Tool overtakes DT on Top List - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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memowakeman View Drop Down

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Topic: Tool overtakes DT on Top List
Posted: August 05 2006 at 00:59

So then The Mars Volta will overtake them all...

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patomtz

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Posted: August 01 2006 at 14:43

I really prefer SFAM, and I think they really deserve it

I still can't get how Dream Theater music is created by humans

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StyLaZyn

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Posted: August 01 2006 at 14:20

Mr. Sanchez wrote:

For me, It is hard to pick which of the two albums is better...I grew up listening to DT, and I enjoy their music very much. It took me a while to get into Tool, but when I eventually did, I loved them to bits! Tool are undoubtedly a great band.To say that Tool have 'overtaken' DT on the list is going a bit far...Sure, Lateralus IS the top of the list, but when you have a look at the whole list you will find that DT has 9 or so albums listed, whereas Tool have only 2.Interesting to know that someone else has an album on the top though

Like you, I got into DT before Tool, although I had heard Tool before DT. Weird, huh? Reason being, I only heard Sober and Prison Sex. I thought they were simply bizarre. But one day I heard Eulogy on the radio. Well, that's all she wrote. I find both bands great, but Tool really as a "je ne sais quoi". Tool remains to me a mystery while DT is quite defined, at least in my book.

akin

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Posted: July 31 2006 at 06:26

I think this topic had changed its original discussion and has already had enough.

Mr. Sanchez View Drop Down

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 22:52

But that is only one PT song of many...

Surely they cannot be categorised differently because of only one song?

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Proghat

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 19:47

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Proghat wrote:

I'm actually really starting to hate seeing Metal on this site. I don't think it belongs on here. I like Dream Theater, Angra, Opeth, Death, Shadow Gallery, Pain of Salvation, Devin Townsend, Porcupine Tree, etc. -- but if I'm in a "PROG" mood, I don't listen to these bands. That's because prog metal is a subgenre of Metal -- not Prog.

*sighs* ... what happened to all the tolerance in the world?

BTW: Why are Porcupine Tree in that list? Wink

I have plenty of tolerance, but there are sometimes whne I feel like grouping the Prog Metal guys with the other Prog guys just causes problems. Also, the reason I listed PT is... Well, listen to Wedding Nails.

eugene

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 17:36

Geck0 wrote:

pirkka wrote:

Geck0 wrote:

Pirkka, also try Pain of Salvation, if you haven't already. They are the proggiest metal band I know of and infact, I find them borderline metal at times. If any prog-metal band deserves to be here, it's Pain of Salvation.

Thanks! Ordered The Perfect Element Vol.1 and Entropia to start with.

Pirkka

Well I hope you enjoy them after my recommendation. Entropia is an excellent album. I don't have The Perfect Element Volume 1 yet, however. If you like them, I recommend Remedy Lane as well. They're quite diverse. BE is their most difficult to get into apparently and I've yet to hear it, so it'll be interesting to see what I think of it.

First of all I fully agree with Geck0's general view on PoS - this is the best prog band using metal stylistics from the whole bunch described as "prog-metal" here.

As to their albums (I have all of them) - I like Entropia the least; BE is probably the second best (most complex and variable) after "12:5", which is my absolutely favourite.

I would definitely recommend you to get DVD of BE - apart from music, quality of which is almost as good as of studio CD, you also get quite of a show there.

And, of course get yourself "12:5" - this is acoustic live versions of older songs and it's absolutely bloody brilliant - and practically no metal sound in it.

Remedy Lane is the third best for me, and the remaining albums are all very good IMO.

carefulwiththataxe

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 17:31

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I just don't understand how anyone could think that DT song structures are not progressive. I know - above I said that we should respect each other's opinions. But if an opinion is factually wrong (can be disproven by facts) then I can't see what's wrong with saying so.

If you really think that DT song strucutres are not progressive, please give me an example ... I'll gladly try to understand your point of view!

I myself used examples how Dream Theater uses different turnaround times, modulations, and signature changes to create a progressive structure to their music. This stuff doesn't happen by accident. I am just fine when people tell me they don't enjoy Dream Theater, but very rarely do I respect a disrespectful claim that Dream Theater doesn't make progressive music.

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Gamemako

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 17:09

OpethGuitarist wrote:

Yea, exactly, you have the same thing with a lot of bands.

Take The Mars Volta for instance.

I am not writing a review on their new album for probably another two months. However, a lot of people listen to one spin, and then rate it a masterpiece or garbage. That is no way to go about reviewing something. You may rate it a masterpiece today and then hate it 6 months from now. I think more people need to really understand what they are rating.

I mean, I've listened to Still Life by Opeth for about 3/4 years now, so I understand almost every aspect of the music and what it offers, and I can give a more accurate rating of it. I call it a masterpiece. In the same manner, I have had Falling Into Infitiny - Dream Theater, for a long time as well. My 1 star rating holds over years of having the album, not because I listened to it yesterday.

Absolutely, utterly, undeniably true.

I have a personal habit of refusing to pass off anything without listening to it twice. Not even rap or death metal. It is entirely impossible to determine the intricacies of any work, no matter how simple, without tasting it twice. If I have any intention of giving an objective review, I put in at least 4 listens over two weeks. The only CD I have reviewed on Progarchives recieved a 4/5 stars after listening for a month. I still listen to the album on occasion.

As for BE, I find it to be an excellent album, but speaking of Pain of Salvation's diverse styles, BE is their showcase. Walk in without an open mind and you'll never listen again. Every song has its place, and every style contributes to the themes of the album. Granted, there are a few tracks on there I didn't particularly enjoy, but they are parts of the whole that are absolutely essential. BE is not a particularly metal endeavor, and their use of highly-distorted, chunky guitar sounds is usually accompanied by a minor key and distorted, strained vocals (case in point -- Lilium Cruentus, which also happens to be one of my favorite tracks on the album :)). I would liken BE to Nabokov's Lolita -- enormously complex and precise, though not necessarily enjoyable at times.

OpethGuitarist View Drop Down

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 15:01

Lets take the Riff at the end of Metropolis Part 1 right before the last verse

If that's not a showcase of something progressive and pushing the boundaries, then maybe I'm completely lost and should start listening to Mainstream Punk or something.

back from the dead, i will begin posting reviews again and musing through the forums

VanderGraafKommandöh View Drop Down

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 11:13

pirkka wrote:

Thanks! Ordered The Perfect Element Vol.1 and Entropia to start with.

Pirkka

Mr. Sanchez View Drop Down

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 09:43

This seems to have turned into another DT thread...again. LOL

I don't think that many people, if any, could explain how DT's song structures aren't progressive. I would gladly be open to hearing otherwise though.

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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 09:26

^ I just don't understand how anyone could think that DT song structures are not progressive. I know - above I said that we should respect each other's opinions. But if an opinion is factually wrong (can be disproven by facts) then I can't see what's wrong with saying so.

If you really think that DT song strucutres are not progressive, please give me an example ... I'll gladly try to understand your point of view!

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bhikkhu

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 09:01

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

bhikkhu wrote:

When I listen to Dream theater, or Tool, I just don't think that the song srtuctures themselves are all that progressive.

Ok, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You should consult a professional musician because you obviously don't know too much about song structure ... Dream Theater may have a a very logical approach to song structure, and people may argue that they are not very original or even derivative (which is a subjective decision), but they're *very* far from standard.

bhikkhu wrote:

But, I will back up your love of of them any day of the week.

Now that I couldn't care less about. You can't disrespect AND respect these bands (or their supporters) at the same time. Either you respect the opinion of Dream Theater supporters (avoiding the word "fan" here) - even if that implies admitting that you *may* be wrong about DT - or you don't.

Easy there Mike. Although I do know a little bit about music, the first part was just my opinion, and should be taken for what it is. I also don't believe I showed any disrespect. I was talking about progressive aspect, not quality. It is possble to not care for a particular style, and still respect it.

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Detric

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 08:22

Good post Sanchez!

Mr. Sanchez View Drop Down

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 07:09

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

The problem is not that I'm 31 years old and someone calls me a youngster - I have no problem with that regardless of whether that is meant to be a joke or whatever. The only problem I have with some of the posters here is:

Disrespect for other opinions

Think about it. You all are entitled to your own opinion, but once you speak about this opinion as if it was fact, you are disrespecting people who have contrary opinions.

I couldn't agree more. I have been reading this thread and found that alot (not all) of what people say is just mindless crap and trashing other peoples opinions...

