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jplanet View Drop Down
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Points: 799 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Transition of Prog rock
    Posted: December 17 2008 at 02:35
Wow, cool!

I don't know if it's been mentioned before, but it occurred to me since my last post that ELP used to be big on improvisation...Check out any live version of Aquatarkus, every performance was totally different. And the version on "Welcome Back My Friends..." is one of the most inspired and powerful live performances I've ever heard...I'll have to think about it and see if any other examples occur to me...
..::welcome to the shadow circus::..
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NoEarthleyCon. View Drop Down
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Points: 15 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 17 2008 at 01:46
Wow, Jplanet, you finally hit the nail on the head, I believe you might be the only person whos read this thread that actually got my point...thank you
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jplanet View Drop Down
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Points: 799 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2008 at 20:26
Interesting thread, as I'm currently getting my own band to incorporate improvisation into some songs, where there is a determined section of the song that is improvised, then we use visual cues to bring it back in.

Hmmm...could this perhaps be a relatively unexplored area of prog? It occured to me once at Phish concert that they had some decidedly proggy sounding stuff going on...I wonder why more prog/jam fans don't overlap...a skillful improvisation can be an exhilerating musical experience...the ultimate prog, in a way, as each performance of that music can develop further...
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Points: 6336 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 04 2008 at 08:38
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

you heard any of King Crimsons spontaneous stuff?    ..THRaKaTTaK comes to mind



Have you heard King Crimson... period!Wink
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Points: 66004 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2008 at 22:19
Originally posted by Gentlegiantprog Gentlegiantprog wrote:

This may be heresy; so let me preface by stating that I am a huge Crimson fan and go by Kingcrimsonprog on most internet sites...
but I HATE King Crimson's jamming, can't stand it. Especially the noodling in Moonchild and any improv in the 1980's.
With the exception of Ashbury Park off of USA which is awesome.



depends on the jam--  love the stuff on Night watch, don't care for Thrakattak
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Points: 1719 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2008 at 22:12
Originally posted by NoEarthleyCon. NoEarthleyCon. wrote:

So Ivan, I didnt know Yes put you in charge of what is Yes and what isnt Yes. Is Yes with benoit david singing yes? is Yes with trevor horn Yes?

 
Actually, or at least according to her, Pussy Galore is in charge of that. Check out the "Yes? I think not!" threads, where Squire gets Ouch
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Points: 238 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2008 at 18:04
This may be heresy; so let me preface by stating that I am a huge Crimson fan and go by Kingcrimsonprog on most internet sites...
but I HATE King Crimson's jamming, can't stand it. Especially the noodling in Moonchild and any improv in the 1980's.
With the exception of Ashbury Park off of USA which is awesome.

Is it weird to only like Crimson's studio material when they are so praised for jamming ?


Other bands can jam and make it sound musical and like a song, but some can't.
Let the maps of war be drawn !

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Points: 2755 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 03 2008 at 11:20
Originally posted by NoEarthleyCon. NoEarthleyCon. wrote:

Another question I propose is also , why didnt a band like Yes play shows were they would play solos and "jam" like the grateful dead?
It's an attitude that they evolved after Peter Banks left.   They view their works as whole compositions and generally play them as such.   Squire is particularly adamant about this.  Which isn't to say that they won't extend a song to allow a bit of jamming now and then live, but it sure isn't their focus.
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Points: 843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2008 at 13:40
Tony Levin is coming to my mind.Where´s the transition of prog rock here?
This thread is about jamming and improvisation, or am I wrong?
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Points: 1155 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2008 at 11:49
I agree with those who say that being a good musician doesn't necessarily mean being good at improvising, some people tend to prefer structured music and I guess that's what Yes wanted to do. Personally, I prefer music that is spontaneous and improvised, and as a musician, that's what I do best, but everyone has their own talents.
 
and If you liked improvised music, you really should hear the Mars Volta, especially live. Very wild and energetic, and long, yet it never gets boring.
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Points: 12818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2008 at 10:13
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

[QUOTE=NoEarthleyCon.]
 
just listen genesis Live (1973) or Renaissance Live at the Carnegie hall, you'll find that the similarities between their albums and their concerts is amazing, Iván
 
Personally that would be dull. Yes touring The Yes Album in the early 70's, rearranged the live instrumental parts for different instrumental voicing, e.g.  Howe playing bass along side Squire,  when the studio album had guitar and Hammond. How much of that was improv , I can't say but it clearly demonstrated Yes were thinking beyond the box and knew their audience didn't want slavish copies of the originals.
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Points: 12818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2008 at 10:03
Originally posted by fuxi fuxi wrote:

Originally posted by Darklord55 Darklord55 wrote:

The only thing I don't like about jamming is it tends to turn into a noodling session after so long.  And, it can become rather tedious which at time can lose an audience.  The jam band needs to realize when to stop in order to keep things interesting.  Jazz  musicians also have a tendency to noodle a tad bit too long.  Cheers!!



One man's "noodling" is another man's paradise. Prog bands are routinely accused of "noodling" in the mainstream media. There's plenty of "noodling" on Steve Hillage and National Health albums - and I just can't get enough of it!
 
Noodling is when the solist isn't getting his message across. A brilliant solo is when you feel the soul, or the solo belts you in the guts, or effects other emotions. There is a fine divide between the two, with no two members of an audience being equally receptive. 
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Points: 66004 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 22:42
Led Zeppelin live,  man
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Points: 10964 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2008 at 22:33
i think what you're looking for is Frank Zappa, Phish, Umphrey's McGee, and The Mars Volta
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NoEarthleyCon. View Drop Down
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Points: 15 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2008 at 12:20
I meant a broad base in a relavent music scene, im pretty sure that about less than 1 percent of the world really cares about these random prog bands. And basically to answer your question,i just dont like metal, therefore metal prog really doesnt do anything for me either. I tried before, just couldnt do it, the moments I enjoyed would be heavily outweighted by the moments were I would rush my finger to the next button. Im by no means saying that any of these guys are not talented, yet when i think of prog i think of Tales from topographic oceans, not music that sounds like it would want to make you kill people. haha
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Points: 16449 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2008 at 13:58
Originally posted by NoEarthleyCon. NoEarthleyCon. wrote:

Sleeper, I admited that there is progressive rock stil present, but not relavent like other bands from other genres that are similair to prog rock. And no offense to your personal taste, yet i dont consider metal progressive rock, it just doesnt fit my ear.

Your opening post claimed that progressive rock doesnt have a broad base to it, which is completely false as its broader today than it has ever been before.

And by "it just doesnt fit my ear" do you mean you just dont like it, or do you have a reason to not consider metal progressive?
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Points: 7826 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2008 at 13:45
A. Yes has jammed.
B. Jamming doesn't have much to do with prog.
C. Just because you're a good musician doesn't mean you're good at making stuff up on the spot and jamming.
D. Grateful Dead jammed because that IS a characteristic of phsycadelic rock.
E. Jamming is only good sometimes, but when it drags on (like on Led Zeppelin's album The Song Remains The Same) it is overrated.
 
Hope I answered your question!SmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileOuchSmileSmileSmile

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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2008 at 12:41
BTW: Welcome NoEarthlyCon. but get used to the debates, that's the main interest of this site.
 
Imagine how boring Prog Archives would be if you said "I would love to see 15 minutes solo jamming on Yes" and all the members replied.......Me too. Dead Almost as a 45 minutes squire solo Wink (just joking)
 
That wouldn't be a forum, but a fanboy club.
 
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2008 at 12:34
Hey don't be so touchy, this is a discussion forum, if you come here is to discuss, not to expect everybody praising what you say, there will be some that agree and others that disagree, acceopt that and you'll enjoy the forum more.
 
Originally posted by NoEarthleyCon. NoEarthleyCon. wrote:

So Ivan, I didnt know Yes put you in charge of what is Yes and what isnt Yes.

I believe that after almost 30 years of listening yes, i might have an idea of how their music sounds.
 
They never done 15 minutes jamming in their whole history, so obviously I'm only expressing something that's evident for any person that is slightly  familiar with the music of Yes.
 
Originally posted by NoEarthleyCon. NoEarthleyCon. wrote:

Is Yes with benoit david singing yes?
 
Well, whatever the name they choose for the tour, they will be singing exclusively Yes, and pretty similar in all aspects, because the guy sounds almost exactly to Jon Anderson. 
 
Originally posted by NoEarthleyCon. NoEarthleyCon. wrote:

is Yes with trevor horn Yes?
 
Yes it was, it's on their official discography and IMO an outstanding album, much better than the two previous.
 
But that wasn't a jamming album either.
 
 
Originally posted by NoEarthleyCon. NoEarthleyCon. wrote:

Give me a break buddy, all I said is that I would enjoy seeing yes play some songs with extensive solos.
 
What we want is irrelevant, I would love to see Genesis with Peter Gabriel, Steve Hackett, Anthony Phillips and Bruford or Thompson replacing Collins who's best years IMO are behind him, but it won't happen.
 
In the same way Yes is not a jamming band, if they did extensive jamming sessions that wouldn't be the music Yes has played for almost 4 decades, you may like what you want, that's your privilege, but we also can believe it would be boring, depresive and cease to be Yes.
 
That's the beautty of freedom of opinion.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 28 2008 at 12:38
            
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NoEarthleyCon. View Drop Down
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Points: 15 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2008 at 12:09

So Ivan, I didnt know Yes put you in charge of what is Yes and what isnt Yes. Is Yes with benoit david singing yes? is Yes with trevor horn Yes? Give me a break buddy, all I said is that I would enjoy seeing yes play some songs with extensive solos.
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