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erik neuteboom 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: July 27 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 7659 |
 Topic: Does the recent PA policy harm the genuinPosted: July 27 2007 at 18:08 |
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Hello fellow progheads.
Early 2004 I joined Prog Archives, I started to write biographies and then reviews and in the end I joined the Forum. Because that's the place where all discussions start, I want to tell you about this more and more mounting frustration. When I decided to work for Prog Archives, I considered myself as a kind of progrock missionary who wanted to tell everybody about the 'Progrock Truth'. Gradually I noticed that this site hosted more and more bands that you can describe as 'not basically progrock oriented', to start with The Beatles, then Led Zeppelin, The Doors, Jefferson Airplane, Iron Maiden, JM Jarre, Santana and recently The Who. Some ended in the category Proto-prog but in fact you can say that most bands are way from those bands that were on Prog Archives early 2004. I have to admit that I love most aforementioned bands but my point of concern is that the focus is no longer on progressive rock but also very much on prog music, prog-related music and progressive pop. When you enter Prog Archives at this moment, it's another world if you compare it to entering Prog Archives early 2004. Instead of trying to focus on supporting the interesting lesser and unknown progrock bands, the Prog Archives homepage anno 2007 delivers mainly reviews about known and legendary progrock bands and lots of prog music, prog-related and progressive pop bands. Prog Archives is still a huge source of progrock bands but I am afraid that the recent PA band addition policy will lead to an archive that will host more non-prog bands than interesting lesser and unknown progrock bands and I am very concerned about that. I am looking forward to your opinion and I would like to emphasize that this thread is meant as a constructive attempt to clear things! So what's your opinion about my story? Edited by erik neuteboom - July 27 2007 at 18:16 |
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 29 2005 Location: hell Status: Offline Points: 28427 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 18:17 |
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Yes it does.
It's ironic how some collabs go add Maiden, Doors or The Who thus condemning discussions and promotion of obscurer prog bands to death in the near future, and then complain how everyone's discussing the controversial additions  Regarding the idea that these bands will come up in searches and perhaps convert some people to prog, I have a better suggestion. How about Max changes the title of the front page(the one that appears on top of your browser window) from "prog rock ultimate discography with mp3 and reviews" to "Paris Hilton, Myspace, Harry Potter, Lindsay Lohan, Britney Spears, George Bush" and watch the traffic skyrocket... and overall we'll have more prog converts than all these bands bring together  |
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 7659 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 18:27 |
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Well The Miracle, I understand your point, it's not easy to understand why Erik Neuteboom created this thread while he added The Doors..
 That's true but "everybody is allowed to act crazy" without losing his identity, OK?About your post, the cynical overtones are hilarious, I hope it will move M@X towards some action, his biography picture (a happy and smiling M@X like Steve Hackett on the album Cured) points at preferring a status quo  Edited by erik neuteboom - July 27 2007 at 18:43 |
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The Miracle
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 29 2005 Location: hell Status: Offline Points: 28427 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 18:42 |
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I just think that it's best to concentrate on prog rather than worry about borderline bands. Every time a new prog-related band is added, we set the limit a little further, making it a bit hypocritical that some others aren't here. The argument "Y is 1000 times more prog than X, why aren't they here" aren't entirely useless(if correct). For example, one could argue that Black Sabbath had as much influence or significance as The Who, or that Hendrix had as many prog elements as the Doors, but even more influence. Our prog metal specialists believe that Metallica had two fully prog albums which logically should warrant inclusion since the same thing(2 proggy albums) got Blind Guardian in. There's plenty of bands pot there that could be proven more prog/more influential than some of our prog-related additions, but do they really belong here? No way!
 If by status quo you mean just stopping with prog related additions now, that's a great idea  |
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1800iareyay
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2492 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 18:50 |
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We don't need to stop allowing prog related bands, but we do need to curb the rampant discussions over "yes they do belong here" or "I'll add then band when Lucifer buys a fur coat." It should all be placed into one thread in the prog related forum. I know that thread will probably collapse, but it'll serve as a lesson.
It doesn't help that we collabs as a whole don't promote lesser known stuff. I admit I'm ill equipped because I'm just know getting into the obscure. Peopel like Erik, Rico, and Hugues would be great for recommendations, as I've already gotten some great new bands to listen to from erik's posts. Pr isn't the problem, flame wars are and admins need to come down a little harder on the PR discussions.
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: October 19 2006 Location: ibreathehelium Status: Offline Points: 15535 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 18:51 |
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If we stopped adding bands to prog-related and proto-prog then we would be able to concentrate on some of the lesser known prog bands on this website and maybe add a few more obscure bands, but discuss it in the forum instead of just adding the band.
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 7659 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 18:55 |
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Thanks for posting
The Miracle, you are right about pushing the limits every time a little bit further with prog-related bands but it remains subjective because in my opinion The Doors are part of progrock history and to others The Who or The Jimi Hendrix Experience are. So who decides? In my opinion the problem is that M@X wanted The Beatles and then the floodgates were opened, now we don't have good reasons to stop it because Iron Maiden, JM Jarre and Osibisa are on this site, who has good objections to stop The Jimi Hendrix Experience, Cream, The Stranglers and The Tubes ...? Edited by erik neuteboom - July 27 2007 at 18:58 |
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Raff
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24439 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 19:16 |
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I find it really quite ironic to see a thread like this opened by someone who added some of the most controversial acts so far. Why don't we try to be honest for once, and say that only what WE think is prog should be added? Erik obviously doesn't think Maiden or Osibisa are prog, while he thinks The Doors, Jimi Hendrix, The Stranglers and such are - however, there are other forum members whose opinion is just the opposite. So, where does that leave us?
Personally, I think the whole PP/PR question is being used as a convenient scapegoat to cover up a multitude of other sins. Just look at the most recent active topics on the forum's home page: is it PP/PR's fault if all you can see are posts relating to games or the Velvet Room? Or if threads/polls about more obscure acts quickly fall into oblivion? Could it have to do, for instance, with the fact prog CDs are not exactly widely available, unless they are by the best-known acts? Or that many people have run out of ideas as to the contents of new threads? BTW, perhaps none of you noticed that yesterday I started a thread in this same section which addressed the same concerns. It would've been nice if the people who posted in this thread had made some comments in mine too, but I think I should've learnt the lesson by now. |
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progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006 Location: ibreathehelium Status: Offline Points: 15535 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 19:24 |
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Sorry for not posting in your thread Raff but I didn't want to repeat what had already been said about 20 times.
As to your questions it is probably all 3 are true. Though we do discuss obscure stuff occasionally in the VR. Obscurities fall into oblivion because they are obscure, once they become well-known and popular people will star complaining of an over emphasis on that band. And the fact that CDs aren't widely available does have something to do with it. There needs to be a delicate balance but we all have our opinions on how things should be weighed, so the balance will always be off for some people. |
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cuncuna
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2005 Location: Chile Status: Offline Points: 4318 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 19:27 |
I take what I need from this siet, as everyone else. My personal definition of prog is received here as much as everyone else's; there's plenty of info for everyone, and the definition of any concept changes with time (and some other coordinates). Besides, we are in 2007, this is just a website and nobody is going to die because the name "Iron Maiden" is written here in html text. Now, about Bowie... 
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¡Beware of the Bee!
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 38742 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 19:51 |
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As a non-staff member, the Prog-Related and Proto-Prog categories don't bother me at all. I largely ignore them when searching the archives, preferring to search other categories. I'm not a missionary here (though I'd like to play some small in progelitising the masses), I usually learn about Prog music from others here (through the bio-pages), rather than making "first-hand" discoveries or making suggestions for inclusion. Okay, I do want Cream here under Proto-Prog, and I don't even listen to the band anymore.
For me, tis site has not lost enough integrity through controversial inclusions to make it a less-than-valuable resource. I don't agree with some of it, but that's fine. I expect that a lot of what I like listed under the Prog categories here, while progressive music, would not be considered suitable by a Prog purist. Like I said in another thread, due to personal bias, I'd like to see more progressive music here that is not, or hardly, on the rock side (especially in Avant Prog). Stuff like ZNR that is suitable, I think. Some Prog-Related, and Proto, I consider sufficiently Prog for Prog categories. As long as groups are well-grouped, it doesn't bother me. However, it would be better if so many people did not concentrate in writing reviews for non-Prog albums (I include albums by bands that were Prog at one time, but changed direction) and less time was spent on writing non-Prog category bios and more on Prog ones. Of course some reviews are necessary to alert one when an album is not progressive (talking when a Prog band releases a pop album, for instance). Prog-related and Proto-Prog can certainly cover a HUGE number of bands, and it's nigh impossible to really say where one should really draw the line. I've half-wondered if there should be a Related to Prog Related category, a Related to Related to Prog Related Category, and a Kind of Proggy, Maybe category. And how about a Proto Proto-Prog and Proto Prog Related category? Or just a "Music that Progheads might like" category. Hehe. Oh, I was going to make a point, but it seems my rambling has limited my time. I agree with those that say that PP and PR should be left off the main most popular list. As for the forums, I like less the huge amount of discussion about non-music topics, than non-prog music topics. See active list at some times (I'm not suggesting non-prog forum discussions be excluded from the list, but I'm sure it can diminish discussion for those coming here to discuss, or chat about, progressive music). I would like to see suggested inclusions discussed in the forums (also a way of getting people to know the music), and provide mp3 samples if possible, since a piece of music is worth far more than words alone. Start topics on Prog bands you enjoy -- even if it doesn't get much discussion, at least people will hear the names (maybe later they'll buy the albums -- especially if links to music samples are included if possible). And we should encourage open discussion of bands and albums (as open as possible). Nothing wrong if someone says they don't like something -- matter of taste. In fact if there's criticism as well as praise, it makes for a better thread, generally, I think. I think the negative reactions (well anger particularly) towards others negative reactions towards certain music is not constructive. I want to know what people like and don't like. Anyway, I see your problem, and sorry for digressing badly. Have to leave it without properly addressing YOUR concerns, since I have to go out. PS Controversy isn't bad necessarily... A controversial addition generates debate and energizes the board. Some people just have to learn not to take such things personally, As you work for the site, you have the right to take more things personally than I do, in my opinion. I wouldn't want to volunteer for a place where I really disliked the policies/ practices, and felt that I had no say in changing those policies that really bothered me. |
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Watching while most appreciating a sunset in the moment need not diminish all the glorious sunsets I have observed before. It can be much like that with music for me.
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andu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2006 Location: Romania Status: Offline Points: 3089 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 20:35 |
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Prog is still new for me, after about two years since stumbling into
it, so I remain a rocker at heart. My "expertise" is on classic 70s and
late 60s rock, and on 90s pop-rock (I was the avid teenager then). So,
looking through the eyes of the neophyte that I am, I can tell you Erik
that this site and these forums are exactly what they should be. Most
of the bands (and their music) that are discussed here are unknown to
me, and most of these discussions are really helpful. You may not have
this impression, because you've been acquainted for a lifetime already
with the major acts and you are digging into the darkest vaults of
prog-world. But for a newbie, this is a place to be.
As most of the names and titles mentioned around are unknown to me, they force me into expanding my horizons. I guess you can't really evaluate the effects of your efforts, but I can tell you it's all happening because of the enthusiasm of you and all the great people from here. (The fact that the community is great here guarantees that this will remain the best place for passing/exchanging knowledge on prog on the web.) Let me give you an example. By winter, I had never listened to any Symphonic band listed here (can you imagine that?!) - I had only tried once with YES and Genesis, but failed miserably to understand/like. Then something happened - you brought something to me attention, namely the music of Yesterdays. I got in touch with the band, got the album, listened to it and loved it. Then I promised the band I would secure them the addition to the site, but I had nothing of the needed knowledge & background, so I started following the link of reviews, recommendations, tops, etc, and my tastes changed. I found YES and Genesis again and this time I was astounded by the beauty they produced - then went on further to discover PFM, Steve Hackett, Harmonium, then Bacamarte, Solaris and After Crying, recently Anglagard, Spock's Beard, Camel, Outer Limits, local bands Accent and Kogaion, etc... Could this be possible without the PA working as it should? I guess not. And all this happened exactly in the period which saw The Doors, Led Zeppelin, Iron Maiden, The Who, etc. "flooded" the site. Let's stop worrying about them... By the way, as I said at the begining, my background is non-prog; I always check the Proto&Related sub-forum during my daily visits on the forum because I feel there's where I can contribute with more substance, but there are usually only four or five new posts from one day to the other... Where exactly is that "flood" of non-prog?  (One more thing. The submission for Yesterdays is running towards completion; it's only a matter of time, just that it's linked now with another bands that I discovered in the meantime. You'll have a nice surprise.) |
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moodyxadi
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 01 2005 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 417 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 20:38 |
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That's what I've said: ABBA and Grand Funk, now! Get out, Magma, Popol Vuh and their weird music!
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Bach, Ma, Bros, Déia, Dante.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65844 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 20:57 |
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great post, andu.. honest, convincing, and quite right
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andu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2006 Location: Romania Status: Offline Points: 3089 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 21:02 |
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Thanks, dude... I feel relieved now, as approved by the n00bs
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65844 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 21:07 |
 
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 21:07 |
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Firstly, in Proto-prog we are talking about 27 out of over 2,900 bands on the archive; Prog Related (which I think has a few additions that are 100% Prog anyway) has 134. Judging by the arguments and objections I have read over the past 2 months the real sticking point for many is probably no more than 10 of these additions. 10 out of 2,900 - if these bands are a threat to the integrity of the PA then Prog music is in a worse state now than it ever was in the late 70's. Truth is they are not and the people arriving at the PA Home-page are smart enough to realise that The Who and Led Zepplin aren't the greatest prog bands in the world (especially if they arrived clutching their favorite Mars Volta album and were looking for similar music
) but they will discover here that these bands were important to the development of Prog.
Unlike Andu, I am not new to prog - it grew up with me in the 70's and we have continued to grow together. I bought DSotM on the day it was released and I bought FoaBP on the day it was released too with almost as much anticipation and enthusiasm - so I arrived here with 35 years of prog experience and knowledge burried in my head. Yet I find things here I've never heard of and I learn things I didn't know - it is still a great resource for the obscure and the underrated.
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What?
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46843 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 21:08 |
hell yeah... couldn't agree more. Great post Andu.... |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46843 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 21:11 |
yes...IMO there are 100% prog bands/artists in PR... and I have my sights set when I return to full time genre-team work... to get them out of there. Peter Gabriel is first on my list to get out of there... not a fan... but you don't have to be. Edited by micky - July 27 2007 at 21:12 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: October 21 2005 Location: Terra Brasilis Status: Offline Points: 12291 |
Posted: July 27 2007 at 21:12 |
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I tink that dargdean and I are antipodes since we experienced things at the same time (less than 6 months older than him) and we think very similarly.
BTW, I bought DSOTM in the very first day it hit the stores here.
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Guigo
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Does the recent PA policy harm the genuin
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erik neuteboom wrote: