The departure that turned out to be a real boost!
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Topic: The departure that turned out to be a real boost!
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Subject: The departure that turned out to be a real boost!
Date Posted: July 03 2007 at 18:57
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Hello fellow progheads.
How nice and skillfull some musicians were, their departure led to a huge improvement of the band. I am curious to your opinion which musician was missed not at all because his departure turned out to be a real boost to the band!
My vote goes drummer John Rutsey, his successor
Neil Peart needs no introduction
 ! |
Replies:
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 03 2007 at 19:11
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Rick Wakeman leaving Yes produced Relayer - their finest album.
I cannot agree with any of your choices though, except maybe Anthony Phillips leaving Genesis (but a Genesis with Ant and Steve would have been cool!) ------------- What? |
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: July 03 2007 at 19:11
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Like your choices but I'm just here to add.
Dominici leaving dream theater for LaBrie. Kevin Moore leaving was a heartbreaker. Sherinian too.... |
Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 03 2007 at 19:16
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Personally, I think Hogarth is exactly what the boys in Marillion needed; however. Rutsey leaving Rush and ushering in Peart really changed the sound of that band. I went with Rutsey leaving Rush.
E ------------- 
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Posted By: rushaholic
Date Posted: July 03 2007 at 19:39
| Got to be Rutsey leaving and the arrival of Peart. |
Posted By: Soul Dreamer
Date Posted: July 03 2007 at 20:21
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Not in the list, but Peter Banks leaving Yes after Time and a Word, and Steve Howe entering, must be the biggest boost any band ever had. ------------- To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica) |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: July 03 2007 at 21:07
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John Rutsey leaving Rush is the obvious choice. Without that happening, the drumming and lyrical genius that is Neil Peart would either be unknown or a part of some other band. One that strikes me as being left off is John Mayhew getting the boot from Genesis, not to mention Chris Stewart and John Silver leaving, which paved the way for Phil Collins. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 03 2007 at 21:25
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There are two bigger:
Dominici leaves Dream Theater...
Mick Pointer leaves Marillion....
Those two were real boosts...
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Posted By: DaysEnd
Date Posted: July 03 2007 at 21:53
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Have to agree with Soul Dreamer; Peter Banks leaving Yes was the first, and bigger, step in forming their classic sound. Steve Howe layered on many interesting sounds in their earlier music. Yours Is No Disgrace could never have been done by anyone but Howe. ------------- All the old familiar choruses come crowding in a different key: Melodies decaying in sweet dissonance. |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: July 03 2007 at 23:29
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Phillips was good, but it is really not fair to stand him up to Hackett ------------- 
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Posted By: DethMaiden
Date Posted: July 03 2007 at 23:36
| Rutsey leaving Rush...but that's so unfair to Rutsey since Peart is God. |
Posted By: Arsillus
Date Posted: July 03 2007 at 23:37
| Since it was predestined for Neil Peart to join Rush, I'll pick the next best one, Peter Banks leaving Yes. |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: July 03 2007 at 23:50
Phillips wrote a couple of great songs with Genesis too, in his short tenure (Visions of Angels and Dusk). And I love Phillips solo work too. One has to wonder how Genesis would have evolved had Phillips never left. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
schizoid_man77 wrote:Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 03:40
That is an interesting thought, Dargdean, but since no one has voted for the following, let me have a go at it: "Eno leaving Roxy Music produced STRANDED - their finest album, which is blessed with Eddie Jobson's superior keyboard playing." 
Oh I KNOW I'm supposed to admire Eno's experiments on the B-side of FOR YOUR PLEASURE, and I do admire them, but Jobson's a far better instrumentalist than Eno, and STRANDED's the first Roxy album without a single weak or boring track. Moreover, Eno's leaving gave him the opportunity to start all sorts of fascinating collaborations with Fripp and Cluster, after which he started working with Bowie and the Talking Heads, and rock music hasn't been the same since. Without exaggeration we can say Eno's departure was of historic significance. 
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Posted By: Visitor13
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 03:42
| It's not about one person leaving, it's about another person joining. |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 03:50
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Mick Abrahams, from the Tull.
And whoever let Bruford into Crimso. ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: The Whistler
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 03:52
Uh, Ritchie Blackmore? ------------- "There seem to be quite a large percentage of young American boys out there tonight. A long way from home, eh? Well so are we... Gotta stick together." -I. Anderson |
Posted By: iguana
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 04:13
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VERY good poll! kudos.
VERY close draw between rutsey leaving rush and – in retrospect – fish leaving marillion. ------------- progressive rock and rural tranquility don't match. true or false? |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 04:24
Interesting posts  , especially the mentioning of Peter Banks, as a huge Steve Howe and Seventies Yes fan I should have included this one too 
And although I don't like post-Hackett era Genesis, I have to admit that the Collins-trio did very well but more in a commercial way, not artistically in my opinion
 And Rick Wakeman leaving Yes .. quite provocative to call the 'Patrick Moraz one-shot Yes line-up album Relayer' their best effort, Mr. Dargdean
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 04:46
Agreed. However, Ant did go on to study classical guitar after leaving Genesis, which must have aided the quality of his solo work.
ps: It's darQ with a "Q", pronounced dark ------------- What? |
Posted By: Norbert
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 05:00
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For me the biggest boost were:
Howe for Banks
Wakeman for Kaye
Peart for Rutsey.
From the list I consider the Rush line up change the most important.
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 05:05
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Haha Norbert, this is not the poll I created two years ago ("the best replacement in a progrock band") but thanks for your vote from Hungary
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 05:07
I was thinking on similar lines - but I also believe Peter Banks set out to demonstrate with Flash he was as good as Howe. Whether he did or didn't.... maybe is reflected in how long Flash lasted. However, Banks certainly demonstrated an impressive bag of licks both on albums (including the early Yes) and also in live performance with Flash. I wonder how much Banks was checking out Howe in Bodast before the change? ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 05:09
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It is a pity this poll doesn't have the choice running from 0 ('I completely agree') to 9 ('I totally disagree'), since one or two of those changes I think were retrograde steps and others I'm less sure about. ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 06:45
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Well Dick, no problem if you create an own poll as a successor to this one, perhaps with the new title "the best replacement in a progrock band" !
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Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 07:48
More a plea for a local polling system with greater flexiblity ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: BDTF
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 08:16
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Dominici leaving DT ------------- BDTF - Belgian Dream Theater Fan |
Posted By: BDTF
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 08:16
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Dominici leaving DT ------------- BDTF - Belgian Dream Theater Fan |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 08:21
Oh I don't know, Relayer is generally recognised as being one of their best. However, I have read that much of the music was written before Moraz came on board.
And can I just mention Pete Best?
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 08:45
only if I can mention Stuart Sutcliffe.
(I also read that about Relayer - it's still my favorite Yes album though) ------------- What? |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 08:57
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Chopper, that's absolutely brilliant: Pete Best (although it's not prog and I don't like The Beatles) Darqdean and Chopper, about Relayer: my personal opinion, it is in my Yes All Time Albums Top 3 and I love that 1975 QPR stadium concert DVD Dick: let's hope mailto:M@X - M@X will read this poll, I agree with your idea about a more flexible polling system, that also would be (even) more inviting to post |
.Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 08:59
Pete Best of the Beatles? ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 09:05
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Would Rush be what they are without Peart?
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 09:11
Hard to say, but I really doubt it. A lesser drummer would've made them sound like your basic power trio. Peart came in and instantly made Lifeson and Lee better musicians, in my opinion. E -------------
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 09:16
I think that was a rhetorical question about Rush by StyLaZen, E-Dub .. and an understatement could be "Rush have not done badly after Neil Peart joined the band" 
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Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 09:20
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John Rutsey leaves Rush, obiouvsly!!!
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 09:27
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Not "Antonio Pagliuca leaves Le Orme", Mandrakeroot ?
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Posted By: Mandrakeroot
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 09:35
No, because these line up is at the same level of the precedent. And, non only my opinion, Michele Bon is the new (but in truth it outclasses) Keith Emerson. Well... In " (brandeburger) Concerto N° 3" of Bach [The Nice recorded N° 6] Michele Bon is 1.000.000 times better!!! -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 11:39
Aaahhh, I see. 
E -------------
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Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 11:41
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Rutsey's departure from Rush is as important as Pete Best's departure from the Beatles.
