RICK WAKEMAN vs. KEITH EMERSON

I just listened to Wakeman's "Six Wives" album today and I have to say that it beats the living sh*t out of anything Emerson has ever done! Great album. I suggest that if you don't have it, get it. And that settles the fight between these two once and for all!

ooops.  I combined two topics in one post.  sorry.

dropForge wrote: On that note, Dennis, just what are Keith, Carl and Greg doing apart and not together? That's right, they're each very busy being their own nostalgia act. Aside from his contributions to the Godzilla: Final Wars soundtrack (which I suspect were already lying around in partially completed form), Keith hasn't done much new music for a long time; Emerson Plays Emerson 's title speaks for itself, and the Nighthawks and Iron Man reissues were all previously recorded music from 10-20+ years ago. Keith's done a few solo albums and soundtracks, and he did indeed create that awe-inspiring music for us circa '71-'73 (sorry, I don't really care for The Nice, ELP's much better), but it seems that after he shot his creative wad with ELP in the mid-70s, he's only had occasional flashes of brilliance. I really like 3/4 of ELPowell (the bonus tracks and half-assed version of "Mars" have got to go); To The Power Of Three album is a turd with keyboard sounds worse than Rick's cheesiest; Black Moon has its moments but I haven't listened to it for many years; and I no longer own In The Hot Seat, which houses ONE whole listenable track on it. Rick gets put down at Keith's expense quite often. Why assume that Rick's contributions to progressive music in the early 1970's pale in comparison to Keith's with ELP? Perhaps they do, but it really depends on what you like. Rick recorded two albums with the Strawbs (not the Rick Wakeman Group), then he joined Yes to record Fragile, Close To The Edge, and Tales From Topographic Oceans before leaving Yes the first time. When you're one player in a group full of virtuosic rock musicians, everybody has to get their licks in, right? Those albums aren't chopped liver; the last one is an ambitious, unfairly regarded four-sided album. Dump on it if you will, but ELP wasn't spotless, not with that silly take on PAAE. Yes is an ensemble group; ELP was basically Keith Emerson and Friends, with the singer-bassist guy getting to whip out his guitar every now and then. Keith got to do whatever he wanted. Keith even forced O'List out of The Nice. It speaks volumes that Rick, at his level of talent, is able to coexist with a guitarist (he's even always had a guitarist in his own band) while still pulling off everything you'd expect from him. Between Keith and Rick, it's obvious that Rick was the more versatile musician, and Keith was the guy with the bigger ego (now Keith has to use a guitarist because he's not quite his old self). When Rick (with the fabulous Six Wives album already under his belt) staged his Journey and King Arthur productions, he was a guy in his mid-20s pulling off those spectacles, cheese-laden or not (hey, it WAS the '70s...again, look at ELP!). By the time he was 30 (1978), Rick was back in Yes, but he'd also recorded several soundtracks ("Ice Run" from White Rock is a killer Clavinet-oriented track, it's tops; I thought he couldn't do better than Keith?), not to mention what is probably the crown jewel in his solo catalog, Criminal Record. Rick can't play a synth as well as Keith? Bullsh*t. On that album, Rick shows us he could do just about anything. After BSS, Keith seriously started running out of gas, creatively speaking. Today, it's more obvious than ever, while Rick's put out some great albums (along with his share of turds, naturally), like 1984, Wakeman With Wakeman, and the recent retro/modern hybrid, Out There. What's next in Wakemanville? Apparently he's gearing up for a purely retro-styled album on which he'll employ Hammond C3 and L100, Mellotron (a real one, not an emulation), his RMI Roxichord, and his PolyMoog and MiniMoog (along with other gear). I, for one, can't wait. Rick's showed no signs of slowing down throughout his entire career, and he's toured like a foot soldier, too. What's Keith got on his plate for the near future? Regurgitating ELP classics recorded circa '71-'73, probably.

one of the best posts I've ever read - Wakeman is by far the more complete musician, Emerson burned our much too quickly as you pointed out.  We forget to mention Wakeman is one of the few (if only) musicians to have a *real* prog solo career that was succesuful.  Wakeman was ultra-sucessful on his own, as well as with Yes.  Keith just has ELP 1970-1974, and the Nice 1967-1970.

Don't think I am putting down Keith Emerson at all I mean we are comparing 2 of the geniuses of the genre.

Edited by NetsNJFan

Points well taken dropForge. You are right, ELP had some losers too. I mean who could take "Love Beach" seriously although there were a couple of good tracks? Lets face it. Both musicians are well beyond their prime and their heydays are long gone. Maybe we should all just respect the fact that both Keith and Rick were/are pioneering prog-rock keyboardists that have greatly influenced the entire prog-rock genre? Both these guys get too much recognition. And yes, both are cashing in on the past. Emerson's recent reunion with The Nice was embarrassing. How about the other great pioneers of prog keyboards like Hugh Banton, Tony Banks, Larry "Synergy" Fast (especially with Nektar), Vangelis, Kerry Minnear, Ian McDonald (for the Mellotron), or should it be Mike Pinder? There's probably a few more I'm forgetting at the moment. And yes, both Keith and Rick don't seem to have the chops as they used too. Both have become sloppy. But I don't see any new symphonic prog-band keyboardists that have not been influenced by these two. An excellent example is the keyboarist for the Norwegian prog bands White Willow and Wobbler, Lars Fredrik Froisle. Both of the aforementioned pioneers have influenced him greatly.     

