Israel/Gaza: Calling all UK forum members.

^^^ Ironically, Hamas were democratically elected to power by the Palestinian people. That didn't need to happen. It's largely Israels fault that it did.

All I'm going to say is this:

If someone is a real threat to me or my family or my home...

...a "proportionate" reaction is not something I'm going to entertain.

^^^ Thankyou Jim. Thats an excellent post.

Here we see the problem. If this issue can generate such tension on a music forum. Imagine the hatred on the ground between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

This issue is absolute dynamite, and WILL come to a very nasty end for one or both sides. It's been going on for decades, but the stakes appear to be getting higher. Hatred for Israel in the Arab/Muslim world is increasing. Israel continues to throw petrol on the flames, through their brutality. The west, the US in particular, continues to turn a blind eye to Israels behaviour, and continues to write blank cheques for her military machine. Efforts to push Israel into negotiations are merely token, by Washington, and by the likes of our arsehole Foreign Secretary David Milliband. If people are genuinely blind to the double standards at play here, then this problem will never be resolved. We often see images of death detsruction and massacre on our TV's from all over the world. In every case, the condemnation is almost always unamamous, but this is not so with with Israel. We see childrens corpes lined up on the pavement, spattered with blood. We see hungry families crying with desparation, as aid lorries are once again blocked ort turned away from the border crossings. If this was anywhere else there would be universal outrage, even if there was no actual action as such.

Someone said, put yourself in the shoes of the Israelis, being targetted by the Hamas rockets. This is quite easy for many British people to do; having been bombed by the IRA in the 70's and 80's, having been blitzed by the Nazis in WWII. History has shown us, with regard to terrorism, that you MUST talk to the terrorists. This is how we achieved something resembling the fragile peace we have in Northern Ireland. Israels refusal to engage with Hamas is not going to help, and in the absence of negotiations, that leaves one option open to Israel: The total wiping out of the Palestinians, because everytime they bomb a school or hospital in Gaza, another seed of hatred is sown. For every dismembered child carried out of the rubble following an airstrike, another militant is born. The more carnage Israel unleash on the civillian population of Gaza, the greater the support for Hamas will be.

If we assume that the Israeli government are not idiots, then we have to assume that their strategy is one of continuing this conflict for all time, or until they are given the right prompt to actually cull the enemy on mass; perhaps an attack from Iran or Syria; the major sponsors of the terror groups.

Perhaps President Obama will take a more even hand in how he handles the ME crisis. But the pressures on him to continue the tradtional and unconditional support for Israel, will be immense, and may cost him his presidency.

To make matters worse, I heard on the news this morning, that more rockets have been fored into northern Israel, from Lebanon, perhaps opening another front in the conflict. The last rocket attacks from Lebanon were attributed to Hamas, but if these are traced back to Hezbollah, then things could get alot worse before they get better.

What a world!

i happened across this little snippet on Wiki...

You know what? I apologize. I got carried away. But there's a supreme difference between voicing a thought-out opinion and coming in spewing a stance based on absolutely no facts. Especially one steeped in quasi-racist, dismissive language. You think Israel might be in the right? Fine. The situation isn't black and white and there are no easy solutions. But it's even harder when you make things up to suit a ridiculous platform.

In any case, 1800iareyay has provided the most reasonable view in this thread.  Of course, what he's posted is hardly a matter of controversy, at least for those that have some regard for facts.  The key point, however, and it's one that I don't believe has been stated explicitly here, is that the Israeli government is basically on Washington's leash: for easily discerned political purposes, Washington uses Israel as a destabilizing factor in the Middle East.  In fact, this has been stated quite plainly in high-level planning documents (now available to the public).


Edited by WinterLight - January 13 2009 at 23:29

1800iareyay wrote: birdwithteeth11 wrote: Last I checked, this was between Israel and Hamas, not Israel and Palestinians. They get sanctioned by the West because Hamas has been declared a terrorist group by many Western countries for many of the terrible atrocities they themselves have committed. The Palestinians suffer from "squalor and malnutrition and barbed wire" because Hamas currently runs that country and prefers to use money to launch missles at Israel rather than establish ways for Palestinians to get adequate food, water, shelter, etc.  They got kicked out of part of their country because the UN decided that Jews needed a homeland and no country wanted to take these large numbers of Jewish refugees in (not surprisingly at all). Granted, dealing with large numbers of refugees is part of the reason other Middle Eastern countries have closed their borders to these people, but the other part is because Hamas could easily use that as an excuse to slip their members into other countries as well as gain control in places other than Palestine. Is there anything I didn't provide an answer to for what you just said? Also, I keep mentioning Hamas because, how do I put this... oh yeah, THEY are the problem, NOT the Israelis. Until Hamas is driven out of Palestine, the Palestinians will never know anything except war, destruction, and chaos. You are seriously too stupid. You provided answers all right, just more made up ones. Refugees have been living there in squalor and waste since back when Egypt controlled it. When Israel took over, they didn't fix anything. Of course uneducated, starving, displaced masses voted for a party that vowed revenge for the people who put them there. If the roles were reversed, if Israel, the democracy, were lobbing missiles into the theocratic country that displaced them, the US would fund them to no end. But since there's a small contingent of terrorists (go figure, in a region that knows only poverty and oppression), and because terrorists are the new Communists, we back the country that violates UN resolutions by bombing civilians who don't even have a knife to use against soldiers. It's hilarious to know that you would have supported Britain in the Revolution. Tell Hamas and other terrorist groups to stop using civilians as human shields. Here's a fun lesson: when tanks and bombers decimate refugee camps with abandon, it's the attackers' fault. Unfortunately, Hamas is a group of people that doesn't conform to neat little things called the Geneva Convention of any other international codes of conducting war. Their main goal is to wipe Israel off the map, and they will do whatever it takes to accomplish that, no matter what the cost, and anyone who gets in their way be damned, including civilians. You're right, we should condem the people with a history of violating resolutions. And why am I not allowed to voice my own opinion? Is it simply because you disagree with me? Prove to me where I'm wrong and make me understand where you're coming from, because I don't have a reason to yet. I already proved you wrong by showing that Israel killed far more people. Then I did it again by pointing out that Israel is the one violating every UN resolution that pertains to it. Oh, and here's this gem: This one has more merit than the previous issue, although the fact that accusations were brought by other Arabs and left-wingers makes me suspicious. That's it, you're done. As laughable and racist as your previous posts were, this seals the deal on how worthless your attempts at discourse are.

I'm done, but mostly because you just want to disagree with me and treat me disrespectfully rather than have an intellectual discussion. If you want to mindlessly follow what a worthless organization like the UN says (I can't think of a time in the last 25 years where they've done something that's proven to be beneficial to our country. It's all just anti-United States and anti-Israel), go ahead, but I'm through with discussing things here. You don't listen to anything I've said and you've just said "you're wrong" to every point I've made. Feel free to disagree with me, but I'll be damned if you're going to keep talking to me like I'm a moron.

I also STILL don't see where or how I was racist in any of my posts. You can still attempt to point them out, but don't expect any more responses from me.


Edited by birdwithteeth11 - January 13 2009 at 23:23

Atavachron wrote: this thread is going down in flames..  Admin ?

Evidently, any discussion beyond an inane prog poll merits serious administrative attention:  for someone might be offended!

birdwithteeth11 wrote: Last I checked, this was between Israel and Hamas, not Israel and Palestinians. They get sanctioned by the West because Hamas has been declared a terrorist group by many Western countries for many of the terrible atrocities they themselves have committed. The Palestinians suffer from "squalor and malnutrition and barbed wire" because Hamas currently runs that country and prefers to use money to launch missles at Israel rather than establish ways for Palestinians to get adequate food, water, shelter, etc.  They got kicked out of part of their country because the UN decided that Jews needed a homeland and no country wanted to take these large numbers of Jewish refugees in (not surprisingly at all). Granted, dealing with large numbers of refugees is part of the reason other Middle Eastern countries have closed their borders to these people, but the other part is because Hamas could easily use that as an excuse to slip their members into other countries as well as gain control in places other than Palestine. Is there anything I didn't provide an answer to for what you just said? Also, I keep mentioning Hamas because, how do I put this... oh yeah, THEY are the problem, NOT the Israelis. Until Hamas is driven out of Palestine, the Palestinians will never know anything except war, destruction, and chaos.

You are seriously too stupid. You provided answers all right, just more made up ones. Refugees have been living there in squalor and waste since back when Egypt controlled it. When Israel took over, they didn't fix anything. Of course uneducated, starving, displaced masses voted for a party that vowed revenge for the people who put them there. If the roles were reversed, if Israel, the democracy, were lobbing missiles into the theocratic country that displaced them, the US would fund them to no end. But since there's a small contingent of terrorists (go figure, in a region that knows only poverty and oppression), and because terrorists are the new Communists, we back the country that violates UN resolutions by bombing civilians who don't even have a knife to use against soldiers. It's hilarious to know that you would have supported Britain in the Revolution.

Tell Hamas and other terrorist groups to stop using civilians as human shields.

Here's a fun lesson: when tanks and bombers decimate refugee camps with abandon, it's the attackers' fault.

Unfortunately, Hamas is a group of people that doesn't conform to neat little things called the Geneva Convention of any other international codes of conducting war. Their main goal is to wipe Israel off the map, and they will do whatever it takes to accomplish that, no matter what the cost, and anyone who gets in their way be damned, including civilians.

You're right, we should condem the people with a history of violating resolutions.

And why am I not allowed to voice my own opinion? Is it simply because you disagree with me? Prove to me where I'm wrong and make me understand where you're coming from, because I don't have a reason to yet.

I already proved you wrong by showing that Israel killed far more people. Then I did it again by pointing out that Israel is the one violating every UN resolution that pertains to it.

Oh, and here's this gem:

This one has more merit than the previous issue, although the fact that accusations were brought by other Arabs and left-wingers makes me suspicious.

That's it, you're done. As laughable and racist as your previous posts were, this seals the deal on how worthless your attempts at discourse are.

1800iareyay wrote: birdwithteeth11 wrote: Where do you think I'm being racist? I'm not trying to be and would be more than happy to clarify what I mean. Also, the reason I'm being one-sided is because last I checked, Muslim groups like Hamas have been the cause of much more violence and damage than any Jews or Jewish group that I can think of. Why the hell do people always blame Jews and/or Israel for causing problems when they just want to live in peace?! No, you didn't check, nor have you ever checked. The ratio from this conflict alone is 971:13. In the 2006 spat, 7 Israelis died compared to 394 deaths. I allow people's opinions, and have heard some interesting defenses for Israel, but if you're just going to parrot "why is everyone picking on noble, democratic Israel" talking points and just make sh*t up, kindly don't voice yours.

Tell Hamas and other terrorist groups to stop using civilians as human shields. Unfortunately, Hamas is a group of people that doesn't conform to neat little things called the Geneva Convention of any other international codes of conducting war. Their main goal is to wipe Israel off the map, and they will do whatever it takes to accomplish that, no matter what the cost, and anyone who gets in their way be damned, including civilians.

And why am I not allowed to voice my own opinion? Is it simply because you disagree with me? Prove to me where I'm wrong and make me understand where you're coming from, because I don't have a reason to yet.