When is a review TOO Subjective ?? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Wilcey

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Joined: August 11 2005
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: May 15 2006 at 07:36

I am kind of agreeing with Sleeper's comments. It is such a personal thing.
I don't mind people not liking the same music as me. (liking prog you get used to it!

)
The reviews that bother me, are the ones written by some guy who joins PA purely to post ONE review on an album that he has an extreme opinion of, and then leaves.....never to post again! That winds me up!
And rhetorical questions in reviews also.if you have a question about an album stick it in the forum where it might at least get answered! Some of these questions are really showing the reviewer in a bad light tho, and not the album they are trying to put down!

Edited by prog-chick - May 15 2006 at 07:37

sleeper

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Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
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Posted: May 15 2006 at 07:24

Listening to music is a very personal thing, no two people will hear he same music the same way. To discount a review that reflects something personal to that reviewer is highly inconsiderat IMO, your just dismissing his opinion with no real reason. For instance, the first example you gave for a review start "This was the first record I bought with my allowance" is a perfectly good start IMO, and as long as the review is well written, concise and shows the good and bad points and reasons why you find this then I dont see any problem.

Reviews I dont like are the ones that are two short to give such details (those that are only 5 or 6 lines for instance) or those that portrey fals information. Beyond that, whats the problem if a lot of people find Tool, or DT or Yes albums to be 5 stars, its what they thought of the music that they have heard. You just have to look through the reviews and find the ones you do like that tally with your own views on an album, from their you will find out witch reviewers share your taste in music and you can just go by their reviews when decideing on a new album.

mystic fred View Drop Down

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Posted: May 15 2006 at 01:54

the worst reviews seem to be of two types - the one that gives 5 stars and says "this is the best album i have ever heard" meaning the reviewer hasn't heard many albums at all, or the one that runs down a highly rated album, or any album for that matter, in a few lines saying "this s**t sucks!!". i'm guilty of that sort of thing myself and wish it could be removed! but it was a knee-jerk reaction which should have been avoided. initial euphoria over anything including a new album (one way or the other) should be avoided till the "honeymoon" period is over. there were far too many 5 star ratings for the new Tool album far too soon, a classic case of "the king's new clothes" if i ever heard one, the thing was still warm from the presses. perhaps PA should give a six month "cooling off" period for new albums, or at least let their authorised expert reviewers do them first?

i don't think it is fair to review music you dislike, or if you are a fan of a particular band their personal politics shouldn't come into it unless it directly affects the music, and don't worry the most ardent fans will be the first to condemn a less-than-up-to-standard album from their favourite group. i would never dream of rating a VDGG or gentle giant album because i just don't like them and my opinion would be worthless, but an opinion on Deep Purple would be valid as i'm a fan, i've seen them live and have heard all their albums to date, though it seems everyone else has also! i guess a good review is how you would describe an album to a fellow fan of the group who hadn't heard it, or a potential buyer's guide, "is it like this" or "is it good compared to that" would be most useful. going into long descriptions about the meanings of the lyrics isn't helpful either as they are always wide open to a person's individual interpretation.

Edited by mystic fred - May 15 2006 at 02:01

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Dirk

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Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Netherlands
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Points: 1043

Posted: May 14 2006 at 14:52

I tend to discount almost every 5 star review unless it's by a reviewer i know really well or a band i know pretty well. Problem with 5 star reviews is that you only hear what's good about an album but not the weaker points.

I don't know too many albums that i find to be totally or even close to perfect. 5 star ratings i would give to 5-10 albums or so (which i have heard more than 50 times) and most of these 5 star ratings would be rounded up from 4.5.

A good example is Luxade from La Maschera di cera, a good album with some wonderful moments but also some weaker points. I only learn about the good points of the band in the reviews up till now.

Edited by Dirk - May 14 2006 at 14:56

Easy Livin View Drop Down

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Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
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Posted: May 14 2006 at 14:39

I reckon statements like that, as long as they are part of a considered review, are what differentiates our site from others.

It is the personal aspect of our reviews which characterises them, and makes it different from the emotionless professional recitals which can be read anywhere else.

altaeria

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Joined: March 05 2004
Location: Philadelphia
Status: Offline
Points: 178

Posted: May 14 2006 at 14:17

I do understand that an album review is inherently Subjective by nature...

but I feel that there comes a point when a review can be "TOO subjective"

and, in turn, it actually loses its value as a helpful guide for others.

Anytime a review includes statements like:

"This was the first record I bought with my allowance"

...or...

"The singer couldn't hit the notes in concert"

...or...

"I can never get into this band -- so this album is no different"

...or...

"Joe Blow doesn't sound exactly the same way as original member Bob Slob"

...or...

"Everything So-and-so does is prog perfection"

... etc ...

I tend to discount the opinion of the reviewer because s/he isn't really evaluating the album for the material presented on it. Instead--the album is put in some irrelevant personal context.

Is CLOSE TO THE EDGE really worthy of the "Top Prog Album of All Time" status to people who didn't first hear it in the 70's? To any prog listener under the age of 35, is it even the band's best album?

Is DRAMA really a bad album because Trevor Horn couldn't sing ROUNDABOUT live?

If you know you absolutely can't stand ROGER WATERS, what good is it for you to "review" his album? You've already decided that you're not gonna like like it. How will that help us?

Maybe if you were to put it in some constructive comparative perspective... but you probably won't... So why bother, really?

If CALLING ALL STATIONS was released by some unknown band, would it still get completely killed?

How about if MARILLION or SPOCK'S BEARD released it?

Do ALL those TOOL albums reeealllly deserve 5 stars? C'mon, now... FIVE stars ?!!

Ideally...

We would all only review albums wrapped in nondescript packaging

and we would not factor-in the music's possible nostalgic connection.

However, of course, I do realize that THAT is impossible.

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Wilcey Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2696	Posted: May 15 2006 at 07:36
	I am kind of agreeing with Sleeper's comments. It is such a personal thing. I don't mind people not liking the same music as me. (liking prog you get used to it! ) The reviews that bother me, are the ones written by some guy who joins PA purely to post ONE review on an album that he has an extreme opinion of, and then leaves.....never to post again! That winds me up! And rhetorical questions in reviews also.if you have a question about an album stick it in the forum where it might at least get answered! Some of these questions are really showing the reviewer in a bad light tho, and not the album they are trying to put down! Edited by prog-chick - May 15 2006 at 07:37

sleeper Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Prog Reviewer Joined: October 09 2005 Location: Entropia Status: Offline Points: 16449	Posted: May 15 2006 at 07:24
	Listening to music is a very personal thing, no two people will hear he same music the same way. To discount a review that reflects something personal to that reviewer is highly inconsiderat IMO, your just dismissing his opinion with no real reason. For instance, the first example you gave for a review start "This was the first record I bought with my allowance" is a perfectly good start IMO, and as long as the review is well written, concise and shows the good and bad points and reasons why you find this then I dont see any problem. Reviews I dont like are the ones that are two short to give such details (those that are only 5 or 6 lines for instance) or those that portrey fals information. Beyond that, whats the problem if a lot of people find Tool, or DT or Yes albums to be 5 stars, its what they thought of the music that they have heard. You just have to look through the reviews and find the ones you do like that tally with your own views on an album, from their you will find out witch reviewers share your taste in music and you can just go by their reviews when decideing on a new album.

mystic fred Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 13 2006 Location: Londinium Status: Offline Points: 4252	Posted: May 15 2006 at 01:54
	the worst reviews seem to be of two types - the one that gives 5 stars and says "this is the best album i have ever heard" meaning the reviewer hasn't heard many albums at all, or the one that runs down a highly rated album, or any album for that matter, in a few lines saying "this s**t sucks!!". i'm guilty of that sort of thing myself and wish it could be removed! but it was a knee-jerk reaction which should have been avoided. initial euphoria over anything including a new album (one way or the other) should be avoided till the "honeymoon" period is over. there were far too many 5 star ratings for the new Tool album far too soon, a classic case of "the king's new clothes" if i ever heard one, the thing was still warm from the presses. perhaps PA should give a six month "cooling off" period for new albums, or at least let their authorised expert reviewers do them first? i don't think it is fair to review music you dislike, or if you are a fan of a particular band their personal politics shouldn't come into it unless it directly affects the music, and don't worry the most ardent fans will be the first to condemn a less-than-up-to-standard album from their favourite group. i would never dream of rating a VDGG or gentle giant album because i just don't like them and my opinion would be worthless, but an opinion on Deep Purple would be valid as i'm a fan, i've seen them live and have heard all their albums to date, though it seems everyone else has also! i guess a good review is how you would describe an album to a fellow fan of the group who hadn't heard it, or a potential buyer's guide, "is it like this" or "is it good compared to that" would be most useful. going into long descriptions about the meanings of the lyrics isn't helpful either as they are always wide open to a person's individual interpretation. Edited by mystic fred - May 15 2006 at 02:01
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Dirk Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 1043	Posted: May 14 2006 at 14:52
	I tend to discount almost every 5 star review unless it's by a reviewer i know really well or a band i know pretty well. Problem with 5 star reviews is that you only hear what's good about an album but not the weaker points. I don't know too many albums that i find to be totally or even close to perfect. 5 star ratings i would give to 5-10 albums or so (which i have heard more than 50 times) and most of these 5 star ratings would be rounded up from 4.5. A good example is Luxade from La Maschera di cera, a good album with some wonderful moments but also some weaker points. I only learn about the good points of the band in the reviews up till now. Edited by Dirk - May 14 2006 at 14:56

Easy Livin Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585	Posted: May 14 2006 at 14:39
	I reckon statements like that, as long as they are part of a considered review, are what differentiates our site from others. It is the personal aspect of our reviews which characterises them, and makes it different from the emotionless professional recitals which can be read anywhere else.

altaeria Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Reviewer page Forum Senior Member Joined: March 05 2004 Location: Philadelphia Status: Offline Points: 178	Posted: May 14 2006 at 14:17
	. I do understand that an album review is inherently Subjective by nature... but I feel that there comes a point when a review can be "TOO subjective" and, in turn, it actually loses its value as a helpful guide for others. Anytime a review includes statements like: "This was the first record I bought with my allowance" ...or... "The singer couldn't hit the notes in concert" ...or... "I can never get into this band -- so this album is no different" ...or... "Joe Blow doesn't sound exactly the same way as original member Bob Slob" ...or... "Everything So-and-so does is prog perfection" ... etc ... I tend to discount the opinion of the reviewer because s/he isn't really evaluating the album for the material presented on it. Instead--the album is put in some irrelevant personal context. Is CLOSE TO THE EDGE really worthy of the "Top Prog Album of All Time" status to people who didn't first hear it in the 70's? To any prog listener under the age of 35, is it even the band's best album? Is DRAMA really a bad album because Trevor Horn couldn't sing ROUNDABOUT live? If you know you absolutely can't stand ROGER WATERS, what good is it for you to "review" his album? You've already decided that you're not gonna like like it. How will that help us? Maybe if you were to put it in some constructive comparative perspective... but you probably won't... So why bother, really? If CALLING ALL STATIONS was released by some unknown band, would it still get completely killed? How about if MARILLION or SPOCK'S BEARD released it? Do ALL those TOOL albums reeealllly deserve 5 stars? C'mon, now... FIVE stars ?!! Ideally... We would all only review albums wrapped in nondescript packaging and we would not factor-in the music's possible nostalgic connection. However, of course, I do realize that THAT is impossible.