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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 18:20
Ten citizens standing in a bread line gunned down by putin's army.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 18:56
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Ten citizens standing in a bread line gunned down by putin's army.

Yes, just when you thought that bombing the theater couldn't be worse, then this happens.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 18:57
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Russian military leader told to shut up on Russian TV for wanting to honor fallen Russian soldiers. The Russian government and state controlled news does not want the Russian people to know the truth about what is going on.


When a loud mouth little fascist oligarch wannabe, with his playboy looks, starts yelling at a Russian officer, you wonder why he doesn't shave his head, take his shoe off and start banging it on the podium, saying "We Will bury you" (the Ukrainians). Despicable......Angry
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:01
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Lorenzo, I agree with a lot of what you post elsewhere, but here you really don’t speak for the many, but for the few. Perhaps in Italy it is true that most share your view - though you are the only Italian in my circle of friends who thinks this way. You also speak as if you’ve been sucked in by either pro-Russian or anti-US propaganda, when you talk about Crimea being for all intents and purposes Russian, or that the troubles in the Donbas are down to Ukrainian repression.

The only reason Russia is “to all intents and purposes” Russian, is because no one offered to help Ukraine defend it against invasion and occupation in 2014, and that’s in part because (and I am going to sound like a Putin sympathiser here, which I assure you I’m not) the 2014 invasion and occupation is as much the fault of the West as it is Russia. Crimea became part of the Ukraine in 1991. The West drew up new borders, and allocated territories to countries in a manner similar to the aftermath of WWI - and just as that was one cause of WWII, so was Crimea being given to Ukraine one cause of the 2014 invasion.

It may not be the size of Russia, but in Europe, Ukraine is still a larger country in the region, and as such definitely consists of various regions and cultures that can be very different from each other. So just as there are regions elsewhere in Europe, like the Basque and Catalonia, that feel separate in some ways from the countries they exist within, the same can be said for Ukraine. It’s undeniable that some regions were not entirely happy with the way borders were (re)drawn, and that modern Ukraine has regions where the majority are Russians, not Ukrainians. The Maidan was practically unanimously supported in Western Ukraine, but no much in other parts. Thus the 2014 conflict, and the initial incursions into two Ukrainian “separatist states” as “peacekeepers” is partly a consequence of Euromaidan.

Which doesn't mean I justify Russia's or the West's behaviour then, or now. Both sides were and are wrong in different ways. Both sides have little knowledge of each other, and both sides heavily rely on prejudices, stereotypes and propaganda. The only victims are the innocent Ukrainians and Russians, of which there are both This is a war by the leaders of one country, and not of the peoples who live in either.

Now, before someone goes to correct me, and say that Crimea became part of Ukraine in 1954, yes and no. The borders were changed, but it was a purely symbolic change within the USSR in 1954. It was not meant to mean anything more than, for an analogy, giving someone a key to the city. Crimea becoming Ukrainian in 1954 was as real as the Queen being the head of state in the UK. Symbolic only. At the time, the thought that the USSR might one day be dissolved was unthinkable, and borders between SSRs were largely arbitrary and meaningless.

From Putin’s point of view (whether correct or not) Crimea has always been predominantly Russian, and a Russian state. Ukrainians are not only a minority, but the smallest minority within the region. Apart from the symbolic change in 1954, Crimea has been considered Russian since sometime in the 1700s/1800s (and yes, I’m admitting I can’t remember the exact year, but I know I can Google and find it out should you wish me to).

Again, I’m not saying Putin was right to invade Crimea (he wasn’t), but it was potentially inevitable and preventable. As were the recent “peacekeeping activities” in two further Russian majority regions of the Ukraine. 

What has happened since is wrong on every level, but what happened prior (from 2014 onwards) was still wrong, but in some ways understandable. Again, I am not exonerating Putin, nor suggesting I agree with anything he has done.

But even though the majority of Crimeans are Russian, many of them (and all the Ukrainians and Tartars) consider Crimea to be Ukrainian. I mentioned regions like the Basque and Catalonia, but realistically Crimea and the Donbas are nothing like this, and have never attempted to become separatist/independent/Russian states. Some people within those regions may have expressed a wish for independence, but by no means were they a majority - and much of the supposed independent movement is either pure propaganda, or comes from Russia, rather than from the Russians who have lived peacefully in the regions.

Lest it be confused, I am against any illegal and aggressive occupation of one country by another, whether that is Ukraine by Russia, Palestine by Israel, or Armenia by Azerbaijan - to name just three. There are sympathisers for both sides of all those invasions/occupations. Why? Because there is no black and white.

Putin is wrong. Putin is guilty. To assume that he is the only wrong party, and the only guilty party is disingenuous at best. But the guilt of the West in events leading up this is now irrelevant. Putin has gone to war, and that is black and white. The guilt is on him alone for that one, and why should Ukraine have to negotiate to his terms. Quite simply, they shouldn’t.

Crimea is Ukraine. The Donbas is Ukraine. That is non-negiotable for Ukraine, and I can completely understand why.

We should be giving far more support to the Ukraines/Palestines/Armenias of this world. (And yes, it is slightly ironic that Russia is aiding Armenia against the Azerbaijani aggression.)

And for sure, the UK government should not still be making arms and fuel deals with Syria.

And there are conflicts in Africa and across the world.

But whataboutism and relativism have no place here. This is war, and despite earlier entreaties by some to the contrary, this is genocide.

I posted on FB on 8 March that I believed that the only reason Putin has consistently declared that Russians and Ukrainians are one people, is to mitigate against claims of genocide. I have seen several people claim that it is impossible to suggest Putin is committing genocide, simply because he keeps making such statements about how Russian and Ukrainian people are one.

Yet targets for shelling have been hospitals (including maternity hospitals), schools, and residential blocks. And despite talk of humanitarian corridors and ceasefires, I have had multiple reports from either friends in Ukraine, or friends throughout the world who are attempting to help their friends in Ukraine, that when these corridors are opened at all, they are allowing safe(r) passage only into Russia.

The very day after I made that post, another maternity hospital was shelled, and because there was video footage of this one, it seemed to hit the news the way previous attacks of hospitals and schools had not.

I have a friend in who is trying to help family in Ukraine. They are stuck in their cold apartment (which no longer has windows or electricity), and who have watched other residents targeted as they attempt to flee. They want to leave, but can’t. Thanks to financial help from my friend, they have money to buy food (as they have almost run out), but leaving their apartment to attempt to get it is risking their lives.

I know some people who seem to think that Ukraine is not innocent in all this, and brought some of this upon themselves. Well, regardless of whether you think that or not, surely you recognise that it wasn’t the Ukrainian people. The ones who are dying. Even if you think Ukraine’s government has been wrong in the past, the Ukrainian people are innocent. Stop blaming the people of a country for the actions of its leader. This goes for Russia and Belarus, too. 

I have seen countless posts on FB from friends around the world who are attempting to help friends and family, or complete strangers, in Ukraine. Ceasefires and humanitarian corridors are reported, but have never meaningfully existed (except to allow travel to Russia).

Putin has taken refugees from Ukraine, by opening up corridors to the country for Russians in Ukraine, and supposedly Ukrainians desperate enough to take that route (and though it is hard to find  accurate reporting on this, it would appear that very few Ukrainians have taken this option), and he has been targeting the next generation of Ukrainians with schools and maternity hospitals targeted.

And as was posted in this thread, one of the latest atrocities was that a monastery that had opened itself to refugees was targeted. Why? Well clearly not because it has any military capabilities. Rather, I expect, it was because upwards of 500 displaced Ukrainians were seeking refuge there, over half of which were children.

Due to shelling, there are many internally displaced Ukrainians. If they are unable to leave Ukraine, all they can do is seek safer refuge within the country. And those safer refuges are not safe, as seen by the shelling of the Sviatogorsk Lavra monastery. 

This is genocide.

I stand with Ukraine.

💙💛🇺🇦💙💛



Word! Well said! 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:09
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Russian military leader told to shut up on Russian TV for wanting to honor fallen Russian soldiers. The Russian government and state controlled news does not want the Russian people to know the truth about what is going on.



When a loud mouth little fascist oligarch wannabe, with his playboy looks, starts yelling at a Russian officer, you wonder why he doesn't shave his head, take his shoe off and start banging it on the podium, saying "We Will bury you" (the Ukrainians). Despicable......Angry
Yeah, arrogant pretty boy yelling at a soldier who is out there doing his dirty work ... disgusting.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:11
I hope we do not get anymore of this 'blame the victim' nonsense from the previous page. Reminds me of when people say a rape victim was just 'asking for it'. I find such thinking to be extremely disturbing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:12
In Putin's mind: " Russia without Ukraine is a country, but Russia with Ukraine is an empire" . But in Russia, 110 people own 35% of the wealth , the most unequal country in the world , except for North Korea where 1 person owns 100% of the wealth. The 110 want an empire again. The real Putin emerged in February 2007 at the Munich conference. What he said then is what he is doing now, just like with Mein Kampf.......He is not a hypocrite but he is a professional liar (as per his career in Dresden) . 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:19
And of course what is never mentioned is that Ukraine asked to be a member of NATO and not the other way around. Poland and Hungary asked for membership hours after getting rid of the Warsaw Pact troops that went back to Russia in 1991. Proof in Ukraine's case: Both France and Germany vetoed (I repeat VETOED) their candidacy on more than one occasion. One surely can't blame the Yanks for that? 

Furthermore, NATO bombing of Serbia was , as I had stated earlier in another fossilized thread, began 4 years after Srebenica , was because the mighty EU did not want to intervene. Why? France was leaning to the Serbian side while Germany was instead more favourable to the Croatians. Perhaps if NATO would withdraw to Omaha, Juno, Gold and Utah beaches back in Normandy , Putin may feel reassured to rein in his paranoid war machine (as well as some of our more fervent orators on this thread to be right) . 


Edited by tszirmay - March 16 2022 at 19:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:21
Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hussain, Kim Jong, Putin. They never end.

Edited by SteveG - March 16 2022 at 19:26
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:28
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbzV1it1YPY&ab_channel=GlobalNews

The absurdity of Russian authoritarianism 


Edited by tszirmay - March 16 2022 at 19:31
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:30
Approximately four million Ukrainians were starved to death by Stalin. This is an unequivocal fact. You can't gloss it over, you can't quote dead Communist platitudes to make it anything other than genocide. The Ukraine owes Russia nothing. There is no "history" that makes the Ukraine part of Russia other than domination. Ukraine is a sovereign country invaded by a megalomaniacal narcissist. You can vomit out whatever whataboutisms you wish. You can propound gibberish logic regarding the imaginary fears of a paranoid 5'6'' a**hole. But Putin and the Putin apologists on this thread can go f*ck themselves. 

I've asked for this asinine thread to be closed, but I guess things have to get out of hand before that happens. So be it. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:33
Originally posted by tszirmay tszirmay wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbzV1it1YPY&ab_channel=GlobalNews

The absurdity of Russian authoritarianism 
Arrested for holding a blank sheet of paper, what a wonderful police state. I'm sure the Ukrainians are looking forward to all this.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 19:51
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

I hope we do not get anymore of this 'blame the victim' nonsense from the previous page. Reminds me of when people say a rape victim was just 'asking for it'. I find such thinking to be extremely disturbing.

I have no problem if you consider Zelenskij a hero. 

On the other hand, I hope that you and Steve G do not come here yet with the aim of misrepresenting what I have written (as you did here with me), insulting (as Steve has already done to me) by calling me anti-democratic, distorting any reasoned reflection with the aim of closing also this thread.

I would advice you and Steve, if you are unable to refrain from insults or meaningless comparisons like the one you just did, to open your own thread on the war.

I claim my right to say what I think of Zelenskij, that is, that I consider him a dangerous leader, who is campaigning in an offensive campaign to get NATO and Europe into war, causing World War III. I thought he was like that before the war, and now at my eyes he doesn't become a hero of democracy because Ukraine is being invaded by Putin.
And there is no possible comparison with the raped woman who asked for it in what I have written.

Democracy is just that: expressing our political views, whatever they may be. 
Pretend that Zelensky is free from criticism is undemocratic. 

What interests me in this war is precisely to safeguard democracy, which is the first thing that fails with war. With the war begins the censorship, the single thought begins: the bad and the good etc. the complex analyzes are over, everything has to be simplified and cheered.

I am foreign to this logic, and therefore I criticize Europe that sells arms to Ukraine, including Italy (which in its Constitution says that it repudiates war as a tool for resolving conflicts), I criticize the blackout of two Russian sites , Russia Today and Sputnik, because this makes us Europeans less democratic, and less informed, because in order to discover the propaganda of the two fronts, it is also necessary to analyze what the official Russian sources are writing, I criticize the Italian news programs that every evening give space to Zelenskij who punctually tries to terrify us by saying that Putin has a plan to strike Chernobyl without anyone explaining that there is no evidence, and so on.

Fortunately, there are also politicians and intellectuals who do not participate in this war logic where reasoning and analysis are no longer possible.





Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 16 2022 at 19:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 20:03
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

 

I've asked for this asinine thread to be closed, but I guess things have to get out of hand before that happens. So be it. 

Ah, ok, so the will to commit so that this thread is closed is clear. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 20:08
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

 

I've asked for this asinine thread to be closed, but I guess things have to get out of hand before that happens. So be it. 

Ah, ok, so the will to commit so that this thread is closed is clear. 


The only thing that is clear is repetitive inanity, historical butchery, semantic gymnastics and pretzel logic. Prog Archives should not be a place for this nonsense. And it is nonsense. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 20:13
Noam Chomsky - Interview

C.J. Polychroniou: Noam, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has taken most people by surprise, sending shockwaves throughout the world, although there were plenty of indications that Putin had become quite agitated by NATO’s expansion eastward and Washington’s refusal to take seriously his “red line” security demands regarding Ukraine. Why do you think he decided to launch an invasion at this point in time?

Noam Chomsky: Before turning to the question, we should settle a few facts that are uncontestable. The most crucial one is that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is a major war crime, ranking alongside the U.S. invasion of Iraq and the Hitler-Stalin invasion of Poland in September 1939, to take only two salient examples. It always makes sense to seek explanations, but there is no justification, no extenuation.

Turning now to the question, there are plenty of supremely confident outpourings about Putin’s mind. The usual story is that he is caught up in paranoid fantasies, acting alone, surrounded by groveling courtiers of the kind familiar here in what’s left of the Republican Party traipsing to Mar-a-Lago for the Leader’s blessing.

The flood of invective might be accurate, but perhaps other possibilities might be considered. Perhaps Putin meant what he and his associates have been saying loud and clear for years. It might be, for example, that, “Since Putin’s major demand is an assurance that NATO will take no further members, and specifically not Ukraine or Georgia, obviously there would have been no basis for the present crisis if there had been no expansion of the alliance following the end of the Cold War, or if the expansion had occurred in harmony with building a security structure in Europe that included Russia.” The author of these words is former U.S. ambassador to Russia, Jack Matlock, one of the few serious Russia specialists in the U.S. diplomatic corps, writing shortly before the invasion. He goes on to conclude that the crisis “can be easily resolved by the application of common sense…. By any common-sense standard it is in the interest of the United States to promote peace, not conflict. To try to detach Ukraine from Russian influence — the avowed aim of those who agitated for the ‘color revolutions’ — was a fool’s errand, and a dangerous one. Have we so soon forgotten the lesson of the Cuban Missile Crisis?”

Matlock is hardly alone. Much the same conclusions about the underlying issues are reached in the memoirs of CIA head William Burns, another of the few authentic Russia specialists. [Diplomat] George Kennan’s even stronger stand has belatedly been widely quoted, backed as well by former Defense Secretary William Perry, and outside the diplomatic ranks by the noted international relations scholar John Mearsheimer and numerous other figures who could hardly be more mainstream.

None of this is obscure. U.S. internal documents, released by WikiLeaks, reveal that Bush II’s reckless offer to Ukraine to join NATO at once elicited sharp warnings from Russia that the expanding military threat could not be tolerated. Understandably.

We might incidentally take note of the strange concept of “the left” that appears regularly in excoriation of “the left” for insufficient skepticism about the “Kremlin’s line.”

The fact is, to be honest, that we do not know why the decision was made, even whether it was made by Putin alone or by the Russian Security Council in which he plays the leading role. There are, however, some things we do know with fair confidence, including the record reviewed in some detail by those just cited, who have been in high places on the inside of the planning system. In brief, the crisis has been brewing for 25 years as the U.S. contemptuously rejected Russian security concerns, in particular their clear red lines: Georgia and especially Ukraine.

There is good reason to believe that this tragedy could have been avoided, until the last minute. We’ve discussed it before, repeatedly. As to why Putin launched the criminal aggression right now, we can speculate as we like. But the immediate background is not obscure — evaded but not contested.

It’s easy to understand why those suffering from the crime may regard it as an unacceptable indulgence to inquire into why it happened and whether it could have been avoided. Understandable, but mistaken. If we want to respond to the tragedy in ways that will help the victims, and avert still worse catastrophes that loom ahead, it is wise, and necessary, to learn as much as we can about what went wrong and how the course could have been corrected. Heroic gestures may be satisfying. They are not helpful.

As often before, I’m reminded of a lesson I learned long ago. In the late 1960s, I took part in a meeting in Europe with a few representatives of the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam (“Viet Cong,” in U.S. parlance). It was during the brief period of intense opposition to the horrendous U.S. crimes in Indochina. Some young people were so infuriated that they felt that only a violent reaction would be an appropriate response to the unfolding monstrosities: breaking windows on Main Street, bombing an ROTC center. Anything less amounted to complicity in terrible crimes. The Vietnamese saw things very differently. They strongly opposed all such measures. They presented their model of an effective protest: a few women standing in silent prayer at the graves of U.S. soldiers killed in Vietnam. They were not interested in what made American opponents of the war feel righteous and honorable. They wanted to survive.

It’s a lesson I’ve often heard in one or another form from victims of hideous suffering in the Global South, the prime target of imperial violence. One we should take to heart, adapted to circumstances. Today that means an effort to understand why this tragedy occurred and what could have been done to avert it, and to apply these lessons to what comes next.

The question cuts deep. There is no time to review this critically important matter here, but repeatedly the reaction to real or imagined crisis has been to reach for the six-gun rather than the olive branch. It’s almost a reflex, and the consequences have generally been awful — for the traditional victims. It’s always worthwhile to try to understand, to think a step or two ahead about the likely consequences of action or inaction. Truisms of course, but worth reiterating, because they are so easily dismissed in times of justified passion.

The options that remain after the invasion are grim. The least bad is support for the diplomatic options that still exist, in the hope of reaching an outcome not too far from what was very likely achievable a few days ago: Austrian-style neutralization of Ukraine, some version of Minsk II federalism within. