone goes to correct me, and say that Crimea became part of Ukraine in 1954, yes and no. The borders were changed, but it was a purely symbolic change within the USSR in 1954. It was not meant to mean anything more than, for an analogy, giving someone a key to the city. Crimea becoming Ukrainian in 1954 was as real as the Queen being the head of state in the UK. Symbolic only. At the time, the thought that the USSR might one day be dissolved was unthinkable, and borders between SSRs were largely arbitrary and meaningless.

From Putin’s point of view (whether correct or not) Crimea has always been predominantly Russian, and a Russian state. Ukrainians are not only a minority, but the smallest minority within the region. Apart from the symbolic change in 1954, Crimea has been considered Russian since sometime in the 1700s/1800s (and yes, I’m admitting I can’t remember the exact year, but I know I can Google and find it out should you wish me to).

Again, I’m not saying Putin was right to invade Crimea (he wasn’t), but it was potentially inevitable and preventable. As were the recent “peacekeeping activities” in two further Russian majority regions of the Ukraine. 

What has happened since is wrong on every level, but what happened prior (from 2014 onwards) was still wrong, but in some ways understandable. Again, I am not exonerating Putin, nor suggesting I agree with anything he has done.

But even though the majority of Crimeans are Russian, many of them (and all the Ukrainians and Tartars) consider Crimea to be Ukrainian. I mentioned regions like the Basque and Catalonia, but realistically Crimea and the Donbas are nothing like this, and have never attempted to become separatist/independent/Russian states. Some people within those regions may have expressed a wish for independence, but by no means were they a majority - and much of the supposed independent movement is either pure propaganda, or comes from Russia, rather than from the Russians who have lived peacefully in the regions.

Lest it be confused, I am against any illegal and aggressive occupation of one country by another, whether that is Ukraine by Russia, Palestine by Israel, or Armenia by Azerbaijan - to name just three. There are sympathisers for both sides of all those invasions/occupations. Why? Because there is no black and white.

Putin is wrong. Putin is guilty. To assume that he is the only wrong party, and the only guilty party is disingenuous at best. But the guilt of the West in events leading up this is now irrelevant. Putin has gone to war, and that is black and white. The guilt is on him alone for that one, and why should Ukraine have to negotiate to his terms. Quite simply, they shouldn’t.

Crimea is Ukraine. The Donbas is Ukraine. That is non-negiotable for Ukraine, and I can completely understand why.

We should be giving far more support to the Ukraines/Palestines/Armenias of this world. (And yes, it is slightly ironic that Russia is aiding Armenia against the Azerbaijani aggression.)

And for sure, the UK government should not still be making arms and fuel deals with Syria.

And there are conflicts in Africa and across the world.

But whataboutism and relativism have no place here. This is war, and despite earlier entreaties by some to the contrary, this is genocide.

I posted on FB on 8 March that I believed that the only reason Putin has consistently declared that Russians and Ukrainians are one people, is to mitigate against claims of genocide. I have seen several people claim that it is impossible to suggest Putin is committing genocide, simply because he keeps making such statements about how Russian and Ukrainian people are one.

Yet targets for shelling have been hospitals (including maternity hospitals), schools, and residential blocks. And despite talk of humanitarian corridors and ceasefires, I have had multiple reports from either friends in Ukraine, or friends throughout the world who are attempting to help their friends in Ukraine, that when these corridors are opened at all, they are allowing safe(r) passage only into Russia.

The very day after I made that post, another maternity hospital was shelled, and because there was video footage of this one, it seemed to hit the news the way previous attacks of hospitals and schools had not.

I have a friend in who is trying to help family in Ukraine. They are stuck in their cold apartment (which no longer has windows or electricity), and who have watched other residents targeted as they attempt to flee. They want to leave, but can’t. Thanks to financial help from my friend, they have money to buy food (as they have almost run out), but leaving their apartment to attempt to get it is risking their lives.

I know some people who seem to think that Ukraine is not innocent in all this, and brought some of this upon themselves. Well, regardless of whether you think that or not, surely you recognise that it wasn’t the Ukrainian people. The ones who are dying. Even if you think Ukraine’s government has been wrong in the past, the Ukrainian people are innocent. Stop blaming the people of a country for the actions of its leader. This goes for Russia and Belarus, too. 

I have seen countless posts on FB from friends around the world who are attempting to help friends and family, or complete strangers, in Ukraine. Ceasefires and humanitarian corridors are reported, but have never meaningfully existed (except to allow travel to Russia).

Putin has taken refugees from Ukraine, by opening up corridors to the country for Russians in Ukraine, and supposedly Ukrainians desperate enough to take that route (and though it is hard to find  accurate reporting on this, it would appear that very few Ukrainians have taken this option), and he has been targeting the next generation of Ukrainians with schools and maternity hospitals targeted.

And as was posted in this thread, one of the latest atrocities was that a monastery that had opened itself to refugees was targeted. Why? Well clearly not because it has any military capabilities. Rather, I expect, it was because upwards of 500 displaced Ukrainians were seeking refuge there, over half of which were children.

Due to shelling, there are many internally displaced Ukrainians. If they are unable to leave Ukraine, all they can do is seek safer refuge within the country. And those safer refuges are not safe, as seen by the shelling of the Sviatogorsk Lavra monastery. 

This is genocide.

I stand with Ukraine.

💙💛🇺🇦💙💛



Word! Well said! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 18:57
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Russian military leader told to shut up on Russian TV for wanting to honor fallen Russian soldiers. The Russian government and state controlled news does not want the Russian people to know the truth about what is going on.


When a loud mouth little fascist oligarch wannabe, with his playboy looks, starts yelling at a Russian officer, you wonder why he doesn't shave his head, take his shoe off and start banging it on the podium, saying "We Will bury you" (the Ukrainians). Despicable......Angry
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 18:56
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Ten citizens standing in a bread line gunned down by putin's army.

Yes, just when you thought that bombing the theater couldn't be worse, then this happens.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 18:20
Ten citizens standing in a bread line gunned down by putin's army.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 18:01
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Whatever reason you have to malign Zelenskyy can only be born from your anti democracy, pro socialist stance. To freedom loving people, he is a hero in an era when so few exist

The logic of war:

if anyone doesn't praise Zelenskyj, if anyone doesn't consider him a hero, then ...

this can only be born from his anti democracy, pro socialist stance....

Confused
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 17:46
Whatever reason you have to malign Zelenskyy can only be born from your anti democracy, pro socialist stance. To freedom loving people, he is a hero in an era when so few exist

Edited by SteveG - March 16 2022 at 17:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 17:14
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:


Nick, the history of Ukraine, and of Crimea, and the relations of these areas with Russia are very complex.

In any case, Crimea is an area with a Russian majority, and occupied by Russia. Whether this is right or not can be debated, but the fact remains that nothing now but a war against Russia can change this state of affairs.
So I don't see how we can think that Crimea should go back to being an integral part of Ukraine.

I have no nationalistic sentiment, and no sympathy for Putin. I'm just saying that Crimea is already Russian. And it is not an occupation like the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories, because Crimea has a Russian majority. The Ukrainian wife of one of my best friends agrees that Crimea is Russian.
And I'm talking about a girl whose parents are living now in Kiev, under the Russian bombs.

The Donbass republics have been in revolt for many years and Ukraine in Minsk had signed pacts that guaranteed them semi-independence. You can believe what you want, in a pro-Nato or pro-Putin narrative, but in those regions there was a repression by the Ukraine, which also used the famous neo-Nazi battalions. This was reported by the Western press in recent years, not the Russian press.

So, even in that case, I don't see how you can think, now that Russia has invaded Ukraine starting from the defense of those republics, how these areas can return to Ukraine. Only a supporter of Ukrainian nationalist propaganda can think this: but then Ukraine would become the aggressor who wants to annex land that is no longer its own.
I believe that in principle there's only one authority to decide about where Crimea and the Donbass region belongs, and that's the people of these regions. From the outside nobody is entitled to say they "are really Russian" (or Ukrainian for that matter). We should not play Putin's game to derive something like a "true nature" of regions by shady historical or ethnical arguments ("Crimea is Russian"). And neither can this be determined by, say, referenda or declarations in the midst of war with people having a gun pointed at their head, as Putin seems to believe.

If I say that I can imagine that the Ukrainians accept to lose these regions, I say this grudgingly and for purely pragmatic reasons, to save lives and to avoid further escalation. Democracy is an ideal but where it doesn't exist, other considerations will decide what happens, which is acknowledging reality, nothing else. For sure I will not buy into any reasoning that states some kind of "natural right" of anyone there (neither Russia nor Ukraine nor Ukrainian wives of best friends) other than the people of these regions themselves, and of course if they are split on this, it's a tough problem they have to deal with themselves ultimately. The fact that people are displaced and population willfully changed by external forces doesn't help either.

It is clear that only the Ukrainians can decide their fate, and speaking of this matter, I would like to know how many of them approve of Zelenskij's war policy: it is wrong to assume that they agree with him.

Said this, I think that:
1) If you want to negotiate, you must be willing to give something, otherwise there can be no negotiation
2) If you want to wage war to the bitter end, it is not indifferent to European nations: they will have to host many refugees
3) an outside observer like me, just as he judges Putin's war as a criminal, also judges the behavior of Zelenskij, the European Union, Italy, etc. In my opinion Zelenskij is proving to be an unreliable and dangerous politician because every day he sends false news (Chernobyl), creates provocative videos (Paris bombed), asks for NATO to enter the war, offends Europe which should show pride and go to war etc.
4) Crimea has been occupied by Russia for years, and in any case its ethnic-linguistic composition, as far as I know, is predominantly Russian. Now, a referendum would be the best thing for Crimea and Donbass (and I believe the option to stay in Ukraine would not win) but obviously it would have to be done in peacetime and under the UN control.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 16:40
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

... Putin has made this a war, and I agree with sitting on the fence even less than I do with war.

I think it’s stupid to fear Putin’s nuclear threats, and not go to war with Russia because of them....


One of the thing that concerns and alarms me about this current conflict is that one person can have the say over the fate of so many.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 14:46
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:


Nick, the history of Ukraine, and of Crimea, and the relations of these areas with Russia are very complex.

In any case, Crimea is an area with a Russian majority, and occupied by Russia. Whether this is right or not can be debated, but the fact remains that nothing now but a war against Russia can change this state of affairs.
So I don't see how we can think that Crimea should go back to being an integral part of Ukraine.

I have no nationalistic sentiment, and no sympathy for Putin. I'm just saying that Crimea is already Russian. And it is not an occupation like the Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territories, because Crimea has a Russian majority. The Ukrainian wife of one of my best friends agrees that Crimea is Russian.
And I'm talking about a girl whose parents are living now in Kiev, under the Russian bombs.

The Donbass republics have been in revolt for many years and Ukraine in Minsk had signed pacts that guaranteed them semi-independence. You can believe what you want, in a pro-Nato or pro-Putin narrative, but in those regions there was a repression by the Ukraine, which also used the famous neo-Nazi battalions. This was reported by the Western press in recent years, not the Russian press.

So, even in that case, I don't see how you can think, now that Russia has invaded Ukraine starting from the defense of those republics, how these areas can return to Ukraine. Only a supporter of Ukrainian nationalist propaganda can think this: but then Ukraine would become the aggressor who wants to annex land that is no longer its own.
I believe that in principle there's only one authority to decide about where Crimea and the Donbass region belongs, and that's the people of these regions. From the outside nobody is entitled to say they "are really Russian" (or Ukrainian for that matter). We should not play Putin's game to derive something like a "true nature" of regions by shady historical or ethnical arguments ("Crimea is Russian"). And neither can this be determined by, say, referenda or declarations in the midst of war with people having a gun pointed at their head, as Putin seems to believe.

If I say that I can imagine that the Ukrainians accept to lose these regions, I say this grudgingly and for purely pragmatic reasons, to save lives and to avoid further escalation. Democracy is an ideal but where it doesn't exist, other considerations will decide what happens, which is acknowledging reality, nothing else. For sure I will not buy into any reasoning that states some kind of "natural right" of anyone there (neither Russia nor Ukraine nor Ukrainian wives of best friends) other than the people of these regions themselves, and of course if they are split on this, it's a tough problem they have to deal with themselves ultimately. The fact that people are displaced and population willfully changed by external forces doesn't help either.
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