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ExittheLemming View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2022 at 15:30
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Isn't NATO and US interference in 2014 preceded by the Holomodor ? And isn't the Holomodor preceded by the Czarist Empire which ,of course everyone knows in Russia, was really a trade deal expansion all the way to Vladisvostok ? Confused


Reductio ad absurdum: which caveman swung the first club in anger?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2022 at 16:49

Navigating our Humanity: Ilan Pappé on the Four Lessons from Ukraine


By Ilan Pappe

The USA Today reported that a photo that went viral about a high-rise in the Ukraine being hit by Russian bombing turned out to be a high-rise from the Gaza Strip, demolished by the Israeli Air Force in May 2021. A few days before that, the Ukrainian Foreign Minister complained to the Israeli ambassador in Kiev that “you’re treating us like Gaza”; he was furious that Israel did not condemn the Russian invasion and was only interested in evicting Israeli citizens from the state (Haaretz, February 17, 2022). It was a mixture of reference to the Ukrainian evacuation of Ukrainian spouses of Palestinian men from the Gaza Strip in May 2021, as well as a reminder to Israel of the Ukrainian president’s full support for Israel’s assault on the Gaza Strip in that month (I will return to that support towards the end of this piece).


Israel’s assaults on Gaza should, indeed, be mentioned and considered when evaluating the present crisis in the Ukraine. It is not a coincidence that photos are being confused – there are not many high-rises that were toppled in the Ukraine, but there is an abundance of ruined high-rises in the Gaza Strip. However, it is not only the hypocrisy about Palestine that emerges when we consider the Ukraine crisis in a wider context; it is the overall Western double standards that should be scrutinized, without, for one moment, being indifferent to news and images coming to us from the war zone in the Ukraine: traumatized children, streams of refugees, sights of buildings ruined by bombing and the looming danger that this is only the beginning of a human catastrophe at the heart of Europe.

At the same time, those of us experiencing, reporting and digesting the human catastrophes in Palestine cannot escape the hypocrisy of the West and we can point to it without belittling, for a moment, our human solidarity and empathy with victims of any war. We need to do this, since the moral dishonesty underwriting the deceitful agenda set by the Western political elites and media will once more allow them to hide their own racism and impunity as it will continue to provide immunity for Israel and its oppression of the Palestinians. I detected four false assumptions which are at the heart of the Western elite’s engagement with the Ukraine crisis, so far, and have framed them as four lessons.

Lesson One: White Refugees are Welcome; Others Less So

The unprecedented collective EU decision to open up its borders to the Ukrainian refugees, followed by a more guarded policy by Britain, cannot go unnoticed in comparison to the closure of most of the European gates to the refugees coming from the Arab world and Africa since 2015.  The clear racist prioritization, distinguishing between life seekers on the basis of color, religion and ethnicity is abhorrent, but unlikely to change very soon. Some European leaders are not even ashamed to broadcast their racism publicly as does the Bulgarian Prime Minister, Kiril Petkov:

“These [the Ukrainian refugees] are not the refugees we are used to … these people are Europeans. These people are intelligent, they are educated people. … This is not the refugee wave we have been used to, people we were not sure about their identity, people with unclear pasts, who could have been even terrorists…”

He is not alone. The Western media talks about “our kind of refugees” all the time, and this racism is manifested clearly on the border crossings between the Ukraine and its European neighbours. This racist attitude, with strong Islamophobic undertones, is not going to change, since the European leadership is still denying the multi-ethnic and multicultural fabric of societies all over the continent. A human reality created by years of European colonialism and imperialism that the current European governments deny and ignore and, at the same time, these governments pursue immigration policies that are based on the very same racism that permeated the colonialism and imperialism of the past. 

Lesson Two: You Can Invade Iraq but not the Ukraine

The Western media’s unwillingness to contextualize the Russian decision to invade within a wider – and obvious – analysis of how the rules of the international game changed in 2003 is quite bewildering. It is difficult to find any analysis that points to the fact that the US and Britain violated international law on a state’s sovereignty when their armies, with a coalition of Western countries, invaded Afghanistan and Iraq.  Occupying a whole country for the sake of political ends was not invented in this century by Vladimir Putin; it was introduced as a justified tool of policy by the West.

Lesson Three: Sometimes Neo-Nazism Can Be Tolerated

The analysis also fails to highlight some of Putin’s valid points about the Ukraine; which by no means justify the invasion, but need our attention even during the invasion.  Up to the present crisis, the progressive Western media outlets, such as The Nation, the Guardian, the Washington Post etc., warned us about the growing power of neo-Nazi groups in the Ukraine that could impact the future of Europe and beyond. The same outlets today dismiss the significance of neo-Nazism in the Ukraine.

The Nation on February 22, 2019 reported:

“Today, increasing reports of far-right violence, ultra nationalism and erosion of basic freedoms are giving the lie to the West’s initial euphoria. There are neo-Nazi pogroms against the Roma, rampant attacks on feminists and LGBT groups, book bans, and state-sponsored glorification of Nazi collaborators.”

Two years earlier, the Washington Post (June 15, 2017) warned, very perceptively, that a Ukrainian clash with Russia should not allow us to forget about the power of neo-Nazism in the Ukraine:

“As Ukraine’s fight against Russian-supported separatists continues, Kiev faces another threat to its long-term sovereignty: powerful right-wing ultra-nationalist groups. These groups are not shy about using violence to achieve their goals, which are certainly at odds with the tolerant Western-oriented democracy Kiev ostensibly seeks to become.”

However, today, the Washington Post adopts a dismissive attitude and calls such a description as a “false accusation”:

“Operating in Ukraine are several nationalist paramilitary groups, such as the Azov movement and Right Sector, that espouse neo-Nazi ideology. While high-profile, they appear to have little public support. Only one far-right party, Svoboda, is represented in Ukraine’s parliament, and only holds one seat.”

The previous warnings of an outlet such as The Hill (November 9, 2017), the largest independent news site in the USA, are forgotten: 

“There are, indeed, neo-Nazi formations in Ukraine. This has been overwhelmingly confirmed by nearly every major Western outlet. The fact that analysts are able to dismiss it as propaganda disseminated by Moscow is profoundly disturbing. It is especially disturbing given the current surge of neo-Nazis and white supremacists across the globe.”

Lesson Four: Hitting High-rises is only a War Crime in Europe

The Ukrainian establishment does not only have a connection with these neo-Nazi groups and armies, it is also disturbingly and embarrassingly pro-Israeli.  One of President Volodymyr Zelensky’s first acts was to withdraw the Ukraine from the United Nations Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People – the only international tribunal that makes sure the Nakba is not denied or forgotten

The decision was initiated by the Ukrainian President; he had no sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian refugees, nor did he consider them to be victims of any crime. In his interviews after the last barbaric Israeli bombardment of the Gaza Strip in May 2021, he stated that the only tragedy in Gaza was the one suffered by the Israelis.  If this is so, than it is only the Russians who suffer in the Ukraine. 

But Zelensky is not alone. When it comes to Palestine, the hypocrisy reaches a new level. One empty high-rise hit in the Ukraine dominated the news and prompted deep analysis about human brutality, Putin and inhumanity. These bombings should be condemned, of course, but it seems that those leading the condemnation among world leaders were silent when Israel flattened the town of Jenin in 2000, the Al-Dahaya neighborhood in Beirut in 2006 and the city of Gaza in one brutal wave after the other, over the past fifteen years. No sanctions, whatsoever, were even discussed, let alone imposed, on Israel for its war crimes in 1948 and ever since. In fact, in most of the Western countries which are leading the sanctions against Russia today, even mentioning the possibility of imposing sanctions against Israel is illegal and framed as anti-Semitic.

Even when genuine human solidarity in the West is justly expressed with the Ukraine, we cannot overlook its racist context and Europe-centric bias. The massive solidarity of the West is reserved for whoever is willing to join its bloc and sphere of influence. This official empathy is nowhere to be found when similar, and worse, violence is directed against non-Europeans, in general, and towards the Palestinians, in particular. 

We can navigate as conscientious persons between our responses to calamities and our responsibility to point out hypocrisy that in many ways paved the way for such catastrophes. Legitimizing internationally the invasion of sovereign countries and licensing the continued colonization and oppression of others, such as Palestine and its people, will lead to more tragedies, such as the Ukrainian one, in the future, and everywhere on our planet. 

https://www.palestinechronicle.com/navigating-our-humanity-ilan-pappe-on-the-four-lessons-from-ukraine/



Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 12 2022 at 17:06
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2022 at 17:16
Excellent points Mr. Baldwin.  Meanwhile, Iran bombs US Army base.  
 
https://www.eutimes.net/2022/03/breaking-iran-bombs-us-army-base-in-erbil-iraq-with-ballistic-missiles/

Multiple rockets have smashed into a US Army base and a Kurdish news channel office in Erbil, northern Iraq.

At least five ‘Iranian-produced ballistic missiles’ hit the city in the early hours of Sunday, Governor Omed Khoshnaw confirmed.

He said it was not clear whether the missiles were targeting the American consulate at the site, or the airport in the city.

There were ‘victims or casualties after Erbil blasts’ Kurdish Health Minister Saman Barzanji said. US officials later confirmed there were no military victims of the blasts.

No further details were immediately available but videos posted online appeared to show several ‘Iranian produced’ ballistic missiles hitting the base in Erbil.


See the article for three separate videos of the missile attack. 

Update: Some reports American military aircraft are being scrambled out of bases in Qatar



Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 13 2022 at 05:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2022 at 18:03
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Isn't NATO and US interference in 2014 preceded by the Holomodor ? And isn't the Holomodor preceded by the Czarist Empire which ,of course everyone knows in Russia, was really a trade deal expansion all the way to Vladisvostok ? Confused



Reductio ad absurdum: which caveman swung the first club in anger?
Exactly. And the answer to this thread.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2022 at 18:18
Over six million purportedly have died in the Democratic Republic of Congo in the last few decades and no threads for our African brothers and sisters. Of course they were pawns in a game that mines coltan to create our electronic devices. Not condoning any mafia violence against the innocents, just pointing out the hypocrisy of how the West reacts to Caucasian atrocities and doesn't seem as concerned about the slow burning genocides of our pigmented friends. It's all bad. Not looking for a response here.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2022 at 18:41
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Isn't NATO and US interference in 2014 preceded by the Holomodor ? And isn't the Holomodor preceded by the Czarist Empire which ,of course everyone knows in Russia, was really a trade deal expansion all the way to Vladisvostok ? Confused



Reductio ad absurdum: which caveman swung the first club in anger?
Exactly. And the answer to this thread.


The ends of America and Russia are exactly the same i.e. they both want to control Ukraine as a puppet state with their own choice of president malleable to their cash/weapons incentives. Only the means are different so neither own the moral high ground here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2022 at 20:41
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Isn't NATO and US interference in 2014 preceded by the Holomodor ? And isn't the Holomodor preceded by the Czarist Empire which ,of course everyone knows in Russia, was really a trade deal expansion all the way to Vladisvostok ? Confused



Reductio ad absurdum: which caveman swung the first club in anger?
Exactly. And the answer to this thread.


The ends of America and Russia are exactly the same i.e. they both want to control Ukraine as a puppet state with their own choice of president malleable to their cash/weapons incentives. Only the means are different so neither own the moral high ground here.

Well, I guess that means nothing has changed since 1945 then! Reductio ad absurdum and nothing has changed in this thread either, as the same 2 main and distinguished orators have taken the microphone. 


Edited by tszirmay - March 12 2022 at 20:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2022 at 21:13
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Over six million purportedly have died in the Democratic Republic of Congo in the last few decades and no threads for our African brothers and sisters. Of course they were pawns in a game that mines coltan to create our electronic devices. Not condoning any mafia violence against the innocents, just pointing out the hypocrisy of how the West reacts to Caucasian atrocities and doesn't seem as concerned about the slow burning genocides of our pigmented friends. It's all bad. Not looking for a response here.