------------- "One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 14:26
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I know this thread is about 100% prog bands, so sorry to enter a related metal name, but believe me, you have no idea how much Paul D'Anno's leaving helped The Beast.... much more than many of these changes (except Dominici and DT and Peart and Rush)
If we band was doing good music before, then any change isn't that dramatical (Moraz) -------------
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 14:36
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I guess I´ll go with Tony Kaye... but it would have been a good choice to out the whole 69-71 line ups from King Crimson, cause without them leaving, getting fired and so on, we would have had the 72-74 line ups!!!! ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
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Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 14:37
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I guess I´ll go with Tony Kaye... but it would have been a good choice to out the whole 69-71 line ups from King Crimson, cause without them leaving, getting fired and so on, we would have had the 72-74 line ups!!!! ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?"
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 15:09
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"I repeat myself when I am under stress, I repeat myself when I am under stress".... also King Crimson
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Posted By: bruin69
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 16:45
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For me, definitely Peter Banks leaving Yes. Howe's adventurous playing was the key factor in making Yes the influential group it became. Also, I agree (naturally) that Relayer was their best album ------------- A dog is for lunch and not just for breakfast |
Posted By: BroSpence
Date Posted: July 04 2007 at 18:21
| Tony Kaye leaving Yes allowed him to do Badger and Flash! |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 09:32
Yes it was rhetorical, however, among Rush fans, this concept has been a spark to some interesting hypotheses. One thing that is for sure, Geddy and Alex are the best of friends and have been for many years. Rush would have continued because of this friendship.
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 09:48
I love that line!!!!!
I created a wave file in Windoze and replaced the error sound with it.
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 11:11
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Well, StyLaZyn, for sure Adrian Belew was a boost for the Eighties new King Crimson line-up, I knew him from his work with David Bowie
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Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 15:51
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With many of the above choices it seems to me that the bands improved not by loosing members, but rather by gaining their replacements. For example, Yes got a definite boost from acquiring Wakeman (the first time), but the departure of Kaye was not the reason, except that it made room for Rick. Likewise, Ricks subsequent departure was only beneficial in so much that it gave rise to the brilliant Relayer, but who knows what that album would have sounded like had he not made way for Moraz? That said, thank God for Wakeman's return for Yes's best ever individual song, "Awaken" . As for Peter Gabriel's departure being a boost for Genesis, ATOTT is a great album, but that's just down to Newtons law of conservation of momentum. Collins soon fcuked it up after Hackett left. ------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 15:53
I'll hold this guy down, who wants to club him. -------------
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Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 15:59
  ------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 16:12
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ps, Do you really think you'll find many folk on this site who think Gabriel's departure was a good thing? If there's any clubbing to be done, I'd be carefull defending Collins if I were you ------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 16:21
First off, it was a group effort. Phil didn't pull a Roger Waters on the band. If you want to "blame" Collins for this, I think that is less than accurate. You'd have to blame all three, afterall, they remained and contributed.
If the material was so bad, why was it such a huge commercial success, as opposed to early Genesis? Your opinion is countered by quite a few.
To tell Phil to shutup and get behind the drums is just plain wrong, especially seeing the success he had outside the band as a soloist and producer.
And not to lessen Gabriel, but comparatively, Collins far exceeded Gabriel's accomplishments. And Hackett's surely pales next to it.
-------------
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Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 16:22
Collins was not the only one responsible for Genesis' "Downfall". Remember that Banks and Rutherford still wrote songs, probably more than Collins did...
It's ok not to like Post-Hackett Genesis, it's just that the Collins bashing gets tiresome after a while. I for one enjoy every Genesis album (probably due to the fact that I discovered Genesis with Mama when I was a kid, but that's another story) even though it's pop... but it was high quality pop, better than most of what was done at the time. And they also still kept some prog elements in those pop albums (Dodo/Lurker, Duke's Travels, Duke's End, Home By the Sea, Domino, The Brazilian, Driving the Last Spike and Fading Lights which are both among my favorite Genesis songs...).
I don't consider what Genesis turned into heresy ; I would call it evolution, survival of the fittest.
Wether you like their evolution or not is entirely up to you though. ------------- "One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 16:24
Melo...you are scaring me. We think alike.
Rush rules! -------------
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Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 16:26
Weird indeed, we wrote approximately the same thing at the same time !!!
------------- "One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio |
Posted By: Proletariat
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 16:28
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how about Roxy Music leaves Eno, that would be the best departure, but it is listed backwards ------------- who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob |
Posted By: Yanns
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 16:30
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I go with Kaye leaving Yes. I love the Yes Album a ridiculous amount, so my other choice was Banks leaving, but I do think with Wakeman, the music would not have sounded as majestic.
But, Howe is just important. I could basically cast my vote for Banks and Kaye leaving.
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 16:44
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Yanns is back, welcome
After creating this thread, I had nightmares about progheads that were euphoric about Hackett leaving the band, his departure was a real commercial boost to Genesis because Phil Collins took full control and was hailed very soon by millions of non-prog fans, very glad with the 'we can dance on Genesis songs'
 |
Posted By: Komodo dragon
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 17:17
^ oooouch we can dance on Genesis songs never triedWho's departure turned out to be a real boost for the band? Syd Barrett leaves Pink Floyd ------------- 
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Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: July 05 2007 at 23:56
In interviews Collins has, on numerous occasions, disowned Genesis's prog past, derided the genre as a whole and in so doing insulted it's followers of which I am one. That makes him fair game for a "bashing" in my book. I don't know about you, but I'm proud to be Prog.
------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: Dim
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 00:01
Three clappies for Emidar!
 -------------
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 05:52
I remember that Phil Collins was very degrading about symphonic prog in the late Seventies: in several interviews he said "Pink Floyd is boring" and "I don't like that old sh*t"  Fortunately Hackett solo was a boost for symphonic prog !
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 08:42
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Sorry, but you can't argue with success. These guys are in the business to make money of music. They succeeded overwhelmingly.
Surprising how Gabriel doesn't get hammered for selling out. Example: Sledgehammer and the HUGE MTV sellout. He denies his Prog past and yet he still doesn't get slammed here. Get real folks and don't just see what you want to see.
Its quite obvious to me that the real talent comes from those who know how to write music that appeals to the masses. Like it or not, that is how it is. 95+% of Prog bands fail in becoming huge money makers like Genesis did by changing, or should we say progressing. It appears that stagnant Progressiveness doesn't pay off. Moving forward does.
So in our little worlds of opinion, the Gabriel's and Colliin's could care less about what we think. Their bottom line is all that matters.
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 08:50
You are ignoring the point. You can't just bash Collins. You'd have to bash all three. Looks like Rutherford had some commercial success with Mike and the Mechanics. Why not let it rip on him?
Collins gets the short end of the stick around here because some refuse to acknowledge his brilliance.
 -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 09:10
Rich, you're fighting a losing battle, my brother. I totally agree with you on this and I've used the exact same arguements; however, people always want a scapegoat and this makes Collins an easy target. Had Collins remained behind the drums, Genesis found a new frontman altogether, but still chose the same path, then the new lead singer would be verbally stoned by the prog faithful. Additionally, I think it's unfair to assume that Rich isn't proud to be prog simply because he's looking at it from a different point of view than yours. To discount Rutherford and Banks from the path that Genesis took is a case of short sightedness. E -------------
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 10:26
You are so right, E. Thanks for the back up. Five clappies for you!
These lyrics come to mind.
"All puffed up with vanity,
We see what we want to see.
To the beautiful and the wise,
The mirror always lies."
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 10:50
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Not a problem, Rich. Just tired of the same old tired arguements. People tend to forget that they didn't market themselves as Phil Collins and Genesis, or Genesis featuring Phil Collins.
E -------------
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 10:56
| Wow, Rutsey leaves Rush has no competition. Kaye leaving yes is the only other one I might vote for, but it's no question. Peart's lyrical and instrumental brilliance made that band. |
Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 10:58
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As far as I know, Banks and Rutherford have not sl*gged prog off, and therefore I will leave them alone. Collins is a sad little t**ser who deserves all the derision he gets. As for selling loads of albums and making loads of money, what in God's name has that got to do with anything? If that makes him a great prog star then I suggest we include Justin Timberlake in the archives. ------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:05
I've come to the conclusion that your comments are made only to raise the ire of those who have the capacity to appreciate true talent. No one can be this closed minded.
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:06
Simply addressing the first part, it's quite obvious that Mike + The Mechanics' albums never made it to the Netherlands. 
