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ShW1 
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 Topic: Not enough time between prog tracks
Posted: June 20 2009 at 03:39 |
Hi all,
I've been thinking about this for a while and would like to know what's your opinion, my friends/collaborators. I find that nowadays pause between tracks are mostly way too short. The experience of listening to one complex prog epic, or just complex long track of ten minutes or more, than get a rest of just two seconds, and than jump cruely into the next long pompose epic, is simply annoying.
Not always its been like that, and not in all geners. For example, this morning I've been listening to a non prog album, of songs in about 3-5 minutes each. (What was it? Ultra by Depech mode if you'd like to know). I messured some pauses. I've done it on the vinyl version. I count not less than 17 seconds between two songs. The pasue between other two songs was not less than 10 seconds.
In classical music there are always long pauses between track, for even 30 seconds or more. or even in parts of one sonata for instance. No problem at all.
Just in prog I have to suffer. I try to stop the CD between tracks, rest a little bit, and than continue. But it also kind of reduce my enjoyment.
How about you?
What do you feel?
Could we prog listeners make a call from here for the bands/artist, 'please, let us rest between track to track. Let us digest what we've just heard, and than continue' ?
Or are you satisfied with this situation?
I would like to read your response.
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tortellino
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 03:54 |
I think we're getting a bit anal o this...
Gap between tracks has never been an issue for me; there are great albums (prog or not) that just flows nicely from track to track, and I can't understand how one could be annoyed by that.
Two great examples: "Blood Sugar Sex Magic" by Red Hot Chili Peppers, and "A Pleasant Shade of Grey" by Fates Warning.
In the second case, the continuous flow of the songs is key to the emotional and artistic success of the opera, that is to be taken as a whole.
By the way, Depeche Mode "Ultra" is, in my book, a (great) pop album, and its nature doesn't require that the tracks have no gap between them; the same can be said for the majority of the mainstream albums out there.
Pop albums contains singles that can stand by themselves; prog albums (mostly) consist of intricate concepts that need a certain musical form to be fully developed and appreciated.
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tengo 'na minchia tanta
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progkidjoel
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Joined: March 02 2009
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 04:25 |
 tortellino wrote:
pop albums contains singles that can stand by themselves; prog albums (mostly) consist of intricate concepts that need a certain musical form to be fully developed and appreciated. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 05:17 |
I strongly dislike any gaps between tracks, so much so that I have set every album in my iTunes folder to be gapless. I want my albums to flow seamlessly
From Genesis To Revelation is a perfect example of this, often dismissed as a Beegees influenced pop album, I think it is a minor masterpiece of production and arrangement with small musical interludes or piano vignettes linking the tracks instead of the normal silence it results in a seamless and coherent album. Later issues of the album have carelessly added bonus tracks to the end that have spoiled this somewhat.
Another I would cite would be Pink Floyd's Echoes compilation album. Rather than being a random selection in chronological or "hit" order, the tracks have been carefully ordered and seamlessly blended from one to the other to produce an anthology that is greater than the simple sum of the parts and is more in keeping with Floyd studio albums.
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What?
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ExittheLemming
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 05:23 |
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This suggestion may have some merit methinks...An appropriate gap between tracks for someone like say Dream Theater or Tool ? Perhaps 30 to 40 years might be considered adequate.
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American Khatru
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Joined: March 28 2009
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 05:58 |
I often want longer pauses too. Coming up in the age of vinyl, it's kind of tough these days when listening to iTunes (as one is often forced to do) and having songs crowd in on each other (crowding in in my perception whether "gapless" or not). Especially when what I know to be the last track of side one slams into what I know to be the first song of side two. Now you can say "get over it" or some such dismissive, heartless garbage, but these prog artists mapped out these albums; these pauses were usually utilized - so we miss something today. Some examples I've heard at home recently: - Tales from Topographic Oceans (no comment necessary)
- BÖC - Tyranny and Mutation (first side Black, second side Red)
- Foxtrot (it ain't nice just slamming into Horizons like that!)
- The Wall (esp. when Goodbye Cruel World slams into Hey You; the sides here are critical)
- Rainbow Rising (please, let us pause for consideration before Stargazer)
- PFM - L'Isola di Niente
- Rundgren - A Wizard, a True Star (first side Wizard, second side True Star; Rundgren went further than BÖC above in naming the sides, and they are so different - I don't even listen to two much)
- Tarkus (the great album's side one slamming into "Jeremy Bender" is enough to make anyone hate ELP if momentarily)
Anyway, I know you didn't ask really about old music, but what the heck. Can we raise our voices and do something about it? Probably not when, on any given day, there seem to be tops about 12 people viewing this forum  . But hell, if the call goes out ("proggers unite!!") you can count me in. Won't be my first losing battle.
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ShW1
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 06:29 |
Thanks you all, well, it's interesting: Maybe again the 'generation gap', when 'olders' (me included) are willing for longer gaps, and 'youngers' who like the situation now...
The tracks that are leacking to the next, are another issue, relate to this one as well. In my opinion, it became a kind of fassion, (or mode), and I'm not sure I like all of those albums, I think this method is used way to much. Example: I would like to listen to 'Fear of the black planet' in much less leakeges. OK, OK, I know I'm in a minority here.
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Anderson III
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 08:16 |
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If a piece of music is large or has lots of information for the listener to digest, I believe a pause after it is absolutely mandatory! When one is listening to music, there are these polypeptides and neurotransmitters running amok in the blood stream, causing an emotional response in the listener. If you're not moved by a song in anyway, you can continue to the next one, sure. But if you're under a strong wave of emotion, it might be a good idea to breathe for a second before the next. If I'm listening to Strapping Yound Lad and immediately after it put A Change Is Gonna Come on, I can't feel the emotion cause I'm still feeling aggressive after SYL!
Basicly I think that when two tracks can be viewed as continuous, or the feeling doesn't change drastically between them (Brain Damage - Eclipse), the break isn't really necessary. But it'll be a cold day in hell when I skip the final seconds of ambience from The Gates of Delirium to rush into Sound Chaser!
You give your muscles a rest after a nice workout. Why not treat your brain the same?
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"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and cannot remain silent" - Victor Hugo
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rdtprog
Special Collaborator
Heavy, RPI, Symph, JR/F Cant, Neo Teams
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 08:24 |
it's the gap between songs that bother me. I love epic songs. I would love to be a DJ so i can mix my favorite epics to make it look like one song for 2 hours... 
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Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness.
Emile M. Cioran
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Weston
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 08:40 |
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I prefer a large gap between epics, just as in classical. It gives respect to the masterpieces.
What really drives me nuts in this era of digital music is the musician's penchant for filling the gap between songs or movements with wind or water sounds or ambient synth. You can have pieces flow after one another melodically or with the key or timbres without connecting them with ambiance. All this accomplishes is it makes me run them together into one mp3 file and prohibits me from listening to a more random playlist. I refuse to second guess the artist and make the ambience fade out and then fade back in for the next track.
Also if you buy mp3 versions and don't make your own from the CD, the ambience cuts off abruptly at the end of one track and starts abruptly at the beginning of the next. Almost as bad as an old 8 track stopping a piece in the middle, making whirring and clicking noises and then continuing on another track (for those of you old enough to remember 8 tracks).
I am not talking about marathon pieces like A Passion Play or TAAB. It's the songs or pieces that are clearly not all that related but connected with ambiance that drives me nuts. In the digital age with random play lists more the norm, artists should tailor their works to be listened to either sequentially or randomly. It is easily done.
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Statutory-Mike
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 08:40 |
Yeah, Colors would sound terrific with 30 seconds between each track 
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American Khatru
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 08:41 |
Holy smokes, these last two posts couldn't be more opposed. Personally I side with my new friend Anderson III. And at least he explains himself/his view.  Edit: Whoops, by "last two posts" I meant Anderson III's and rdtprog's. (Ya gotta move fast sometimes in here!)
Edited by American Khatru - June 20 2009 at 08:43
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American Khatru
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 08:45 |
Weston wrote:
... Almost as bad as an old 8 track stopping a piece in the middle, making whirring and clicking noises and then continuing on another track (for those of you old enough to remember 8 tracks)
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Prog on 8 track was brutal.
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Anderson III
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 09:19 |
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"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and cannot remain silent" - Victor Hugo
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GaryB
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 10:34 |
I listen to all my music on vinyl (except in the car, obviously) so you should be able to count the bands and compare it to the titles on the jacket. But, there is not always a visable gap between tracks.
The "short gap" or "no gap at all" is not uncommon in the 70s music I play every day. If I'm just listening, then it's not a problem. But if I'm rating an album then it becomes a little confusing.
I rate each song with a 5, 4, 3, etc. and then total the score and divide by the number of songs for an overall album rating. If you're not sure how many songs there are (regardless of what the LP cover says) then this rating method will not be accurate.
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KingCrimson250
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 10:47 |
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I'm a younger guy, but I definately agree with the OP. I don't think it's applicable in all situations, but I definately feel that there's a lot of instances where that pause would add a lot to the music. It's like public speaking, when you say something major, you pause afterwards so it can sink in. I think prog music often needs the same thing. When an incredible song ends, you don't want to be suddenly launched into the next song. To me that's the instant gratification mentality that is basically as anti-prog as you can get. Instead, I generally want a few seconds to pause and reflect on what just happened. If I want to do that, I generally need to push pause, though, because most artists don't really consider that when making the album.
Evidently there are lots of exceptions. For example, when we're talking about one song spread out over multiple tracks. Dark Side of the Moon doesn't need a pause between songs because the pause is after the album, when you kind of just sit there like "Did that just happen?" I think that was kind of cool about LPs, how you had to flip them halfway through, leaving you room to consider that. With CDs that's gone. Of course, Genesis, ahead of their time as always, anticipated this change and included a three minute ten second pause after Firth of Fifth on SEBTP to simulate the flipping of sides even after the vinyl days were well over.
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JROCHA
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 11:32 |
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We prog fans dont need rest! I love how the songs keep flowing on prog albums. Its like a movie sort of......
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Dean
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Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 12:00 |
One album that's totally ruined by iTunes adding 3 second gaps between tracks:
Songs / Tracks Listing
1:st MOVEMENT
1. Nerves In Rush (0:06)
2. Death Ascends - The Hunt (part I) (0:15)
3. You Can't Hide Forever (0:23)
4. Right On Time For Murder - The Hunt (part II) (1:31)
2:nd MOVEMENT
5. Conscious In No Materia (0:39)
6. A Different Plane (0:21)
7. Invisible To Us (0:40)
8. The One Who Hides a Face Inside (1:09)
3:rd MOVEMENT
9. ...And Don't Ever Listen To What It Says (0:56)
10. Revelation of The Puzzle (0:57)
11. Human Prophecy (0:20)
12. Where The Suffering Leads (0:18)
4:th MOVEMENT
13. The Remains of Galactic Expulsions (0:11)
14. With Panic In The Heart (0:22)
15. Out From The Dark (0:45)
16. Still Coming At You (0:29)
17. Out From a Deeper Dark (0:28)
5:th MOVEMENT
18. Spinning Back The Clocks (1:42)
6:th MOVEMENT
19. Soaring Over Dead Rooms (2:18)
7:th MOVEMENT
20. The Enemy Is The Earth (0:35)
21. Recall (0:13)
22. All Exits Blocked (0:34)
23. The Memory Is Weak (0:11)
24. Struck at Random/Outermost Fear (0:19)
25. Sparks of Childhood Coming Back (0:27)
8:th MOVEMENT
26. Old People's Voodoo Seance (1:24)
27. Mary-Lee Goes Crazy (0:32)
28. Something Has Arrived (0:15)
29. Possession of The Voodoo Party (0:46)
9:th MOVEMENT
30. Not of Flesh, Not of Blood (0:50)
31. Intact With a Human Psyche (1:02)
32. Keeping Faith (1:06)
10:th MOVEMENT
33. Someone Knows What Scares You (0:29)
34. A Bad Case of Nerves (0:50)
35. The Inverted Dream / No Sleep In Peace (0:16)
36. Information (0:16)
37. Setting The Course (0:52)
11:th MOVEMENT
38. Ghost Inhabitants (0:49)
39. Fleeing From Town (1:01)
40. Overlooked Parts (0:50)
12:th MOVEMENT
41. A New Spark - Victory Theme (part I) (0:48)
42. Hope - Victory Theme (part II) (0:59)
43. Family Portraits - Victory Theme (part III) (0:35)
13:Th MOVEMENT
44. Smokes Starts To Churn (0:08)
45. Hesitant Behaviour (1:35)
46. A Hurricane of Rotten Air (0:18)
14:th MOVEMENT
47. Mastering The Clock (0:54)
15:th MOVEMENT
48. They Come, You Go (2:10)
16:th MOVEMENT
49. Haarad El Chamon (0:19)
50. The Egyptian Resort (0:34)
51. The Pyramid (0:23)
52. Frenzy Moods and Other Odditites (1:09)
17:th MOVEMENT
53. Still Part of The Design - The Hunt (part III) (0:17)
54. Definite Departure (0:36)
18:th MOVEMENT
55. Returning To Haarad El Chamon (0:45)
56. Life Eater (0:32)
57. The Pulze (0:27)
58. The Defiled Feeds (0:36)
19:th MOVEMENT
59. The River In Space (0:56)
60. A Soulflight Back To Life (1:18)
20:th MOVEMENT
61. Instant Rebirth - Alternate Ending (0:05)
Total Time: 43:22 - actual playing time on iPlod: 46:22
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What?
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Anderson III
Forum Senior Member
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 12:19 |
JROCHA wrote:
We prog fans dont need rest! I love how the songs keep flowing on prog albums. Its like a movie sort of......
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I believe in movies too when a new scene is about to begin there's usually a moment or two of silence before the dialogue or action starts... 
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"Music expresses that which cannot be put into words and cannot remain silent" - Victor Hugo
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The Truth
Collaborator
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Posted: June 20 2009 at 13:14 |
I think it would be a silly thing to have a lot of space between songs because the listener quickly loses interest in the album as a whole. At least they don't have a lot of fading out songs in prog.
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Not enough time between prog tracks
