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fusionfreak 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: August 23 2007 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 1317 |
 Topic: What Happened To You?Posted: June 15 2008 at 03:26 |
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I'm not a punk specialist:I only know the clash(quite good)and Pil.But I always feel like saying that punk
rock is rubbish because 1st of all the playing is often below average(except the Bad Brains who were a
jazz fusion outfit before),moreover this display of violence,dumbness and sometimes fascism(The Exploited,Skrewdriver....fortunately Jello Biafra keeps his eyes open).I'm not saying that all is negative
regarding this genre but when I hear a punk rock star saying that Yes lyrics are useless it makes me nervous,on the contrary concept albums like TFTOC,Close to the edge,Going for the one.....are useful
because they can give somebody good feelings,dreams,beauty,peace.Prog is really useful to me because I live in a country ruled by a far right wing friendly president who doesn't like culture,human rights or freedom.Moreover this man wants to punish the poor,unemployed,outcasts,leftists...and support
businessmen,stupid football stars or bad singers.Most prog albums or krautrock greats(Ash Ra Tempel
for example)tell me I'm true to myself and this is the most important thing.
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I was born in the land of Mahavishnu,not so far from Kobaia.I'm looking for the world
of searchers with the help from crimson king |
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10261 |
Posted: June 12 2008 at 12:33 |
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Random Hold made a second album called "Burn the Buildings", by the way.
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10387 |
Posted: May 03 2008 at 06:03 |
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by the way, the album of Random Hold was produced by Peter Hammill, and it seems there has been some tension between the band and him, to put it mildly
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
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Drachen Theaker
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 22 2005 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 376 |
Posted: May 03 2008 at 04:59 |
Presumably this socially disenfranchised Clash member wasn't Joe 'Diplomat's Son' Strummer who wrote most of the lyrics! My (quite possibly dodgy) theory is that the punks were proto-Thatcherites and their over-throwing of prog was a bit like Maggie getting rid of the old one-nation Tories (Ted Heath et al) whose time she thought had gone. McClaren and Lydon remind me a bit of those cockney wide boy yuppies in stripey shirts on the Stock Exchange sensing the chance for a quick buck.
Can't help thinking there's some historical revisionism going on when people talk about the social reasons behind the rise of punk. Despite the economic problems in the late 70s, were things really that bad for 'the kids'? Old school Labour were in power and there was still a pretty cushy welfare state - the punks could form bands and still get their dole money. Fast forward to the 80s and the DSS would have been forcing them onto job creation schemes - I would have thought there was a lot more to get angry about then... And in genuinely hard times don't people often opt for escapism over social realism - eg. Busby Berkeley musicals in the Depression-era 30s?
(Nice thread by the way)
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"It's 1973, almost dinnertime and I'm 'aving 'oops!" - Gene Hunt
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: May 01 2008 at 10:05 |
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Wakeman's Country Airs does that too: http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=4540
 Edited by darqDean - May 03 2008 at 06:50 |
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12811 |
Posted: May 01 2008 at 08:07 |
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Just spotted this at Amazon.UK trawling for John Themis recordings - the artwork put the New Age/Coda label things together:
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12811 |
Posted: April 30 2008 at 04:26 |
The usual suspect, Levi and he's the only one I'm aware plays violin. Yes there a lot of the Shankar Family in the music business, but any more than the Khan family??
I like PIL's Compact Disc, perhaps for what dissimilar elements Bill Laswell brought into the mix. That's apart from the odd assortment of musicians. For example, check the tune Rise which starts off Balinese gamelon, goes Lydon punk, before shifting into a Vai stun guitar solo, all underpinned by an unmistakable Ginger Baker drum pattern.
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004 Location: plugged-in Status: Offline Points: 5502 |
Posted: April 29 2008 at 22:31 |
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which shankar, ravi or the dude from Shakti (ravishinimishidimidshidi, I always forget his first name).
judging from the time it will be Lakshminarayana, but if it's Ravi or what's his name I will accept it also.