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This was not reported in the Western media much at all, right? Aren't they people too?! ConfusedConfusedAngry
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2022 at 04:52
@siLLy puPPy: Has anyone stopped you from opening a thread on this, or deleted it?


Edited by Lewian - March 13 2022 at 04:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2022 at 05:17
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Isn't NATO and US interference in 2014 preceded by the Holomodor ? And isn't the Holomodor preceded by the Czarist Empire which ,of course everyone knows in Russia, was really a trade deal expansion all the way to Vladisvostok ? Confused



Reductio ad absurdum: which caveman swung the first club in anger?
Exactly. And the answer to this thread.


The ends of America and Russia are exactly the same i.e. they both want to control Ukraine as a puppet state with their own choice of president malleable to their cash/weapons incentives. Only the means are different so neither own the moral high ground here.
Oh, absolutely Iain. Just because people are disgusted with Russia invading Ukraine, that does not mean that they condone past atrocities by other countries and their actions, like those of America. As I've said before, no superpower is better than another in that regard. Just worse.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2022 at 05:42
@Lorenzo: I honestly don't think that underlining the hypocrisy of Western politics makes us better understand the reasons of Russian invasion of Ukraine - there is as much, if not more, hypocrisy to be found in Eastern politics. This can only become an up-bidding of examples of hypocrisy, lies, broken promises, etc. that will - in my opinion - only get us bogged down more into binary thought instead of getting us out of that.

In my opinion, NATO expansion can only be considered as a menace from a Russian (Putinist?) point of view. For the Eastern European countries that became member of NATO, it is/was rather a guarantee to not fall again under a Russian domination/dependence, be it economic or military. (Also: NATO is not a country and cannot be taken as a synonym for the USA. Don't forget, as an example, that USA's proposal of an Ukrainian membership of NATO was vetoed by Germany and France in 2008).
Since the creation of the Community of Independent States by Yeltsin in 1991, it became rather clear that a "partnership" with Russia meant just a new domination by that country. The Visegrad and GUAM countries didn't want that and would rather protect their new found sovereignty. To guarantee that sovereignty a membership of NATO seem(ed) a logical step.
Transnistria (1992), Chechnya (1994-1996), Georgia (2008), Ukraine (2014 and now) only prove them right: their sovereignty is under threat. Russian sovereignty has never been under threat; that perception is just that: a perception. And this feeds the narrative and discourse that Putin wants to make us believe in.

For me, the central questioning in all this should not be the (perceived) menace - of a Russian or a NATO expansion - but the sovereignty of countries. In these last 30 years, Russia has not a very good track record in respecting the sovereignty of countries...


Edited by suitkees - March 13 2022 at 11:46

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2022 at 06:40
John Mearsheimer's opinion: 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2022 at 06:42
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

@Lorenzo: I honestly don't think that underlining the hypocrisy of Western politics makes us better understand the reasons of Russian invasion of Ukraine - there is as much, if not more, hypocrisy to be found in Eastern politics. This can only become an up-bidding of examples of hypocrisy, lies, broken promises, etc. that will - in my opinion - only engrave us more into binary though instead of getting us out of that.

In my opinion, NATO expansion can only be considered as a menace from a Russian (Putinist?) point of view. For the Eastern European countries that became member of NATO, it is/was rather a guarantee to not fall again under a Russian domination/dependence, be it economic or military. (Also: NATO is not a country and cannot be taken as a synonym for the USA. Don't forget, as an example, that USA's proposal of an Ukrainian membership of NATO was vetoed by Germany and France in 2008).
Since the creation of the Community of Independent States by Yeltsin in 1991, it became rather clear that a "partnership" with Russia meant just a new domination by that country. The Visegrad and GUAM countries didn't want that and would rather protect their new found sovereignty. To guarantee that sovereignty a membership of NATO seem(ed) a logical step.
Transistria (1992), Chechnya (1994-1996), Georgia (2008), Ukraine (2014 and now) only prove them right: their sovereignty is under threat. Russian sovereignty has never been under threat; that perception is just that: a perception. And this feeds the narrative and discourse that Putin wants to make us believe in.

For me, the central questioning in all this should not be the (perceived) menace - of a Russian or a NATO expansion - but the sovereignty of countries. In these last 30 years, Russia has not a very good track record in respecting the sovereignty of countries...

This is what I call a factual explanation, devoid of political slant or blame. Those who say that NATO is getting too close to Russia, well it works both ways, Russia is getting too close to NATO by “retaking” Ukraine, no? . It is just a line in the sand, it doesn’t matter where, and frankly with ICBMs , having land based missiles is a moot point, just an excuse to complain. Put up another Iron Curtain Mr. Putin , your Soviet version did already once , you can do it again…..It seems that the most pragmatic, lucid, cogent and realistic perspectives come from those nations bordering Russia . Whether the Baltic states, or Poland and Hungary (who have a long history of conflict with the Eastern Empire), the current leaders reflect a cool logic that basically encompasses NEVER AGAIN. Their freedom came after a multi-generational struggle with said empire. Recently, in an interview, the Finnish president also showed remarkable pragmatism and insight in being a neighbour with some "history" with the Bear. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2022 at 06:53
Originally posted by Woon Deadn Woon Deadn wrote:

John Mearsheimer's opinion: 


I saw his previous pre-invasion video on the current crisis and he stated various "opinions" that turned out to be quite incorrect, namely "Putin is not stupid to invade Ukraine" , among a few others. Now, it's "Ukraine depending on the US" , no they want to join NATO and the EU, formally and not become the 51st State of the Union. 

A historian reads the past and does not /should never guess on what will happen next as that enters the realm of commentary without factual support. I did mention in a now closed thread, that the W5 is based on the when, where, what and who (which some like to nevertheless distort, omit or falsify) and the complex WHY , which of course is the one area where said "opinions" can come into play and create the "fake news" element so dear to our social media world. 
It's like going to a corrida , where the hapless bull is constantly goaded, provoked, and teased by the picadors , in order for the matador to do his bloody work. And who do we cheer for?  Shocked


Edited by tszirmay - March 13 2022 at 06:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2022 at 09:44
Current news on the war:

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2022 at 10:07
In the fog of war, confusion reigns and tempers flare.  An Indian TV host confuses his two guests identities, because the Ukrainian guest is misidentified as the American guest...and visa versa. Hilarity ensues. 

 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2022 at 10:15
LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2022 at 10:34
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

In the fog of war, confusion reigns and tempers flare.  An Indian TV host confuses his two guests identities, because the Ukrainian guest is misidentified as the American guest...and visa versa. Hilarity ensues.


I don't find this hilarious at all. It just illustrates the moral bankruptcy of some media who put opinions over fact-checked news. A decent TV-station should sack this so called editor-in-chief, first of all because he is yelling at his guests, and, second of all, in his yelling he is is making a very awkward, disturbing and indefensible amalgamation of opinions (because not really based on facts) that just undermines any authority he might have had - if he had any.
The confusion of identities is just a stupid mistake; the "editor-in-chief"'s behavior is unworthy of anything or anyone who claims to have some journalistic deontology. He clearly is void of that.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2022 at 10:56
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

@siLLy puPPy: Has anyone stopped you from opening a thread on this, or deleted it?


I don't do political threads on a music site. I'm just pointing out that everyone seems to go gaga about European conflicts and completely ignores the daily violence perpetuated against other nations around the world. Why? Media hype. This was just a reminder not a condemnation. My heart goes out to all the innocents in Ukraine, Russia, Belarus or wherever. We're all one big family. I've personally been helping with GoFundMe sites for an orphanage in Uganda.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2022 at 11:55
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth"
" Never trust the Russians, they don't even trust themselves" 

Both quotes from Otto von Bismarck 
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