E -------------
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Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:10
I've come to discover that most prog purists are really closed-minded. Like I previously said (in another thread, a while ago), purists will never care for an album if it doesn't sound like Close to the Edge, Foxtrot, Thick as a Brick or any classic you can think of, and they have the right to. They're the ones missing out in the end ! ------------- "One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:13
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Banks and Rutherford are every bit as responsible. They made no move to hire a new guitarist, and they wrote much of the insipid material of the post-Hackett era. Sure, Collins has a share of the blame, but it's just that, a SHARE. |
Posted By: kazansky
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:14
you make prog sounds like some sort of occult that it's follower (the artists and fans) should remain loyal till their death  
seriously, what's really wrong with someone doing what they like ? even if we didn't like their works we should at least respect their rights to do so, unless they do some crime or such... ------------- The devil we blame our atrocities on is really just each one of us. |
Posted By: Melomaniac
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:17
You have seen the light.
The thing is people bash on Collins because he was so succesful in his solo career and they tend to blend Genesis/Collins' solo career together. To the best of my knowledge, Collins never recorded songs like Domino, The Brazilian, Home By the Sea, Driving the Last Spike or Fading Lights on ANY of his solo album.
Bottom line is, if people really hate late Genesis, I'm ok with that, just leave us more open-minded folks appreciate it without bashing us in the process. This place would be ever more peaceful. ------------- "One likes to believe in the freedom of Music" - Neil Peart, The Spirit of Radio |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:28
All of those songs are fine examples of Progressive music in the Genesis Trio years. But since Gabriel and Hackett played no part, they will forever be banished to the realms of the Prog Purist Gehenna.
That Prog Purist attitude really puts a negative taint on listeners I would happily conclude as intelligent. I guess I'm beating a dead horse, as others of you have.
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Posted By: StarBreaker
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:29
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John Rutsey leaves Rush The other ones aren't even options in this case. |
Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:30
| ^ yeah that's what i said |
Posted By: paolo.beenees
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:33
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In Italian "campanilista" is a person who thinks and talks as if his own land (or even his own town) were the centre of the universe. That's one of my several defects, so I'll talk about Italy, of course. The departure of Nino Smeraldi (guitar) and Claudio Galieti (bass) left Le Orme as a trio. Tagliapietra became the main composer, while Tony Pagliuca turned out to be a very fine lyricist. But, apart from that, the band had to find a new identity, left the psychedelic/beat sound of "Ad Gloriam" behind its shoulders and turned into the symph-prog power trio that we all know. ------------- 
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Posted By: 1800iareyay
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:33
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Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:35
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I am not at all a "prog purist". My tastes are extremely eclectic, and I dare say as broad if not broader than a lot of people's on this site. Your hero Collins happens to be a brilliant drummer and a highly talented song writer, HOWEVER, he spits in the faces of the people who brought him his success by calling prog "boring old sh*t"! I He'd love to distance himself from us, the people who put him where he is today, by disowning his past and in so doing trying to court favour with the middle of the road majority who spend millions on bland pop music. It seems someone CAN be that narrow minded, and that person is Phil Collins.
Rutherford and Banks could release an R'n'B album and I'd still respect them. I wouldn't buy it, but I'd respect their right to do it. You just can't accept that my (and very many prog fan's) grievances are legitimate because it would pain you to admit that Collins is laughing at you all the way to the bank. ------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:38
I like a lot of later Genesis stuff, but never cared much for IT or WCD, with the exception of the songs you mentioned above. But IT and WCD were group efforts, and all three are responsible for the quality or lack-thereof of both of those albums. In fact, it was actually Collins who wrote the lyrics to Driving the Last Spike, so he had a hand in one of the more epic tracks off of WCD. IT and WCD don't get many spins in my cd player, unlike most of the rest of the Genesis catalogue, but I see no reason to bash them or Phil in particular for those two albums. Just don't listen to them if you don't like them. I'm grateful that Phil was around to help keep the band alive after the loss of PG, allowing them to give us many more years of great music. So what if they put out a clunker or two. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:40
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Rock on, emdiar. =)
------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:49
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Phil Collins, Musical Express interview 1990:
"On a generous day I'll blame me for the change, but I just think it is us growing up, listening to different things. We were always a group of songwriters who would write three-, 10- and 20-minute songs. We still write 10-minute songs, like Last Domino, but, unfortunately, the three-minute songs have gotten better and become hits. I don't feel we've b*****dized the way we were, as we still work the same way. Diehard fans will say, 'Rubbish. Carpet Crawlers, I Know What I Like - that was progressive!' But I don't see that. We'd have killed for hit singles back in the early days."