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12811 |
Posted: April 29 2008 at 18:21 |
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I had to copy this across from the Jonas Hellborg thread, to demonstrate the adventure you could sometimes find in 80's rock. Check the line-up on the notorious PIL's Compact Disc, which John Lydon apparently disowned:
(From a gold mine of factuals at http://www.discogs.com) Backing Vocals - Bernard Fowler
Bass - Bill Laswell (tracks: 1 to 6) , Malachi Favors (tracks: 3,5,7) , Jonas Hellborg ( tracks: 4) Drums - Tony Williams* (tracks: 1,2,6) , Ginger Baker (tracks: 3,4,5,7) Guitar - Nicky Skopelitis , Steve Vai Keyboards - Bernie Worrell (tracks: 1,3,4,6) , Ryuichi Sakamoto (tracks: 2,3,5,7) Violin - Shankar (tracks: 2,4) Didjeridu - Steve Turre (tracks: 7)
Chatan - Aiyb Dieng (tracks: 4)
Vocals - John Lydon
Now that's a great mix for progression! |
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12811 |
Posted: April 28 2008 at 18:11 |
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Sal, I 've long said as soon as Police closed up (the cop) shop, Rush seemed to adopted the mantle of Reggata De Blanc for a few albums.
I reminded at what one of the member of Clash said on a documentary only a few years or so ago. "Our family was living in a high rise block, there was the three day week, and us broke - what the f*** use were Yes's lyrics?" An understandable set of social reasons for prog to seem remote and over complicated, and far less relating to the (young) people, not the medium for protest. However, given time and success combined with the confidence of their art and studio craft, elements of Clash are reborn as Big Audio Dynamite (B.I.G). Their first album This Is Big Audio Dynamite, said at the time to be music around a beat box, is far more than that. It is a cut n paste job requiring many hours of studio time, taking samples for spaghetti westerns etc. etc.. Sure, as PIL would also demonstrate, given time the 3 chord punks, ended up doing something far more complex than adrenaline fuelled 3 minute tunes, once they had developed certain skills. |
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salmacis
Forum Senior Member
Content Addition Joined: April 10 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3928 |
Posted: April 28 2008 at 13:22 |
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It's funny but if you ask some of the better New Wave bands of the era what their inspiration was, most of them reference progressive rock bands or the German experimental bands and interestingly, the New Wave filtered its way down to the old wave progressive bands; Genesis sporadically did it successfully ('Mama', 'Keep It Dark') but often unsuccessfully ('Who Dunnit', I'm looking at you) and the Talking Heads influence is arguably detectable on the early 80s King Crimson/Peter Hammill albums IMHO. Rush's 80s albums owe much to the synthesiser led bands of the era (I have an interview with Geddy Lee where he said he saw bands like Ultravox and Human League as progressive) and heck, I'd say Yes' 'Drama' owes much to the clipped sound of The Police, not to mention the involvement of synth pop duo Buggles. Then there's Peter Gabriel's third album which has various New (and indeed, Old) Wave alumni on it.
Not all of them had the same attitude as Dave Stewart (who I've seen been very damning to the punk bands, though I understand his frustration towards Virgin Records- they wouldn't sign National Health despite the previous ties the musicians had to the label) and Mike Oldfield.
It's a two-way process, as I said; Jim Kerr was an unabashed Genesis fan and the spectre of Neu/Kraftwerk is all over those amazing early 80s Simple Minds albums and Howard Devoto of Magazine confessed to being a Floyd and Yes fan back in the 70s. In fact, early Simple Minds and Magazine are my favourites of all that period. I'd say early Ultravox can be linked to the German bands, Roxy Music and arguably Curved Air (also the vastly underrated Cockney Rebel). Even Phil Oakey of The Human League referenced many of the Charisma acts (Genesis, VDGG, String Driven Thing) and Yes and Curved Air as being particularly influential on him. Japan also went on to have various links to progressive rock- not just David Sylvian's work with Robert Fripp but also Mick Karn and Richard Barbieri play in Porcupine Tree. I still think 'Ghosts' is one of the most innovative singles ever produced; you try and find anything in the Top 10 singles charts today that's as brilliantly bizarre as this is!
As for New Age, this was a curious phenomena indeed. I guess in prog Rick Wakeman was the most notable exponent/casualty but it extended beyond that. Van Morrison even dabbled in New Age in the early 80s on the albums 'Beautiful Vision' and 'Inarticulate Speech Of The Heart'- it must have been in-vogue at the time!
Don't like all that synclavier stuff; Stuart Copeland used the hell out of it on his soundtracks from that TV series 'The Equalizer' and I never got the aforementioned Zappa album 'Jazz From Hell'- I just find it so cold and it's ironic that the only song on there I could get into was the guitar instrumental 'St Etienne'.
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12811 |
Posted: April 28 2008 at 05:38 |
It used to be also bookshops in the Derbyshire peaks - I'm guilty of buying a few from such placed 20 years ago - Windham Hill label always managed to have records with a little extra omphf, that means I still listen to those albums. But there were too many obscure labels found amongst the scented candles for relaxography - always with whale song - and played as the shop's musak; the sax instrumentals that made Kenny G, in comparison sound near to Coltrane.
In truth the new age label was a band wagon for the multi-nationals to jump on. EMI had their's for instance with dumbed down jazz fusion (aka fusak) including Ian Carr. The one you mention Coda wasn't too bad (Phillips??) but musically the artists list was a hotch potch, e.g. apart from the ones you give, (the Morrisey Mullen Band spin off ) Hubbards Cubboard, a rather good guitarist John Themis (but closer to new age than jazz fusion and one which include one of Gary Husband's earliest recordings). The American label mentioned, Private Music had a clear cut policy initially (I was their unofficial UK reviewer until they got a UK distributor), to promote electronica, but come the late 80's, Taj Mahal and Leon Redbone joined the roster.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 27 2008 at 19:57 |
My mistake- I just assumed David Ferguson did some vocals
 , the vocalists were originally David Rhodes, Bill MacCormick and Simon Ainley, Ainley was asked to leave before recording sessions for Etceteraville began. (Ainley vocaled tracks are avaialble on Over View - a collection of RH demos) |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 27 2008 at 19:13 |
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Personally I don't find the 80s to be quite the wilderness years as many people do. Regardless of fashion-trends and the mores and foibles of the music press, there will always be musicians who want to make "clever" music and an audience to listen to them and the 80s was no exception. The bands listed by tszirmay were Art Rock, just not Progressive Art Rock. However, I do agree that these bands and artists "toned-down" their music to fit the era, producing shorter, simpler songs because to have done otherwise would have been commercial suicide, most of them were never going to be Top-40 successes, but they still needed the Muso-press on their side (Neo Prog bands followed the same 'rules' but wore their influences more openly and look how the press treated them). But it is difficult to blame the new artists when the old school were doing the same thing - Genesis, Yes, Tull and Floyd weren't really doing anything they hadn't already done in the 70s in terms of writing short accessible songs, they were guilty by omission, by turning away from the long, complex numbers they were better known (and loved) for.
New Age is an oddity that is difficult to separate from those displays of relaxation discs in Garden Centres and Glastonbury-type new-age shops because the music was (let's be honest) insipid. New Age artists followed a similar path to remain viable - simpler tunes, just not (necessarily) shorter ones. There were a few good pieces in there - Claire Hammil's Voices and Stephen Caudel's Bow Of Burning Gold and Wine Dark Sea (all on the Beggar's Banquet offshoot Coda) managed to be interesting enough to stop you nodding off - in another era they would have been called Progressive/Symphonic and only adopted the New Age tag because it was fashionable and it sold discs. (Something that was undoubtably a lure to people like Wakeman, Vangelis, Kitaro and even Tangerine Dream, who all dabbled in New Age/Ambient during the 80s and 90s).
