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micky ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46843 |
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granted I haven't reviewed that many albums yet.... Ivan keeps me
pretty damn busy with the symphonic team but I give two ratings in my
reviews. My opinion of the albums place in the grand scheme of
things prog (the rating submitted to the site) and my personal view of
it. While I loved ELO 2 and consider it essential.... I'm not too
blind to see that many people (err.. all hahahha) would not. I
reviewed the Magma live album from Bruxelles 1971 and LOVED it... gave
it 4 or 5 stars personally.. but is it anywhere near an essential
album... no way. Gave it 3 stars to the site.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21847 |
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I guess that as reviewers get more experienced (and listens to more different styles and bands) their ability grows to recognize which of their favorite albums are objectively great and which ones are really not that great but nevertheless special to the reviewer because of other, really personal factors.
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Antennas ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 01 2006 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 331 |
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Hi all,
It's still a bit of a question to me how to give ratings - I always try to be objective, and sometimes that means I just give 3 stars to something I personally like very very much (and thus consider it a 5 stars album myself) as I realize that I should take into account that a 'personal love' isn't always a 'masterpiece' for everyone else.
I think everyone has a different approach to this, but we should surely try and distinguish between fanboyism (or fangirlism
![]() Baahhh... I fear this comment is uncomprehensible...
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![]() Jesus never managed to figure out the theremin either |
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21847 |
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^ thanks! You should try it - create an account and rate an album, using all the inputs that are provided. I'd be interested in your feedback! I'd be particularly interested in feedback about the attributes that you can rate for each album - I'm not entirely happy with them yet.
BTW: Of course the strategy that I described above includes the risk that you won't like an album rated highly by a "trusted reviewer" ... but then again this can be a chance for you to expand your musical horizon. Maybe you'll grow to like it. |
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Certif1ed ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
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Ratings can be helpful, but that is not how I see the purpose of this site - I think it's more intelligent than X is fab and Y is crap, which is a debate that has raged since the dawn of mindless fanboyism.
There are plenty of sites that do ratings - and I don't think that ProgArchives is just another one - at least, it wasn't when I joined up. You can always go and look at a ratings-oriented site if a review here has made you curious. Of course, just because you agree with a reviewer about one album, it doesn't mean you'll agree with them about others. I'd be willing to bet that there are plenty of people who have read a couple of my reviews and said to themselves - "Yeah - that's almost what I think!", and then read others and said "What crap - it's nothing like that!". I know this to be true because I've had "fanboy" PMs about some of my reviews, and death threat PMs about others. I find it more useful to search out reasoned reviews among the dross for albums that are highly rated, and simply read well-written reviews using the RSS feed - which means I see every review as it comes onto the site and can filter that way. This site suits my tastes for reviews - if it ever turned into a RateYourMusic clone, I'd find somewhere else to lurk. This is a Progressive site. ![]() -------------------------------- Your site looks good, BTW ![]() |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21847 |
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You don't need any reasoning at all - pure ratings can also be a helpful guide when buying albums. The trick is to pick your favorite reviewers and then to follow their ratings:
- pick those reviewers that agree with you on certain landmark albums - ideally those which are controversial. So if you find a reviewer who agrees with you on CttE, Trout Mask Replica, Hot Rats, Terria, Scenes From A Memory, The Odyssey (SyX), ... then it is highly likely that you won't go completely wrong if you buy an album which is highly rated by that reviewer + is in a genre that you generally like. That's also my approach at www.ratingfreak.com - I'll add a "trusted reviewers" feature in the next few weeks. Then you can view top album lists by genre (rock/metal/jazz - not more specific) that show you albums which you haven't rated yet and which are highly rated by those reviewers. |
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Certif1ed ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
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Indeed - but you asked if they could really be separated, and that was the question I answered - in keeping with the topic "When is a review TOO subjective". The question is not whether the review proves that the album is NOT worth five stars, but whether the review goes any way to proving that it IS. A review like that only proves that the reviewer likes it - and is not very interesting, because it says nothing about the music, and does not even try to justify why the album is a masterpiece. A waste of space, in other words, as most people wouldn't buy an album based on something like that, I would suggest. And, having heard some of these "masterpieces", it has become a case of once bitten, twice shy - even though I have returned in some cases, to see if I had missed something. The only thing I missed was following the logic I presented above - to avoid "fanboy" reviewed albums. I'm just too curious ![]() |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21847 |
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surely comments like these show that the reviewer really likes the album. But do they - together with a 5 star rating - prove that the album is not worth 5 stars? The whole discussion is futile anyway because - as you also said - the averages in the progarchvies database are a mix of various different rating strategies. When I look at the reviews I feel like most people give 5 stars more freely than suggested by the guidelines, and ignoring that and sparing the 5 stars for the top 10 albums of all time is IMO unnecessarily punishing the other albums. But then again the ratings are not that important anyway - everybody knows that they can be "tweaked". |
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Wilcey ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2696 |
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It is difficult tho, there are some albums that I REALLY don't like, and I think it's for valid reasons, but that can be hard to express, especially when that album has lots of 4 or 5 star reviews.
I can try to be fair, and i would never just slg off an album, but if your opinion, based on valid reasons is different to most other peoples then what DO you write??? If I said that I thought the links and themes were weak, I thought that the production values were poor etc etc, and the other reviewers said "Wow best album EVER" .............it makes me look a fool, or bitter about the success of that album. There are some truly apalling reviews here......... but with such a MASSIVE data base of material it's inevitable to get these poorly written hate/love reviews sneaking in. P-C |
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Certif1ed ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
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There are certain giveaways; "The guitar is really good, and the drums are fantastic. The singer has a great voice and the keyboards are cool. I really like track 2, and track 6 is the best ever!!! Track 8 has an awesome drum solo, dude, and, like is just awesome - you gotta buy this album!!!" Can you spot the subtle hints that would make me suspect that a review like that is pure fanboyism? Does it tell you about the music or the reviewer? |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Tristan Mulders ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 28 2004 Status: Offline Points: 1723 |
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I lately use a new system to create a rating for an album when reviewing one.
I first copy the tracklist and take a look at each and every single song and give each song a Xstar rating according to the normal guidelines. Than I take a look at the average score and that's what I award the album. That way I sometimes give one of my favourite albums a mere 3 star rating, simply because I look at its progrelated issues with the guidelines and not at my personal feelings about it. These feelings I still can express in the review itself |
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Interested in my reviews?
You can find them HERE "...He will search until He's found a Way to take the Days..." |
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MikeEnRegalia ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21847 |
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Can you really separate them - or does a 5 star rating automatically make you suspect "fanboyism"?
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Certif1ed ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
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I know I'm not alone here, but I prefer to remove my personal tastes as far as possible, and review in terms of whether or not an album really is a masterpiece of Prog.
Of course this is subjective, and can only be qualified with reasoning based on more subjectivity - although it's possible to keep it in a rational framework. But I prefer to read reviews that have a personal style and avoid gushing statements like "This is the best ever!!!". I also like reviews that focus on historical details, little unearthed nuggets about the band and most importantly, what about those Mellotrons, eh? I have frequently docked stars from albums I really like - I could hardly bring myself to award "Stationary Traveller" 3 stars, for example - but it's not a Masterpiece of Prog - it's hardly even Progressive. I think it's bloody brilliant, but that is only my taste. Likewise, I think that all 3 Muse albums are Masterpieces - but not of Prog Rock. I also cannot stand ELP, and it was quite painful for me to award one of their albums 4 stars (I forget which, as they're all forgettable to me) - but facing reality, it is the duty of every progger to own at least one or two ELP albums, which makes it essential. I like the scoring system here, and I use it when I look at reviews - you can always see who has been trying to "play the game" (and it is a kind of intellectual game), and who thinks they're on RateYourMusic.com. Pity we can't keep the latter out of the charts! |
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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int_2375 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 20 2006 Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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The truth is that people have a tendency to only review what they really like or really dislike. I mean honestly, if I hear an album and don't like it, I'm usually just not going to think about it again, not going to listen to it again, so I'm probably in no position to give it a negative review. However, if I really like the album, I will listen to it a lot, and thus have the knowledge to review it. So albums that you like get an unfair advantage.
Yes, I really believe Tool deserves all the 5 star reviews. I could say the same thing about Genesis, Dream Theater, or Jethro Tull, but obviously a lot of people like them so they must deserve it. I have reviewed 3 of the Tool albums with five star reviews, and have no regrets about it. If I honestly think they are the best albums I have ever heard why would I dock them a star? They appeal to the exact things I look for in music, just as I'm sure most albums have for most 5 star reviews. I hear them as nearly flawless masterpieces, and when I do feel that there is a flaw of some kind, such as the overabundance of segues on AEnima, I point it out.
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Dirk ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 1043 |
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^Maybe i'm over critical here but i have listened to a lot of albums that got a lot of 5 star ratings where i had the impression that they were good albums but no masterpieces.Of course this is my personal feeling about those albums, i just believe that some of the reviewers and raters get a bit carried away by their enthousiasm sometimes, running into trouble when an even better album comes along(you can't give more than 5 stars).
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el böthy ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: April 27 2005 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 6336 |
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mmm I disagree with the first thing you said... For em if the reviewer is giving the album 5 stars it better be because he loves it, or becuase there are seriously no weak points! |
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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el böthy ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: April 27 2005 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 6336 |
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Bingo!!! But yes, there are some reviews which are...so subjective that they are stupid. I remeber on guy used to give every album where Bruford played 5 stars, even the ones he had never heard... ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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"You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Raff ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24440 |
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I think reviews can't help being personal. Even those you read in newspapers or magazines, written by more or less professional people, are coloured by the reviewer's personal attitude to that album (or book, or film...), though it may not immediately seem so. Anyway, I endorse Easy Livin's opinion completely: the personal touch of our reviews is what makes them so special and so valuable.
Of course, there can be a downside to this: when, as others have said before me, somebody writes a review with the sole purpose of sl*gging off an album by a band he or she dislikes. I am no fan of Dream Theater, though I have some of their albums, but I would think twice before writing a review of, say, "Awake" in order to say what a boring album it is. What I could (and probably will) do is to write as honestly as I can about the album's strengths and weaknesses, and explain why it does not do anything for me. It would be next to impossible for me not to get personal in this case and refer to what (musically speaking) makes me tick.
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Chicapah ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 14 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8238 |
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I tend to review albums that I like over albums that I don't because, obviously, I'm much more familiar with the songs and I'm sure that applies to 99% of the reviews. For example, I don't like Drama by Yes. I've tried to listen to it over the years from time to time but I never like what I hear. So it's hard to write an intelligent, objective review of songs I've never gotten familiar with. Much easier to write one for "Fragile" and give it 5 stars because I know every tune by heart. Voila! The only way I can write a 1 star review is to suffer through a listening of the album in question (Like Genesis' "Mama" album) and then proceed to tear it apart. Not a fun way to spend my time. |
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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain
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Tristan Mulders ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 28 2004 Status: Offline Points: 1723 |
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I actually wrote a review for an Alan Parson album yesterday (not typed & submitted yet), which reflectes on holidays to French when I was a child... SO WHAT if it is personal??? If the reviewer writes a good review, thus within the guidelines of the website, what's the reason to complain?
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Interested in my reviews?
You can find them HERE "...He will search until He's found a Way to take the Days..." |
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