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paolo.beenees 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 1136
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 Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:33 |
In Italian "campanilista" is a person who thinks and talks as if his own land (or even his own town) were the centre of the universe.
That's one of my several defects, so I'll talk about Italy, of course. The departure of Nino Smeraldi (guitar) and Claudio Galieti (bass) left Le Orme as a trio. Tagliapietra became the main composer, while Tony Pagliuca turned out to be a very fine lyricist. But, apart from that, the band had to find a new identity, left the psychedelic/beat sound of "Ad Gloriam" behind its shoulders and turned into the symph-prog power trio that we all know.
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1800iareyay
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2492
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:33 |
 Melomaniac wrote:
1800iareyay wrote:
Banks and Rutherford are every bit as responsible. They made no move to hire a new guitarist, and they wrote much of the insipid material of the post-Hackett era. Sure, Collins has a share of the blame, but it's just that, a SHARE. |
You have seen the light.
The thing is people bash on Collins because he was so succesful in his solo career and they tend to blend Genesis/Collins' solo career together. To the best of my knowledge, Collins never recorded songs like Domino, The Brazilian, Home By the Sea, Driving the Last Spike or Fading Lights on ANY of his solo album.
Bottom line is, if people really hate late Genesis, I'm ok with that, just leave us more open-minded folks appreciate it without bashing us in the process. This place would be ever more peaceful. |
To be honest, I can't stand the trio Genesis, with the exception of And Then There Were Three. I find it to be banal pop. However, I love love Rush's synth era, which usually receives the smae criticism. Personally, I blame they awful lyrics. Rush wrotes ome of their darkest material then, while Genesis' is light. I just can't stand it when everyone blames Collins. I grew up thinking Phil was a no talent hack because of the general opinion of him. I wasn't until I heard Brand X and the classic Genesis that I knew how gifted he is.
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emdiar
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 05 2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 890
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:35 |
I am not at all a "prog purist". My tastes are extremely eclectic, and I dare say as broad if not broader than a lot of people's on this site. Your hero Collins happens to be a brilliant drummer and a highly talented song writer, HOWEVER, he spits in the faces of the people who brought him his success by calling prog "boring old sh*t"! I He'd love to distance himself from us, the people who put him where he is today, by disowning his past and in so doing trying to court favour with the middle of the road majority who spend millions on bland pop music. It seems someone CAN be that narrow minded, and that person is Phil Collins.
Rutherford and Banks could release an R'n'B album and I'd still respect them. I wouldn't buy it, but I'd respect their right to do it. You just can't accept that my (and very many prog fan's) grievances are legitimate because it would pain you to admit that Collins is laughing at you all the way to the bank.
Edited by emdiar - July 06 2007 at 11:36
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Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
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Points: 8543
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:38 |
Melomaniac wrote:
1800iareyay wrote:
Banks and Rutherford are every bit as responsible. They made no move to hire a new guitarist, and they wrote much of the insipid material of the post-Hackett era. Sure, Collins has a share of the blame, but it's just that, a SHARE. |
You have seen the light.
The thing is people bash on Collins because he was so succesful in his solo career and they tend to blend Genesis/Collins' solo career together. To the best of my knowledge, Collins never recorded songs like Domino, The Brazilian, Home By the Sea, Driving the Last Spike or Fading Lights on ANY of his solo album.
Bottom line is, if people really hate late Genesis, I'm ok with that, just leave us more open-minded folks appreciate it without bashing us in the process. This place would be ever more peaceful. |
I like a lot of later Genesis stuff, but never cared much for IT or WCD, with the exception of the songs you mentioned above. But IT and WCD were group efforts, and all three are responsible for the quality or lack-thereof of both of those albums. In fact, it was actually Collins who wrote the lyrics to Driving the Last Spike, so he had a hand in one of the more epic tracks off of WCD. IT and WCD don't get many spins in my cd player, unlike most of the rest of the Genesis catalogue, but I see no reason to bash them or Phil in particular for those two albums. Just don't listen to them if you don't like them. I'm grateful that Phil was around to help keep the band alive after the loss of PG, allowing them to give us many more years of great music. So what if they put out a clunker or two.
Edited by The Doctor - July 06 2007 at 11:39
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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laplace
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:40 |
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Rock on, emdiar. =)
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:49 |
Phil Collins, Musical Express interview 1990:
"On a generous day I'll blame me for the change, but I just think it is us growing up, listening to different things. We were always a group of songwriters who would write three-, 10- and 20-minute songs. We still write 10-minute songs, like Last Domino, but, unfortunately, the three-minute songs have gotten better and become hits. I don't feel we've b*****dized the way we were, as we still work the same way. Diehard fans will say, 'Rubbish. Carpet Crawlers, I Know What I Like - that was progressive!' But I don't see that. We'd have killed for hit singles back in the early days."
Collins is undoubtedly the most visible and popular member of Genesis, but he stresses he is "just an equal member - I don't dominate Genesis, it's just that since Duke [1980], I've become an equal third. To those that wish I'd go back to being subservient to Mike and Tony, well, we're all changing. I answer those fans by saying: 'Do you still wear bellbottoms, read the same books, like the same kind of girls? Of course not. Well, we don't like the same kind of music. Allow us to change."
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What?
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:51 |
emdiar wrote:
I am not at all a "prog purist". My tastes are extremely eclectic, and I dare say as broad if not broader than a lot of people's on this site. Your hero Collins happens to be a brilliant drummer and a highly talented song writer, HOWEVER, he spits in the faces of the people who brought him his success by calling prog "boring old sh*t"! I He'd love to distance himself from us, the people who put him where he is today, by disowning his past and in so doing trying to court favour with the middle of the road majority who spend millions on bland pop music. It seems someone CAN be that narrow minded, and that person is Phil Collins.
Rutherford and Banks could release an R'n'B album and I'd still respect them. I wouldn't buy it, but I'd respect their right to do it. You just can't accept that my (and very many prog fan's) grievances are legitimate because it would pain you to admit that Collins is laughing at you all the way to the bank. |
First off, I'd like to see the reference Collins made about Prog and see the context surrounding this statement.
You talk like Collins had no choice. He could have left the band and kept his solo career. He may have made more money of his solo career so it isn't like he needed Genesis.
We can't accept close-mindedness. And if Collins profitting off us was a problem, we wouldn't partake in buying the albums/DVDs/etc of Genesis trio material. Wait a minute? Don't all musicians make music to profitt? You speak like there is something wrong in this.
I don't see the grievance as legit. It is elitist separatism plain and simple.
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 7659
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:56 |
Fine words about Le Orme, I remember being a fan of the trio and then I heard the pop-psychedelic sound of the first line-up, not really my cup of tea.
About Genesis, this kind of discussions appear in every thread and I am guilty too because I am so frustrated about the poppy sound of The Collins Trio that I start to participate again and again. For example, last week I witnessed the DVD Genesis Live In London 1980, great track list, the instrumentals parts are performed very well but that voice of Phil, so harsh and on stage he acts like a child who is allowed to do his tricks in order to get attention, what a contrast with the magical performances by Peter Gabriel 
Edited by erik neuteboom - July 06 2007 at 11:58
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emdiar
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 05 2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 890
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 12:24 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
emdiar wrote:
I am not at all a "prog purist". My tastes are extremely eclectic, and I dare say as broad if not broader than a lot of people's on this site. Your hero Collins happens to be a brilliant drummer and a highly talented song writer, HOWEVER, he spits in the faces of the people who brought him his success by calling prog "boring old sh*t"! I He'd love to distance himself from us, the people who put him where he is today, by disowning his past and in so doing trying to court favour with the middle of the road majority who spend millions on bland pop music. It seems someone CAN be that narrow minded, and that person is Phil Collins.
Rutherford and Banks could release an R'n'B album and I'd still respect them. I wouldn't buy it, but I'd respect their right to do it. You just can't accept that my (and very many prog fan's) grievances are legitimate because it would pain you to admit that Collins is laughing at you all the way to the bank. |
First off, I'd like to see the reference Collins made about Prog and see the context surrounding this statement.
You talk like Collins had no choice. He could have left the band and kept his solo career. He may have made more money of his solo career so it isn't like he needed Genesis.
We can't accept close-mindedness. And if Collins profitting off us was a problem, we wouldn't partake in buying the albums/DVDs/etc of Genesis trio material. Wait a minute? Don't all musicians make music to profitt? You speak like there is something wrong in this.
I don't see the grievance as legit. It is elitist separatism plain and simple.
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Where do I say making a profit is wrong? Making a profit and then cynically insulting those whose money you have taken, THAT'S what pisses me off. Nothing else.
Just one more time for clarity, cus you guys seem caught up on the "It wasn't all Phil's fault" argument, I don't give a flying fcuk if Phil or anyone else dedicates the rest of their carrier to recording their own farts, but as soon as they try to make out their prog history was just some big mistake, because fashion dictates that they disassociate themselves from it and their former fans, than I lose all respect for them. Rutherford, Banks, Gabriel, Jon Anderson, Wakeman, Bruford, even Steve Hillage, who has taken to making house music, none have dissed their back catalogue like Collins has.
As a drummer, singer and song smith, respect is due. As a person I have no respect for him at all.
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Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.
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Wilcey
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2696
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 12:31 |
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emdiar
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 05 2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 890
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 12:33 |
erik neuteboom wrote:
Fine words about Le Orme, I remember being a fan of the trio and then I heard the pop-psychedelic sound of the first line-up, not really my cup of tea.
About Genesis, this kind of discussions appear in every thread and I am guilty too because I am so frustrated about the poppy sound of The Collins Trio that I start to participate again and again. For example, last week I witnessed the DVD Genesis Live In London 1980, great track list, the instrumentals parts are performed very well but that voice of Phil, so harsh and on stage he acts like a child who is allowed to do his tricks in order to get attention, what a contrast with the magical performances by Peter Gabriel |
Jongen, I couldn't agree more.
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Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.
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emdiar
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 05 2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 890
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 12:39 |
 . I can imagine how he talks about his ex-wives. "Yeah, I never really loved her, you know, it's just the way thing were at the time, people change you know, the marriage was boring sh*t....etc."
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Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.
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emdiar
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 05 2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 890
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 12:55 |
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And before anyone starts, Wakeman dissed TFTO from day one, and not as an after thought, and certainly didn't bring other bands into the equation, like Phil dissing the Floyd!
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Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact.
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 13:01 |
emdiar wrote:
And before anyone starts, Wakeman dissed TFTO from day one, and not as an after thought, and certainly didn't bring other bands into the equation, like Phil dissing the Floyd! |
So did you find that Collins quote reference?
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 13:14 |
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Just because Collins was with a progressive rock band does not mean that he must love progressive rock as much as we do. If he thinks it's boring that's his right. Note that he said absolutely nothing derogatory about progressive music fans. All he said was basically that he finds prog boring. I've had friends and girlfriends who felt the same way. Collins being a part of prog history does not obligate him to be a fan. Nor is he obligated to keep his opinion of music to himself. Just as I have the right to say that I find some of Collins' solo work to be boring. And a couple of later Genesis albums.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 13:30 |
When politicians are caught doing stupid things, they should start talking about Phil Collins... it's such a great way to drive conversations completely out of topic....
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 13:32 |
The T wrote:
When politicians are caught doing stupid things, they should start talking about Phil Collins... it's such a great way to drive conversations completely out of topic.... |
Holy crap. No kiddin'.
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E-Dub
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 24 2006
Location: Elkhorn, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 7910
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 13:47 |
Rich, better not let Garten catch you listening to Pallas or else this little tug of war you're having with Emdiar will seem like a tickle fight!!! 
Myself, I love that Pallas disc!!!
E
iTunes: "Rope Ends" from Pain Of Salvation's Remedy Lane
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StyLaZyn
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4079
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 13:54 |
E-Dub wrote:
Rich, better not let Garten catch you listening to Pallas or else this little tug of war you're having with Emdiar will seem like a tickle fight!!!
Myself, I love that Pallas disc!!!
E
iTunes: "Rope Ends" from Pain Of Salvation's Remedy Lane |
Well wait until it updates again. Woohoo, the sparks will fly then!!!! Prog Elitists beware!!! Classic non-Prog might just irritate you.
"The Last Angel" is a great cut off The Dreams of Men
Remedy Lane...I need to find it and cue it up!
Edited by StyLaZyn - July 06 2007 at 13:55
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E-Dub
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 24 2006
Location: Elkhorn, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 7910
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Posted: July 06 2007 at 13:57 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
E-Dub wrote:
Rich, better not let Garten catch you listening to Pallas or else this little tug of war you're having with Emdiar will seem like a tickle fight!!! Myself, I love that Pallas disc!!! E iTunes: "Rope Ends" from Pain Of Salvation's Remedy Lane |
Well wait until it updates again. Woohoo, the sparks will fly then!!!! Prog Elitists beware!!! Classic non-Prog might just irritate you.
"The Last Angel" is a great cut off The Dreams of Men
Remedy Lane...I need to find it and cue it up! |
I thought it surpassed The Cross & The Crucible by leaps and bounds. "The Last Angel" is probably my favorite. "Warriors" is pretty powerful, too. Brings back 9/11 memories, though.
Remedy Lane is simply hitting the spot right now.
Sorry to get off topic.
E
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