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12811 |
Posted: April 27 2008 at 06:48 |
No apology required, what's the point of a discussion thread, unless people compare notes. At least Iit appears 'm not alone with this thought. BTW I like the thought of the bands keeping a light in the darkness of the 80's. May I suggest though, there was some aspects of these bands not quite being "full strength" like the classic early 70's prog bands???? However, to progress the music has to literally keep moving on, as well as meet the demands of new audiences, whilst technology brings about change as well. A new thought: consider electronica and the move to new age/ambient , which for hardcore prog and jazz fusion fans like myself came with a mixture of dislike/some enjoyment. For instance Private Music Records, in part owned by Tangerine Dream, was a the forefront. Initially there seemed to be accomplished keyboardist putting the ultra expensive Synclavier through its paces but ultimately it became wallpaper or lift music (Musak) - all foreplay and no orgasm. And I should note whilst enjoying some of the cyclic noodlings of Patrick O'Hearn or Eddie Jobson - it took Frank Zappa with Jazz From Hell to give that sub-genre some balls. |
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: April 26 2008 at 21:56 |
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I was fortunate to see Random Hold live in 80s also , opening for Peter Gabriel . The guitarist was David Rhodes , who made the ultimate career move by joining Gabe once the Hold fell apart (Sorry for the pun) and stay faithfully by his side still to this day! I remember the fantastic track Montgomery Clift , a massive bass driven monster (Mr Mac Cormick) full of verve and passion, certainly more agressive than the usual fare but a definite classic. The vocalist was supposed to be Simon Ainley who sang on some Manzanera/801 albums but I guess he wandered off into oblivion. From that period, Ultravox, Magazine , Split Enz, Simple Minds, John Foxx, New Muzik, Modern English The Fixx, Icehouse, Japan, Yello, Telex, Bauhaus, Talk Talk, Moev and a few other more sophisticated bands kept a match lit in the darkness.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 26 2008 at 15:39 |
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Sorry,
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator
Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12811 |
Posted: April 26 2008 at 13:35 |
By coincidence, I was saving The Explorers for my next input - have to think something else now.... I bought the The Explorer's first(?) 12", and then was disappointed buying the LP that followed. However, I think I was relatively disappointed by a run of Manzanera projects through the 80's, including the Mackay and Wetton collaborations. And I think I wasn't ready for Manzanera's Central American jaunts either. There was that thing with singers having no more than a 1/2 to 1 octave range, of which David Sylvian was the best and now with hindsight I think was the most creative. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 25 2008 at 19:27 |
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There is even more of a Prog link to Random Hold than just Bill MacCormick, Peter Hammill produced their first album (a fretful and unhappy event for both parties by accounts) and guitarist David Rhodes is probably more recognisable from his work as Peter Gabriel's guitarist. They toured with Peter Gabriel and XTC in the 80s, I happened to see them a couple of times on both tours and bought albums and 12" singles on the strength of what I'd heard played live. As I recall, the vocalist was listed as Random Hold because three people shared the vocals (David's Rhodes and Ferguson and Bill MacCormick). Musically there were *a little* off from being simple and new-wavy, they were quite dark and morose when pop music was heading more upbeat, poppy and synth-driven - more like the Comsat Angels and The Sound than XTC, Squeeze or The Europeans, (note the sly slipping in of a Marillion connection
 ) There's a good potted history of RH on Phil Manz's website http://www.manzanera.com/index.htm
Anyway, back to the topic
Phil Manzanera, along with Andy Mackay went down a similar path of making shorter, but still not-quite-pop songs in the mid-80s with The Explorers, featuring a little-known vocalist called James Wraith (who had a remarkably Ferryesque vocal style) - there is a live album available that shows what an amazingly good band they were - but they also failed to gain any commercial success./edit: Another Prog band that did a complete style and image change was After The Fire - probably only remembered now as AFT for 80s new-wave synth-pop hits such as One Rule For You, Lazer Love and Der Kommissar, they were originally a Mellotron/Hammond driven symphonic Prog band producing Christian Prog music of mini 11 minute epics in what you could best describe as proto-Neo-Prog - fortunately this era was captured on record as Signs Of Change, recorded in 1978. Edited by darqDean - April 25 2008 at 19:42 |
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: April 25 2008 at 14:08 |
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This reminds me of the rather depressing tales in Dave Stewart's excellent liner notes in the National Health Complete 2 CD set - namely he concluded that as much as he wanted the type of music we all know and love as prog to flourish, that sort of complex, time-shifting music was basically dead on arrival at the end of the 70s and into the 1980s. What you describe as happening with MacCormick makes sense if these players wanted to remain in the music industry - adapt, or quit.
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What Happened To You?
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Dick Heath wrote: