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mono 
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Joined: May 12 2005
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 Topic: 70's sound and interpretation compared to today
Posted: August 31 2010 at 05:03 |
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I don't have that kind of money, but at least some artist do.
It's critisizing the artist because he CAN chose to do only one take, as he CAN chose to do perfect everything. A lot of artists today have that choice, so if they decide to perfect everything, it's their decision, that's why they would be blamed here...
If you don't have money, you're FORCED to do one take, and that is rarely what you really want...
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https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else
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Rabid
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Posted: August 30 2010 at 15:13 |
 mono wrote:
But then, you are critisizing the artist himself who doesn't know "how to use" his time in the studio...
Plus, I think that most of what you consider as 'spontaneous' is closer to an 'accident'... You cannot strive for spontaneity by simply reducing studio time to minimum, that's just irresponsable. See what I mean?
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I'm not talking about 'striving for sponteneity'......I'm talking about only having enough time to do one take, as opposed to having enough time to perfect everything.
How does that criticize the artist?? By not having enough time ?
(btw, you do realize we're talking hypothetically, don't you?)
I've got just one question......if you've got enough money to be able to afford 2 weeks of studio time experimenting with different recording techniques for the drums, can you lend me some, please?
Boracic Lint. 
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
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Points: 16130
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Posted: August 30 2010 at 09:45 |
richardh wrote:
Anaon wrote:
richardh wrote:
My argument was that nostalgia for a bygone era was overtaking an objective view of what is 'sterile' or not?
I can name 3 massive prog albums made in the seventies that sound sterile to me:
ELP - Pictures At An Exhibition
Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon
Genesis - Selling England By The Pound
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I'm really curious to know why you find Dark Side Of The Moon sounding sterile, can you explain? Thanks |
Always found it one dimensional,flat and lacking any real oomph or warmth for that matter. I can just about get some enjoyment out of it by turning up the volume as loud as my ears can take it. Don't get me wrong I do love most of the songs and in general I like Floyd.However I listen to Wish You Were Here and wonder why DSOTM is so lacking by comparison.Just an opinion of course. |
I think I know what you mean about DSOTM. Not too sure I would agree about SEBTP, but I'm going to stick my neck on the line here, and say DSOTM has more 'pop' production than rock..if that makes sense. I found Supertramp and the post Solar Fire albums by Manfred Manns Earth band to be the same. No criticism of the music, just the way it was presented.
Dave Hentschells work with Genesis also went this way after WAW, imo.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 30595
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Posted: August 30 2010 at 09:31 |
Dean wrote:
richardh wrote:
Alan Parson's production was ground breaking and a reference point. I just don't like it!
The point I was desperately trying to get across was that the seventies saw a fast evolving scene in terms of production with more and more emhasis on mixing and less 'organic' warmth in the sound perhaps occurring even as early as 1971 with ELP- Pictures at an Exihibition.The idea that it all changed sometime around the 80/90's is way off the mark. But we are all progressive rock fans that love the seventies and the whole scene. However this blind nostalgia should not be getting in the way of understanding how music techniques have evolved or perhaps gone backwards in some peoples eyes. Nothing suddenly fell of the end of a cliff though! |
ELP's Pictures at an Exhibition is a live album - it cannot represent evolution in production - it is more a reflection of the skill of Greg Lake in the post production and of Eddie Offord in the live mix and sound engineering. |
But the way its produced makes it sound not very 'live' to my ears. I've never really liked the sound on that album although many swear by it and regard it as great live album. I said earlier in the thread that I prefer the 1970 Lyeceum version that was recorded in mono about 3 months earlier.The difference betwen the two is very marked. That is the comparison I am making. I love the rough and ready version but the 1971 Newcastle city hall in general represents the future. Nice clean sound but a bit too clinical in my opinion.
btw Eddie Offord used the manor mobile didn't he? It was virtually mixed like a studio album although you probably no more about this than me.
btw2 I'm not criticising Eddie Offord. Trilogy and The Yes Album are two beautifully produced albums imo.
Also I'm not saying there was an evolution just saying there was a marked change that happened around that time for either the better or worse depending on your opinion. Again earlier in the thread I said that for some people (not me) the seventies represented a cynical time for rock music where recording techniques overtook the natural creative process.
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mono
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Posted: August 30 2010 at 04:42 |
But then, you are critisizing the artist himself who doesn't know "how to use" his time in the studio... Plus, I think that most of what you consider as 'spontaneous' is closer to an 'accident'... You cannot strive for spontaneity by simply reducing studio time to minimum, that's just irresponsable. See what I mean?
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https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else
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Dean
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: August 30 2010 at 04:28 |
richardh wrote:
Alan Parson's production was ground breaking and a reference point. I just don't like it!
The point I was desperately trying to get across was that the seventies saw a fast evolving scene in terms of production with more and more emhasis on mixing and less 'organic' warmth in the sound perhaps occurring even as early as 1971 with ELP- Pictures at an Exihibition.The idea that it all changed sometime around the 80/90's is way off the mark. But we are all progressive rock fans that love the seventies and the whole scene. However this blind nostalgia should not be getting in the way of understanding how music techniques have evolved or perhaps gone backwards in some peoples eyes. Nothing suddenly fell of the end of a cliff though! |
ELP's Pictures at an Exhibition is a live album - it cannot represent evolution in production - it is more a reflection of the skill of Greg Lake in the post production and of Eddie Offord in the live mix and sound engineering.
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What?
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 30595
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Posted: August 30 2010 at 03:42 |
Anaon wrote:
richardh wrote:
Anaon wrote:
richardh wrote:
My argument was that nostalgia for a bygone era was overtaking an objective view of what is 'sterile' or not?
I can name 3 massive prog albums made in the seventies that sound sterile to me:
ELP - Pictures At An Exhibition
Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon
Genesis - Selling England By The Pound
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I'm really curious to know why you find Dark Side Of The Moon sounding sterile, can you explain?
Thanks
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Always found it one dimensional,flat and lacking any real oomph or warmth for that matter. I can just about get some enjoyment out of it by turning up the volume as loud as my ears can take it. Don't get me wrong I do love most of the songs and in general I like Floyd.However I listen to Wish You Were Here and wonder why DSOTM is so lacking by comparison.Just an opinion of course. |
Sure, only opinion ;) I was asking because Dark Side Of The Moon is considered by many people as a very good example of 70's production model, thanks to Alan Parsons work for example. I do prefer Wish You Were Here in terms of songs, but Dark Side Of The Moon can be considered as a reference in terms of sound.
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Alan Parson's production was ground breaking and a reference point. I just don't like it!
The point I was desperately trying to get across was that the seventies saw a fast evolving scene in terms of production with more and more emhasis on mixing and less 'organic' warmth in the sound perhaps occurring even as early as 1971 with ELP- Pictures at an Exihibition.The idea that it all changed sometime around the 80/90's is way off the mark. But we are all progressive rock fans that love the seventies and the whole scene. However this blind nostalgia should not be getting in the way of understanding how music techniques have evolved or perhaps gone backwards in some peoples eyes. Nothing suddenly fell of the end of a cliff though!
Edited by richardh - August 30 2010 at 03:43
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
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Points: 512
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Posted: August 29 2010 at 07:13 |
Dean wrote:
The frustration of a musician in the studio and the desire to do take after take is not always because they are striving for note-perfection, but in imbibing the piece with the emotion he feels when he hears the piece in his head so what comes out of the studio monitor sounds the same to him. It's similar to how your spoken voice sounds to you "in your head" to how it sounds on a recording. Tweaking notes and adding overdubs in ProTools is a compromise that still fails to reach the "perfection" the artist is looking for.
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Yessir......I'd rather leave a bum note in, if it felt more 'right' than the right note.....that's happening more and more to me, these days...especially on vocal tracks. 
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
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Posted: August 29 2010 at 06:58 |
BaldJean wrote:
mono wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
ahem. I don't quite follow you. time reduces risks
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Maybe "risk" wasn't adapted here, but your statement is still quite simplistic.
If you have more time, you can take more chances (maybe that word is better). Example: if you have 3 months for your recording instead of 1, you can afford to spend 2 weeks experimenting let's say a new recording technique for the drums...
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you can do the same if you only have one day. it just becomes more risky. that's why I say "time reduces risks". try something new without knowing if it will work. if you have enough time to make it work there is no risk |
Seconded.......you lose that spontaneous element, through having time to 'perfect' everything.
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Rabid
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Posted: August 29 2010 at 06:50 |
richardh wrote:
My argument was that nostalgia for a bygone era was overtaking an objective view of what is 'sterile' or not?
I can name 3 massive prog albums made in the seventies that sound sterile to me:
ELP - Pictures At An Exhibition
Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon
Genesis - Selling England By The Pound
I'm not arguing whether they have great songs or music or playing. Just a sound that is a bit lifeless to my ears. In ELP's case I'll take the 1970 Lyceum rough and ready mono version of Pictures anyday over the 1971 Newcastle City Hall /Eddie Offord produced stereo version . Both were recorded within about 3 months of each other.
As for an example of a modern recording then to me Absolution by Muse has more life than any of the those put together. |
What are you listening to Dark Side of the Moon on ? Alan Parsons got a Grammy award for the production on that....they don't give them out lightly. 
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: August 29 2010 at 04:45 |
BaldFriede wrote:
richardh wrote:
As an ELP fan I've noticed one or two comments about Keith Emerson being 'sloppy' when he plays. I actually agree with that but to be honest I prefer listening to him play when he doesn't make mistakes!
Anyway all these mistakes that prog bands made in the seventies to make their records more 'real'. Please can I have a list? |
I am not talking of actual bun notes or the likes. it is the slight imperfections that make it sound organic.
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I wouldn't call those mistakes or even imperfections, that's touch, expression and feeling. A violin maestro complaining about their own mistakes is a combination of self-modesty and their ambition of reaching absolute perfection of performance - not in playing the notes precisely as the composer wrote them, but in the expression of what their interpretation of the piece means to them. In those cases you can sometimes forgive a bum note if it is played well (eg Hendrix live was sloppy and has many bum/fluffed notes but you can often forgive those for how he played them)
The frustration of a musician in the studio and the desire to do take after take is not always because they are striving for note-perfection, but in imbibing the piece with the emotion he feels when he hears the piece in his head so what comes out of the studio monitor sounds the same to him. It's similar to how your spoken voice sounds to you "in your head" to how it sounds on a recording. Tweaking notes and adding overdubs in ProTools is a compromise that still fails to reach the "perfection" the artist is looking for.
What kills modern production for some people (aside from the loudness of the mastering, which is a different thing altogether and something at afflicts remasters of old recordings too) is the clarity of the recording that allows wider separation between instruments, layers and individual notes which means that some of that actually gets lost when played back in a typical domestic environment. It has already been mentioned that the bass guitar is perceptibly louder in 70s recordings - this was necessary to achieve the audible separation from the drums, in modern recordings this is achieved by altering the tone of both instruments using EQ ans channel compression, so the bass can be mixed at lower volumes. The problem with that is when you play it back in a living room (as opposed to a studio) the acoustic imperfections and reflections in the room muddle that separation back up again and the bass disappears (cue John Myung). You can hear this in how dums sound in old recordings compared (mellow, rounded, warm, with slow attack and lots of sustain in each hit) to the modern drum sound (sharper, crisper, punchy with sharp attack and little sustain), which when taken to the extreme sounds more like an 80s drum machine than an 80s drum machine does.
Edited by Dean - August 29 2010 at 04:51
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: August 29 2010 at 03:37 |
richardh wrote:
Always found it one dimensional,flat and lacking any real oomph or warmth for that matter. I can just about get some enjoyment out of it by turning up the volume as loud as my ears can take it. Don't get me wrong I do love most of the songs and in general I like Floyd.However I listen to Wish You Were Here and wonder why DSOTM is so lacking by comparison.Just an opinion of course. |
DSotM and WYWH are polar opposites in emotional content and I think that showing through in the respective "production" is not entirely accidental. Those famous opening three notes of Shine On are plaintive, longing notes (played with robotic perfection, but with emotion and feeling) that set the tone of the album and encompasses the feeling of loss and separation and the warmth reflects that personal connection between the band and Syd Barrett. DSotM reflects a different set of human emotions, (all be it equally melancholic), again with the opening notes (of Breathe) setting the tone of the album emotionally and reflects the distance between the band and what they are writting about.
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resurrection
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Joined: August 08 2010
Location: London
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Posted: August 29 2010 at 01:27 |
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When progressive rock began it was all about invention and musicianship, it was probably the zenith of pop/rock music. Of course, the danger with this approach is that it goes beyond what it should and becomes eccentric and idiosyncratic. By the very nature of experimentation and invention, this is almost inevitable, especially among musicians who are not natural writers, and the genre isolates itself, disappearing into its own complexities. I think we see this clearly with most bands who play within the form for too long. It's extremely important for a band's credibility that it remembers taste and sense within its working parameters, otherwise it becomes (or leans towards) meaningless nonsense, making a dinosaur out of the form. To a large extent, this is what has happened, which is a shame, for the concept is highly commendable, otherwise we wouldn't be here looking in the first place. We live in hope of finding flashes of that original spirit among the debris of what's left.
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Anaon
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Posted: August 28 2010 at 16:05 |
richardh wrote:
Anaon wrote:
richardh wrote:
My argument was that nostalgia for a bygone era was overtaking an objective view of what is 'sterile' or not?
I can name 3 massive prog albums made in the seventies that sound sterile to me:
ELP - Pictures At An Exhibition
Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon
Genesis - Selling England By The Pound
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I'm really curious to know why you find Dark Side Of The Moon sounding sterile, can you explain?
Thanks
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Always found it one dimensional,flat and lacking any real oomph or warmth for that matter. I can just about get some enjoyment out of it by turning up the volume as loud as my ears can take it. Don't get me wrong I do love most of the songs and in general I like Floyd.However I listen to Wish You Were Here and wonder why DSOTM is so lacking by comparison.Just an opinion of course. |
Sure, only opinion ;) I was asking because Dark Side Of The Moon is considered by many people as a very good example of 70's production model, thanks to Alan Parsons work for example. I do prefer Wish You Were Here in terms of songs, but Dark Side Of The Moon can be considered as a reference in terms of sound.
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rogerthat
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Location: .
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Posted: August 27 2010 at 23:35 |
mono wrote:
Do you think Gavin Harrison's playing is sterile? I find it 'perfect' on many many PT tracks, because perfect is certainly not "machine-like", it's a perfect execution of an idea, a style, a groove. And those are all far from being sterile, because these are personnal features. Just like the composition itself.
I am not saying the only difference between then and now is nostalgia.
I'm saying that, the influence of labels/producers/media/money left aside, and considering the artist has the freedom to make the music he wants in the conditions he chooses (reasonably), he doesn't lose ANYTHING compared to the 70's.
I am not saying that we necessarly have a better sound today, I'm saying that we still have the opporunity, if we wanted to, to create 70's conditions and even better ones.
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But that's a theoretical hypothesis and even if I might agree with that, the point here is about how things ARE, and not how they could be. The great change in rock around the late 70s is what a lot of people haven't warmed up to - and no reason why they should force themselves to, because it's not a tasteful change - and that's what they are probably referring to, only they might mistakenly attribute it entirely to production or sounds. It boils down to the choices composers from the 70s made as opposed to today. How did so many people able to nail falsetto or mixed voice screams touching the soprano C crop up in the 80s? From where did so many metal shred guitarists emerge? It shows that priorities changed around the late 70s/early 80s and there was more focus on some narrow technical aspects (which doesn't necessarily establish that these singers/guitarists were all incomparably better than the ones before them) at the expense of expression. Many of these metal shredders lack a vibrato worth the name and many of these singers are able to project only a very limited set of expressions. Yes, there may be bands even today who don't tread those paths, but people are talking of general tendencies here and you can't point to the minority to disprove a generalization (something that happens all the time in the net, lamentably).
Edited by rogerthat - August 27 2010 at 23:36
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shockedjazz
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Posted: August 27 2010 at 17:07 |
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Love the raw sound of vinyl,
Two groups comes to my mind specially:
Creedence y Led Zep.
Love the sound of the needle when the song thats about to start is "Friends"
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
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Points: 10387
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Posted: August 27 2010 at 16:49 |
mono wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
ahem. I don't quite follow you. time reduces risks
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Maybe "risk" wasn't adapted here, but your statement is still quite simplistic.
If you have more time, you can take more chances
(maybe that word is better). Example: if you have 3 months for your
recording instead of 1, you can afford to spend 2 weeks experimenting
let's say a new recording technique for the drums...
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you
can do the same if you only have one day. it just becomes more risky.
that's why I say "time reduces risks". try something new without knowing
if it will work. if you have enough time to make it work there is no
risk
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 30595
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Posted: August 27 2010 at 16:35 |
Anaon wrote:
richardh wrote:
My argument was that nostalgia for a bygone era was overtaking an objective view of what is 'sterile' or not?
I can name 3 massive prog albums made in the seventies that sound sterile to me:
ELP - Pictures At An Exhibition
Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon
Genesis - Selling England By The Pound
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I'm really curious to know why you find Dark Side Of The Moon sounding sterile, can you explain?
Thanks
|
Always found it one dimensional,flat and lacking any real oomph or warmth for that matter. I can just about get some enjoyment out of it by turning up the volume as loud as my ears can take it. Don't get me wrong I do love most of the songs and in general I like Floyd.However I listen to Wish You Were Here and wonder why DSOTM is so lacking by comparison.Just an opinion of course.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 30595
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Posted: August 27 2010 at 16:30 |
rogerthat wrote:
richardh wrote:
My argument was that nostalgia for a bygone era was overtaking an objective view of what is 'sterile' or not?
I can name 3 massive prog albums made in the seventies that sound sterile to me:
ELP - Pictures At An Exhibition
Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon
Genesis - Selling England By The Pound
I'm not arguing whether they have great songs or music or playing. Just a sound that is a bit lifeless to my ears. In ELP's case I'll take the 1970 Lyceum rough and ready mono version of Pictures anyday over the 1971 Newcastle City Hall /Eddie Offord produced stereo version . Both were recorded within about 3 months of each other.
As for an example of a modern recording then to me Absolution by Muse has more life than any of the those put together. |
Your opinion, but those three albums have far too many raw sounds to sound sterile, perhaps you mean smooth? There are sterile recordings from the 70s, obviously, most ABBA, Foreigner. Steely Dan can sound a bit sterile too and that's coming from a huge fan. Absolution is a good recording and not one that I would call sterile. |
Sorry badly worded in respect of Absolution. This is in my opinion the very opposite of sterile and I was giving an example of a recent recording that to me has more life than many supposedly better classic recordings. But then Origin Of Symmetry (their previous album) does sound a bit sterile to my ears although it has great songs.
Of course its all in my opinion. Their is actually no objective way to determine sterilty in sound. Dark Side sounds sterile (to me) because its 'flat'. Perhaps 'smooth' is what I really meant though.Does have great songs and playing but I thoroughly hate what Alan Parsons did to it.I've seen the whole album performed live and its amazing in that environment.
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NeoGnostic
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Posted: August 27 2010 at 14:36 |
There is something in the quality of the 6O's, 7O's bands that may be unattainable to this next generation of bands. Music now has a very strong visual element. The older music had only an album-cover and the listener's imagination; much the same (or maybe exactly the same) as old radio programs relied on the listener's imagination to construct an inner picture. 
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70's sound and interpretation compared to today
