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ELP Underrated?

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    Posted: October 07 2024 at 17:33
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I think Tim Bowness is right when he says Love Beach would have been a better album if the side-long epic was on side 1 and they chose a better album cover. Tim's very insightful in that YT video.

As much as I pay attention to the coverart and believe that it uses to reflect the music, the one of Love Beach never has given me the desire or courage to listen to this album. And then, there're the album title and the ratings.


Edited by David_D - October 08 2024 at 05:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2024 at 11:56
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Paraphrasing he said 'they were the band that did the 9 minute Moog solos' but actually Trilogy is a tight album and well put together in a sensible way. Later ELP perhaps had more issues but in 72 they were still on the rails.IMO.


That's because he probably hasn't listened to Trilogy in thirty or forty years!

I'm reminded of the joke about the "twenty-minute Mellotron flute solo" in Denis Leary's sitcom Sex&Drugs&Rock&Roll.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2024 at 09:12
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

I think Tim Bowness is right when he says Love Beach would have been a better album if the side-long epic was on side 1 and they chose a better album cover. Tim's very insightful in that YT video.

It would have possibly given the album a better flow, but still the song-writing is rather poor and the lyrics are mostly cringy. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 07 2024 at 09:09
I think Tim Bowness is right when he says Love Beach would have been a better album if the side-long epic was on side 1 and they chose a better album cover. Tim's very insightful in that YT video.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2024 at 23:37
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^yep in 1970-1971 especially and after that Yes and even arguably Focus took it forward. Nowadays the revisionism that as happened with prog history tends to put them down as almost a footnote. Steve Wilson and Tim Bowness got a lot of blow back for this recent video in case you don't know.
...

Hi,

At least, SW stated that this was UK version and edition, which I can accept and relate. Sadly, from my point of view, it diminishes the ability and quality of the rest of the music in Europe, but I have a feeling that SW and TB were more worried about touching areas that would be much more extensive and not able to discuss them ... the Italian scene, the French scene, and specially the German scene that was much more alive with film, theater and the performance arts. The British scene was much more independent of all the arts, and kinda stood on its own some, it could be said, although the idea of thinking of 2 of Genesis' albums within the fairy tale thing, is bizarre to me, considering the incredible history of folk music in Great Britain. On top of it you had some bands playing material some 400/500 years old in a much more modern format ... 

The part I like the most is that SW mentioned some great albums that most of us here don't give a cahoot about, and that was neat ... having grown up with that GB scene and Space Pirate Radio (Guy was almost exclusive on every thing in GB music and probably the most knowledgeable person on it I have ever met!!!) I got to hear a lot of it, and some of those things were very neat and deserve a lot of mentions, but won't get it, because they never really hit the "numbers" that makes fans think that this specific album is the great big cheese now ... something that is really sad in the arts ... the more you listen to and hear, and see (in painting) the less you worry about a favorite and a number 1 ... because there are so many different things and they are all far out, and many of them speak of a time and place, something that a lot of music listed DOES NOT ... though to be fair, they might not have lived within a time of great artistic movements, like the 1960's ... to have a stronger value within their music. 

It was special and far out to hear about FAMILY and MAN ... for example, that deserve some appreciation, and TB noted that Roger Chapman was "up there" ... which is something I agree with. MAN, for me, is lovely and their music is in my heart from the first album ... all the way to Deke Leonard's book ... "Man On The Road To Nowhere" ... a very sad book, but incredible in its guts and its courage.

I think the bad rap might have come from the fact that they did not exactly kiss up to ELP and probably thought too much about YES, and some on GG and Genesis and JT. SW not enjoying ELP is not a surprise, since SW is NOT about music within a classic sense ... he is a Pop music singer and writer ... there is nothing classical or super special about what he does ... but both him (by himself) and PT did come up with some rather nice things to listen to, but all of them STRICTLY within a rock context. And, I like to think that SW is as funny as a dead cow picture on an album (a la Hipgnosis, or course!).