I am no expert in prog, I don't intend to become one...But all I want to do is enjoy and understand the music I listen to. Alot of people are scared to voice their opinions because they can clearly see that other people use this forum to sit there and tell them how wrong they are. Opinions are never wrong...I don't understand how people think that their opinion should be right. You cannot expect other people to respect what you have to say if you sit there and badmouth what other people think.

What I find amusing, is how people can say how wan*ey Dream Theater are...
Dream Theater are a group full of amazing musicians with enormous talent, if you are so skilled...why not show everyone? I find it amazing how tight they can keep their music, changing not only time signatures, but also key changes and rhythms so fluently and so cleanly. They level of songwriting and Ideas they are at impresses me immensely. SFAM is undoubtedly one of the best DT albums (and Prog Metal) albums written so far...I have listened to this album so many times ever since it was released, and I am NEVER sick of it. The very first DT album I heard was Falling Into Infinity....I was 10 years old and I LOVED it. Almost everyone on PA thinks that Falling Into Infinity is an album that should be thought of as trash...thats all well and good, but I enjoy it and thats all that matters to me.

On the other hand...

It took me about a year of casual listening to get into Tool, Fourty Six and Two being the only song I liked. When I eventually got into Tool, I began to realise how great the band was, in fact I loved them. They write a very different style to that of DT, and that is why I like them. Tool and a very different band, using lost of ambient sort of sounds and slow/quiet sections in their songs which is quite easy listening. This is very different to the fast paced, all-band-member solos of DT, and that is why I love Tool. IMO, Aenima is a better album than Lateralus, but thats my problem, no-one elses.

I am 16 years old, and I love prog music, most people at my age enjoy Punk or Rap, I consider myself lucky to be tuning into Progressive Music, and I don't take it for granted.

- Mr. Sanchez

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pirkka

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 06:46

Thanks! Ordered The Perfect Element Vol.1 and Entropia to start with.

Pirkka

VanderGraafKommandöh View Drop Down

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 06:10

Pirkka, also try Pain of Salvation, if you haven't already. They are the proggiest metal band I know of and infact, I find them borderline metal at times. If any prog-metal band deserves to be here, it's Pain of Salvation.

pirkka

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 06:01

Forgotten Son wrote:

pirkka,

I'd be interested to here what bands you consider Prog with metal influences and vice versa.

This is a good question and I appreceate your interest in my opinion. I first thought of trying to answer in depth but as I see that this discussion is going to a bad direction and people seem to want to misunderstand all that you say (they don't read all, just pick a word and twist it) i'll keep this short and then leave.

Infulences to prog from metal are IMO:

- hectic loud sound masses

- lack of pauses

- triple speed drumming

- cavetroll singing

These are OK when treated musically in a progressive composition. There are lots of bands that champion this: Ayreon, Dream Theater, Riverside to mention a couple. But then there are bands that do not champion so well the metallish elements whos music becomes less interesting: Magellan, Porcupine Tree, Spock's Beard, lots of InsideOut stuff. Don't misunderstand me. These are among my favourite bands but the occaissonal falling into bad metal is dissapointing to me.

Influences from prog to metal IMO:

- use of folk and ethnic melodies

- acoustical instruments or lyricism in intros

- progressive treatment of musical motif

These qualities make IMO metal better. Bands that I know to do this, and that I like, are: Opeth, Tool, Nightwish, Ensiferum, Finntroll, Elegy, Sinphonia, Deadsoul tribe... I have my Symphony X and Meshuggah still in post (I love to hear new music!)

To draw a line is difficult and always a subjective thing, that is: everyone must do it for him/herself. I like both musics but don't want them to mix too much because I want to keep prog (my idea of prog) alive and I am afraid that the hectic life will work for metals favour. I even think that The Mars Volta is kind a metal band. A completely new kind of an metal band: experimental and avantgarde metal.

And please don't (anybody) answer that if you do not understand you don't like bla bla bla. I do like. Period. If you (somebody) don't understand my writing please do not twist it around.

Couln't keep it so short after all...

Thanks. Pirkka

Edited by pirkka - July 30 2006 at 06:05

MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down

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Posted: July 30 2006 at 05:30

The problem is not that I'm 31 years old and someone calls me a youngster - I have no problem with that regardless of whether that is meant to be a joke or whatever. The only problem I have with some of the posters here is:

Disrespect for other opinions

Think about it. You all are entitled to your own opinion, but once you speak about this opinion as if it was fact, you are disrespecting people who have contrary opinions.

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