Collins is undoubtedly the most visible and popular member of Genesis, but he stresses he is "just an equal member - I don't dominate Genesis, it's just that since Duke [1980], I've become an equal third. To those that wish I'd go back to being subservient to Mike and Tony, well, we're all changing. I answer those fans by saying: 'Do you still wear bellbottoms, read the same books, like the same kind of girls? Of course not. Well, we don't like the same kind of music. Allow us to change." ------------- What? |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:51
First off, I'd like to see the reference Collins made about Prog and see the context surrounding this statement.
You talk like Collins had no choice. He could have left the band and kept his solo career. He may have made more money of his solo career so it isn't like he needed Genesis.
We can't accept close-mindedness. And if Collins profitting off us was a problem, we wouldn't partake in buying the albums/DVDs/etc of Genesis trio material. Wait a minute? Don't all musicians make music to profitt? You speak like there is something wrong in this.
I don't see the grievance as legit. It is elitist separatism plain and simple.
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 11:56
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Fine words about Le Orme, I remember being a fan of the trio and then I heard the pop-psychedelic sound of the first line-up, not really my cup of tea.
About Genesis, this kind of discussions appear in every thread and I am guilty too because I am so frustrated about the poppy sound of The Collins Trio that I start to participate again and again. For example, last week I witnessed the DVD Genesis Live In London 1980, great track list, the instrumentals parts are performed very well but that voice of Phil, so harsh and on stage he acts like a child who is allowed to do his tricks in order to get attention, what a contrast with the magical performances by Peter Gabriel
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Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 12:24
Where do I say making a profit is wrong? Making a profit and then cynically insulting those whose money you have taken, THAT'S what pisses me off. Nothing else.
Just one more time for clarity, cus you guys seem caught up on the "It wasn't all Phil's fault" argument, I don't give a flying fcuk if Phil or anyone else dedicates the rest of their carrier to recording their own farts, but as soon as they try to make out their prog history was just some big mistake, because fashion dictates that they disassociate themselves from it and their former fans, than I lose all respect for them. Rutherford, Banks, Gabriel, Jon Anderson, Wakeman, Bruford, even Steve Hillage, who has taken to making house music, none have dissed their back catalogue like Collins has.
As a drummer, singer and song smith, respect is due. As a person I have no respect for him at all. ------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 12:31
I bet his divorce lawyer is a big fan though
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Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 12:33
Jongen, I couldn't agree more.------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 12:39
. I can imagine how he talks about his ex-wives. "Yeah, I never really loved her, you know, it's just the way thing were at the time, people change you know, the marriage was boring sh*t....etc."------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: emdiar
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 12:55
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And before anyone starts, Wakeman dissed TFTO from day one, and not as an after thought, and certainly didn't bring other bands into the equation, like Phil dissing the Floyd! ------------- Perception is truth, ergo opinion is fact. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 13:01
So did you find that Collins quote reference? -------------
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Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 13:14
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Just because Collins was with a progressive rock band does not mean that he must love progressive rock as much as we do. If he thinks it's boring that's his right. Note that he said absolutely nothing derogatory about progressive music fans. All he said was basically that he finds prog boring. I've had friends and girlfriends who felt the same way. Collins being a part of prog history does not obligate him to be a fan. Nor is he obligated to keep his opinion of music to himself. Just as I have the right to say that I find some of Collins' solo work to be boring. And a couple of later Genesis albums. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 13:30
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When politicians are caught doing stupid things, they should start talking about Phil Collins... it's such a great way to drive conversations completely out of topic.... -------------
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 13:32
Holy crap. No kiddin'. -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 13:47
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Rich, better not let Garten catch you listening to Pallas or else this little tug of war you're having with Emdiar will seem like a tickle fight!!!
Myself, I love that Pallas disc!!! E iTunes: "Rope Ends" from Pain Of Salvation's Remedy Lane -------------
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Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 13:54
Well wait until it updates again. Woohoo, the sparks will fly then!!!! Prog Elitists beware!!! Classic non-Prog might just irritate you.
"The Last Angel" is a great cut off The Dreams of Men
Remedy Lane...I need to find it and cue it up! -------------
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Posted By: E-Dub
Date Posted: July 06 2007 at 13:57
I thought it surpassed The Cross & The Crucible by leaps and bounds. "The Last Angel" is probably my favorite. "Warriors" is pretty powerful, too. Brings back 9/11 memories, though. Remedy Lane is simply hitting the spot right now. Sorry to get off topic. E -------------
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