I don't think that SW has enough in the studies of music history to appreciate some of Keith's material as classical done by orchestras, and maybe he is not happy because PT and SW will likely not have the chance to play with an orchestra ... his music is not designed for that. I, also, don't think that trashing the fun stuff in ELP is fair ... a lot of folks liked it, and probably was a nice touch inside an hour of what could be considered heavy music, and intense ... you don't get up and scream rock'n'roll during the toccata in Montreal ... plain and simple, and seeing it within the context of a rock musician that doesn't care for classical music and how the original "progressive" folks all came from classical music ... which speaks more about the levels of appreciation by the universities around the world and their music designs and definitions than ... anything ... and besides, they like the dead composers because they can't argue otherwise!

The Daily Doug has done both ELP and SW/PT and there is no doubt what DD thinks about Keith Emerson's composition skills ... his discussions on SW/PT don't even come lose to that classical scrutiny, so SW not liking it and saying that the Piano Concerto is not any good, is ... in my book ... more in bad taste than it is about anything else ... he's sounding like an average internet fan discussing his favorites, not the music itself ... TB, at least mentioned the music details quite often!

Actually I did like his comments about Genesis (too over copied, not their fault, but suggesting it may diminish their legacy was very interesting and a different take on things) but with ELP it was trying to make a point that wasn't necessary. Paraphrasing he said 'they were the band that did the 9 minute Moog solos' but actually Trilogy is a tight album and well put together in a sensible way. Later ELP perhaps had more issues but in 72 they were still on the rails.IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2024 at 11:50

About Tarkus, I really love it and am impressed by it the whole way through, as "Jeremy Bender" and "Are You Ready Eddy?" work very well to me as parts of the entire album.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2024 at 10:29
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^yep in 1970-1971 especially and after that Yes and even arguably Focus took it forward. Nowadays the revisionism that as happened with prog history tends to put them down as almost a footnote. Steve Wilson and Tim Bowness got a lot of blow back for this recent video in case you don't know.
...

Hi,

At least, SW stated that this was UK version and edition, which I can accept and relate. Sadly, from my point of view, it diminishes the ability and quality of the rest of the music in Europe, but I have a feeling that SW and TB were more worried about touching areas that would be much more extensive and not able to discuss them ... the Italian scene, the French scene, and specially the German scene that was much more alive with film, theater and the performance arts. The British scene was much more independent of all the arts, and kinda stood on its own some, it could be said, although the idea of thinking of 2 of Genesis' albums within the fairy tale thing, is bizarre to me, considering the incredible history of folk music in Great Britain. On top of it you had some bands playing material some 400/500 years old in a much more modern format ... 

The part I like the most is that SW mentioned some great albums that most of us here don't give a cahoot about, and that was neat ... having grown up with that GB scene and Space Pirate Radio (Guy was almost exclusive on every thing in GB music and probably the most knowledgeable person on it I have ever met!!!) I got to hear a lot of it, and some of those things were very neat and deserve a lot of mentions, but won't get it, because they never really hit the "numbers" that makes fans think that this specific album is the great big cheese now ... something that is really sad in the arts ... the more you listen to and hear, and see (in painting) the less you worry about a favorite and a number 1 ... because there are so many different things and they are all far out, and many of them speak of a time and place, something that a lot of music listed DOES NOT ... though to be fair, they might not have lived within a time of great artistic movements, like the 1960's ... to have a stronger value within their music. 

It was special and far out to hear about FAMILY and MAN ... for example, that deserve some appreciation, and TB noted that Roger Chapman was "up there" ... which is something I agree with. MAN, for me, is lovely and their music is in my heart from the first album ... all the way to Deke Leonard's book ... "Man On The Road To Nowhere" ... a very sad book, but incredible in its guts and its courage.

I think the bad rap might have come from the fact that they did not exactly kiss up to ELP and probably thought too much about YES, and some on GG and Genesis and JT. SW not enjoying ELP is not a surprise, since SW is NOT about music within a classic sense ... he is a Pop music singer and writer ... there is nothing classical or super special about what he does ... but both him (by himself) and PT did come up with some rather nice things to listen to, but all of them STRICTLY within a rock context. And, I like to think that SW is as funny as a dead cow picture on an album (a la Hipgnosis, or course!).

I don't think that SW has enough in the studies of music history to appreciate some of Keith's material as classical done by orchestras, and maybe he is not happy because PT and SW will likely not have the chance to play with an orchestra ... his music is not designed for that. I, also, don't think that trashing the fun stuff in ELP is fair ... a lot of folks liked it, and probably was a nice touch inside an hour of what could be considered heavy music, and intense ... you don't get up and scream rock'n'roll during the toccata in Montreal ... plain and simple, and seeing it within the context of a rock musician that doesn't care for classical music and how the original "progressive" folks all came from classical music ... which speaks more about the levels of appreciation by the universities around the world and their music designs and definitions than ... anything ... and besides, they like the dead composers because they can't argue otherwise!

The Daily Doug has done both ELP and SW/PT and there is no doubt what DD thinks about Keith Emerson's composition skills ... his discussions on SW/PT don't even come lose to that classical scrutiny, so SW not liking it and saying that the Piano Concerto is not any good, is ... in my book ... more in bad taste than it is about anything else ... he's sounding like an average internet fan discussing his favorites, not the music itself ... TB, at least mentioned the music details quite often!


Edited by moshkito - October 06 2024 at 14:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 06 2024 at 02:01
^yep in 1970-1971 especially and after that Yes and even arguably Focus took it forward. Nowadays the revisionism that as happened with prog history tends to put them down as almost a footnote. Steve Wilson and Tim Bowness got a lot of blow back for this recent video in case you don't know.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 05 2024 at 07:05

As I see it and if looking at it as an entirety of Progressiveness, artistic creativity, successfulness and being influential, in the '70s, 
ELP was the no 1 of all Prog pioneers, or share it with Yes.


Edited by David_D - October 05 2024 at 15:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2024 at 15:36
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

It mainly falls down on details such as the cover that you mention and the tinny weak production.


And, for the trifecta, the title itself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2024 at 15:23
Originally posted by Starshiper Starshiper wrote:

Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

Underrated song

"For You"


Fantastic tune. The Love Beach album is underrated. According to me. I think the main reason LB is so hated is the awful sleeve design, which is uncannily similar to a disco style from the late 1970s. The story about that album probably would be different if an artist like Roger Dean, Patrick Woodroffe, or Matti Klarwein had illustrated the cover for "Love Beach."



If you break down the structure of Love Beach then only the first 3 tracks are not typical ELP and aimed at radio. After that it's mostly a traditional ELP album (The fun track followed by the ballad followed by a classical thing and then epic suite). It mainly falls down on details such as the cover that you mention and the tinny weak production. It was salvagable but they were tired and wanted to end the band anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Starshiper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2024 at 01:01
Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

Underrated song

"For You"


Fantastic tune. The Love Beach album is underrated. According to me. I think the main reason LB is so hated is the awful sleeve design, which is uncannily similar to a disco style from the late 1970s. The story about that album probably would be different if an artist like Roger Dean, Patrick Woodroffe, or Matti Klarwein had illustrated the cover for "Love Beach."


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Floydoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2024 at 00:21
Partly in ELP you had the classic conflict/tension between a composer (Emerson) and a songwriter (Lake). Argent had the same unease between Rod Argent himself (the composer) and Russ Ballard (the songwriter). Both bands put out some terrific albums tho.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2024 at 22:15
^  I can remember the prog show on BBC (presented by Alan Freeman) had the occasional custom quad mixes of albums by various artists (not just ELP). It was very odd. ELP were pioneering as always but to the outside world they were all about ego. Never quite sure what to make of Greg Lake. He came across as a bit 'warmer' than the other 2 but then he could be quite quick in his put downs and demanded the highest standards. I reckon that Emerson was very appreciative of his management skills and wanted someone to take on that burden, although financially that was someone else, spiritually Lake was the band leader. Emerson just wanted to do his thing most of the time. Palmer was the kid in the divorce but once he had Asia he could stand on his own feet a bit better. (his own attempt at putting a band together 'PM' was a near total disaster). With Asia he was an 'equal' perhaps more than in ELP where 'Mum and Dad' tended to rule!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jacob Schoolcraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2024 at 20:16
When the band name ...Emerson Lake & Palmer began circulating in the early 70s it attracted attention not unlike Crosby, Stills & Nash or whatever bands carried it's reputation on the stake of three last names. So for people who didn't know anything about the band such as Lake being in K.C....Emerson from The Nice...and Palmer from Atomic Rooster ...the three last name routine was the selling point.

Regarding those who followed The Nice...they were waiting for a new band. They were waiting for Emerson to make a move. The first ELP album and Tarkus were magical ..and eventually Trilogy and Brain Salad Surgery took the music further.

In the summer of 74' I saw the Welcome Back tour which presented A Quad sound system and in each corner of the stadium were giant speaker cabinets towering up to the ceiling. And so the sound bounced around rotating rapidly between each of the 4 cabinets in the hall. This really brought more people to their shows.

Many years later when I met Greg Lake he was very bitter about ELP and came across condescending or defeating and persistent in saying that Emerson and Palmer were all about ego. He was irritated and negative about the band's history. It was like he was getting a divorce 😃 😀
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2024 at 20:13
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

^Yeah, I remember Guy's show and didn't get back around to editing, but you covered it in much more detail than I could have.

Hi,

Having been his roomate all the way to the fall of 1979 (might have been 1978!!), when I went to UCSB, was what helped all that stuff ... I merely specify what I saw and remembered and we shared. We had a couple of apartments before the actual opening of the show in January 1974, but I had a hard time making rent a couple of times, which made things tough. Finally we ended up on "Altair 4" for a while, and his show took off.

Lots of fun time.

Lots of crazy times.

What is strange is telling these stories and at least one person, thinks I am making it all up, and that I'm just a story teller!

Tongue Wink LOL Confused


Edited by moshkito - September 29 2024 at 20:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2024 at 18:19
^Yeah, I remember Guy's show and didn't get back around to editing, but you covered it in much more detail than I could have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 28 2024 at 06:33
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

...
I could be wrong, but I don't think Gentle Giant, Camel and especially Van der Graaf Generator were played on FM in the States past the '70s (or ever, in VdGG's case). 
...

Hi,

Gentle Giant, Camel and VdGG were played ... HEAVILY ... on Guy Guden's show and was even listed in the station's material when other folks played it. This would be, from January 1974 on, when SPR went on full blast. GG also was huge in NY and Gary Green has talked about it ... I wish I had more information about many of these, but it is all a bit too sketchy and not exactly listed and marked ... I have posted, for example, a listing of a lot of the things Guy played in all of 1974 from the shows that survived ... 9 of them ... and I lost about 4 of these around 1999, when I could not get the shows done on mp3, the tapes were not doing well. (They were almost all 120 TDK's or Maxell's)(Note: shows are not "complete' and averaged 3 to 4 hours). There is a listing of the stuff from 1974 on the SPR thread on PA and I would not compare that listing to anyone's TODAY ... Guy's show did not compromise a whole lot, and though in the early days it has McCartney and a few things here and there, by the end of the year, it was 100% imports ... from his collection and mine, and likely nothing from the station itself.

I think that all 3 bands were listed, and played in LA in that one independent station (can't remember ... KNAC?) ... that made it a point to play the stuff way before the other 2 biggies. I think Camel's album "Mirage" is the one that broke them in LA ... Gentle Giant was played a lot, and I heard it earlier on the PBS station that had a guy in there that was nuts and played all kinds of things there ... I first heard AD2, and many other things there. I think he called himself "Captain Midnight" and I remember him being a true eccentric since he really mixed things up to what I sometimes think is ridiculous, but somehow, it made sense and was fun to hear, though from Santa Barbara, you could only hear the station for a few hours during the night.

Not all stuff listed here was ... nighttime radio ... though we could say that about Guy's shows ... since they all started at midnight, but he was established enough that a few years later he was doing the evening shows sometimes and he would always play some of that stuff ... and then some ... and on Christmas Day 1976 Guy blew out the airwaves during the evening. It got to the point that at least one other goon in the station was also playing all the stuff since none of them wanted Guy to have the credit for putting all of that music on!

AND ... 50 years later, Guy is still on, and playing a wide open selection of things that I'm not sure folks that think "progressive" is all music, can really enjoy and appreciate. He has a heck of a lot of artists that send him materials, and has had that since at least 1980's when he made a point of meeting a lot of these folks and give them a nice ear ... not to mention that Guy's interviews were out of this world far out! I wish that the Robin Williamson interview could be shared ... the knowledge and history and music is ... really superb. There would be other interviews that I am not aware of, but Guy, at very least, usually knew the artist really well, and could easily converse with them. It was not a sort of star thing ... it was a person to person, and it was special. Guy has mentioned before (on his blog) that he had Frank Zappa, Bill Bruford, Brian Ferry, Edgar Froese, and many others ... Frank did not do a promo but you can tell by the other promos, that they visited and had some fun with Guy.

I don't want to say that none of the "progressive" shows out there now are not good, but the formulaic side of it, is not a good thing for showing the music at its best ... and I miss the ideas that first brought "progressive" to our minds and imaginations, and it was not a format, or just a solo ... it was serious music, although we would think that Frank Zappa satirized a lot of the public norms and forms musically. Some of the shows, are noticeably inspired by a band or two ... as an example, one show I call "the son of KC", because of the styles played ... and while I happen to love KC, hearing it all the way to the bathroom and shower and my dreams ... c'mon ... wake up (as XTC would say!). These shows need to be more free form and let go of the idea that the "classics" have to be played ... not as much as they are ... I don't need to be reminded of Yes, Genesis, Rush and anyone else ... I already have them in my heart!

NOTE: Guy never missed a new album by TD, KS, GG, Camel, Roxy Music, VdGG, PH and many other folks ... and played them ALL ... in their entirety, something that most of the progressive shows listed are not capable of doing ... you have to be trusted and kinda known, to do this ... and folks don't leave, like today's audience seems to do if it doesn't sound like something they like. This is important, and it was also a factor in the early days of Guy's shows ... things were played!!! And then some!!! No one does that anymore ... no guts!


Edited by moshkito - September 28 2024 at 07:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2024 at 21:12
Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

I remember the legendary Radio One DJ John Peel once described ELP 'a waste of talent and electricity'.

On a side note he also described the music of Focus as 'rat's pi$$'.

He also said he cried when he saw their unofficial debut at Plymouth Guild Hall (basically a rehearsal for The Isle Of Wight). Later on in his career he said ELP were not the worst and gave that 'accolade' to Yes. His fellow BBC One DJ Alan Freeman was an ELP fan and Peel said that he was the man who discovered ELP when they were millionaires and turned them into multi millionaires. Peel was not a big fan of the 'mainstream' prog bands although he did promote 'lessor' artists such as Gentle Giant, VDGG and Captain Beefheart on his radio show. He also was one of the prime movers behind punk rock and gave the British Punk a certain legitimacy. Personally I used to listen to Peel's late night radio show a lot when I was about 15. He played a lot of good new stuff. I kinda of liked him!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 27 2024 at 15:31
Originally posted by Floydoid Floydoid wrote:

I remember the legendary Radio One DJ John Peel once described ELP 'a waste of talent and electricity'.

On a side note he also described the music of Focus as 'rat's pi$$'.

He and Robert Christgau should have started a band then we could insult their music and see how they like it.
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