Edited by Dennis

On that note, Dennis, just what are Keith, Carl and Greg doing apart and not together? That's right, they're each very busy being their own nostalgia act. Aside from his contributions to the Godzilla: Final Wars soundtrack (which I suspect were already lying around in partially completed form), Keith hasn't done much new music for a long time; Emerson Plays Emerson 's title speaks for itself, and the Nighthawks and Iron Man reissues were all previously recorded music from 10-20+ years ago. Keith's done a few solo albums and soundtracks, and he did indeed create that awe-inspiring music for us circa '71-'73 (sorry, I don't really care for The Nice, ELP's much better), but it seems that after he shot his creative wad with ELP in the mid-70s, he's only had occasional flashes of brilliance. I really like 3/4 of ELPowell (the bonus tracks and half-assed version of "Mars" have got to go); To The Power Of Three album is a turd with keyboard sounds worse than Rick's cheesiest; Black Moon has its moments but I haven't listened to it for many years; and I no longer own In The Hot Seat, which houses ONE whole listenable track on it.

Rick gets put down at Keith's expense quite often. Why assume that Rick's contributions to progressive music in the early 1970's pale in comparison to Keith's with ELP? Perhaps they do, but it really depends on what you like. Rick recorded two albums with the Strawbs (not the Rick Wakeman Group), then he joined Yes to record Fragile, Close To The Edge, and Tales From Topographic Oceans before leaving Yes the first time. When you're one player in a group full of virtuosic rock musicians, everybody has to get their licks in, right? Those albums aren't chopped liver; the last one is an ambitious, unfairly regarded four-sided album. Dump on it if you will, but ELP wasn't spotless, not with that silly take on PAAE. Yes is an ensemble group; ELP was basically Keith Emerson and Friends, with the singer-bassist guy getting to whip out his guitar every now and then. Keith got to do whatever he wanted. Keith even forced O'List out of The Nice. It speaks volumes that Rick, at his level of talent, is able to coexist with a guitarist (he's even always had a guitarist in his own band) while still pulling off everything you'd expect from him. Between Keith and Rick, it's obvious that Rick was the more versatile musician, and Keith was the guy with the bigger ego (now Keith has to use a guitarist because he's not quite his old self). When Rick (with the fabulous Six Wives album already under his belt) staged his Journey and King Arthur productions, he was a guy in his mid-20s pulling off those spectacles, cheese-laden or not (hey, it WAS the '70s...again, look at ELP!). By the time he was 30 (1978), Rick was back in Yes, but he'd also recorded several soundtracks ("Ice Run" from White Rock is a killer Clavinet-oriented track, it's tops; I thought he couldn't do better than Keith?), not to mention what is probably the crown jewel in his solo catalog, Criminal Record. Rick can't play a synth as well as Keith? Bullsh*t. On that album, Rick shows us he could do just about anything. After BSS, Keith seriously started running out of gas, creatively speaking. Today, it's more obvious than ever, while Rick's put out some great albums (along with his share of turds, naturally), like 1984, Wakeman With Wakeman, and the recent retro/modern hybrid, Out There. What's next in Wakemanville? Apparently he's gearing up for a purely retro-styled album on which he'll employ Hammond C3 and L100, Mellotron (a real one, not an emulation), his RMI Roxichord, and his PolyMoog and MiniMoog (along with other gear). I, for one, can't wait. Rick's showed no signs of slowing down throughout his entire career, and he's toured like a foot soldier, too. What's Keith got on his plate for the near future? Regurgitating ELP classics recorded circa '71-'73, probably.

Both Keith and Rick have had their moments of glory in prog-rock history. And both are excellent professionaly trained musicians. But I will never forget first hearing ELP's "Lucky Man" in 1970. The moog "explosion" at the end of the song was mind-blowing. No one had ever used a synthesiser in rock music like that before. It was a wake-up (No Wakeman pun intended!) calling to a new dawn in music. It was like the stereo speakers were going to blow up, or like the Mother-ship hovering over the house in "Close Encounters of the Third Kind." A true pionnering effort in the history of synthesisers. For this, and his vast body of work, I must give the nod to Emerson. Don't take me wrong, Wakeman has produced many fine albums, and has had great moments with Yes, but not nearly as much as Emerson, and also not as versitile in style as Emerson. Plus the last time I saw Yes in concert (2002), Wakeman's performance was somewhat lackluster and uninspired. Especially boring and amazing to me is that he stills plays the solo parts from his "Six Wives" album in the exact presentation, note for note, of it as he did with "Yessongs" which now boys and girls, is over 30 years old. NOT progressive, but regressive. Sorry Rick!    

Edited by Dennis

Pugs wrote: Fragile wrote: Trouserpress wrote: Both are rubbish in comparison to Kerry Minnear. Bobby Crush is better than all three Hmm but what about Les Dawson?

Les Dawson was actually a very good pianist by all acoounts.Talking of celebs the diminutive comedian/actor Dudley Moore was also regarded as a fine player (RIP both of them)

The Prog Man wrote: The Battle of the Keyboardists! Wakemans seriousness or Emersons wild antics.

Wakeman, as I recall was serious with a paint roller. For me Keith Emerson is the man but I refer to his pre-surgery days (Ulnar surgery not BSS). Listening to both on Moogfest I have to admit RW is now the better of the two.

Thinking about it I reckon the whole "Who was best"
debate is slightly redundant.

We should just be glad there were so many great
keys players around. In the UK in the 1970's they
were everywhere - Emerson, Wakeman, Banks,
Argent, Greenslade, Hensley, Minnear, Lord etc.
Later on in the decade came Eddie Jobson, Don
Airey and Colin Towns.

They all had plenty to offer in their different ways!

Keith