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toolis View Drop Down
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Points: 1678 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: excludin' prog related bands from top100
    Posted: October 02 2006 at 14:53
    

you can easily understand my proposal... i think now that IM are here, there is a big chance that their releases will climb up the top100... wouldn't it be unfair to eventually see eg "Number Of The Beast" higher than any eg Rush LP? and maybe the same should be for Proto-Prog releases...
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sometimes amateurs turn us on, even more...



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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2006 at 15:08
This was something the admin team and owners discussed recently. For the time being there will be no change, but we will continue to keep this under review, and we are aware of the type of potential situation you describe.
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Points: 20056 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2006 at 16:23
I agree - proto-prog and prog-related should be excluded. In theory we could have "Please Please Me" as our number one prog album. As much as I love The Beatles, that would clearly be ridiculous.
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Points: 46301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2006 at 16:31
sure, it can go both ways. the issue here are bands of a "popular" appreciation (or whatever you want to call) coming above the actual quality or the actual "representativeness". all out of the simplest algorithm. however what happens to other bands or artists that shouldn't actually deserve to be separated. Is Prog-Related a completely detached subject? Is Proto-Prog a completely incipient form? 
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Points: 86 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2006 at 16:38

Hehehehe   you've got good humour LOL
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Points: 5502 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 02 2006 at 16:47
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

I agree - proto-prog and prog-related should be excluded. In theory we could have "Please Please Me" as our number one prog album. As much as I love The Beatles, that would clearly be ridiculous.
 
In theory it can happen, but knowing the visitors to this site, I doubt it ever will.
 
theory and practice are not the same.
 
I don't think it will be of any real effect, so like Easy Livin said, keep it under review, and if such a thing appears there may be a need to intervene, but untill than, no problem's on the horizon.
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Points: 3613 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2006 at 20:29
I honestly can't see it happening.

On the other hand, some prog-related bands became "prog-related" because a portion (in some cases a bulk) of their career was not considered prog, but they had issued a few gems that were clearly prog. If one of those gems makes it into the Top 100, then I believe it has earned it and shouldn't be penalized just because the band later abandoned it's "progressiveness." Admittedly, this isn't the case for all prog-related bands, but I think it's a point worth noting.
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Points: 5109 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2006 at 21:38
    I don't understand what the basis of the fear is. Will the prog world come tumbling down if Iron Maiden makes it into the top 100? If they do, all that means is there are a lot of Iron maiden fans here, nothing more.

And, as already stated, it's not very likely that this will happen. If reviewers follow the guidelines, a non-prog album should never get five stars. I reviewed all of the early Beatles albums, and (as much as it killed me to do so ) kept the rating system in mind.
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Points: 21802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2006 at 03:10
Originally posted by bhikkhu bhikkhu wrote:

    I don't understand what the basis of the fear is. Will the prog world come tumbling down if Iron Maiden makes it into the top 100? If they do, all that means is there are a lot of Iron maiden fans here, nothing more.

And, as already stated, it's not very likely that this will happen. If reviewers follow the guidelines, a non-prog album should never get five stars. I reviewed all of the early Beatles albums, and (as much as it killed me to do so ) kept the rating system in mind.


Fact is that the list doesn't show whether an album is prog or not. It just looks like that:

#49: Gentle Giant - Playing the Fool - The Official Live
#50: Wishbone Ash - Argus
#51: Pain of Salvation - TPE 1

Of course this list insinuates that Wishbone Ash are prog - you would have to click on the album and look for the two words "prog-related" in the whole page to find out that they're not.

I think the list definitely needs to be changed so that it separates prog from non prog. Why doesn't Max simply make two lists:

1. Top 100 prog studio albums
2. Top 10 prog related albums

Smile
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Points: 1823 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2006 at 03:35
I am in favour of this proposal. Whilst I don't think that a non-prog band will ever reach number 1, it is misleading to visitors of the site to see non-prog bands in the Top 100. They might buy these albums and be disappointed.


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Points: 1475 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2006 at 03:42
I would also like to see DVD's removed from the list.
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Points: 20598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2006 at 04:10
DVDs are not a problem for me (are there any in the top 100, anyway?), but if we are strictly talking of studio albums, then the Live albums musy go too.
 
And for exculding the proto and related, I guess this would actually easen up the tensions everytime a new prog-related group is included.
 
 
So although I could not care less of a hoot about those top lists, I support this in order to bring more peace to the site.
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2006 at 04:49
Your example is an interesting one Mike. For me and many others, "Argus" is an excellent prog album. Wishbone Ash were essentially added because of that album. If prog related was excluded, "Argus" would be robbed of its rightful place (in my opinion).
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Points: 21802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2006 at 05:21
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Your example is an interesting one Mike. For me and many others, "Argus" is an excellent prog album. Wishbone Ash were essentially added because of that album. If prog related was excluded, "Argus" would be robbed of its rightful place (in my opinion).



Well, the *only* perfect solution to this problem - is implemented on my websiteWink, where not only the genre assignments are moved to the album level (e.g. "Pilgrimage" is prog-related, but "Argus" is prog), but also each user can participate in making these assignments.

But I guess separating prog and prog related is the best "easy" solution to the problem.
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2006 at 09:11
I knew you'd say that!LOL It is something M@x is looking at implementing.

Edited by Easy Livin - October 12 2006 at 09:11
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Points: 21802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2006 at 09:13
^ well, for a start he could really remove live albums from the top 100 - that's an incredibly easy fix.Smile
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Points: 20598 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2006 at 09:15
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ well, for a start he could really remove live albums from the top 100 - that's an incredibly easy fix.Smile
 
and DVDs as well, then
 
if there are any.
let's just stay above the moral melee
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Points: 21802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2006 at 09:16
^ obviously. Only studio albums should be listed ... of course a separate top DVD list would be interesting, too.
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Bob Greece View Drop Down
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Points: 1823 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2006 at 09:19
That's right - remove live albums and DVDs.


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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2006 at 09:25
Noted, I'll make sure he's aware of these proposals.
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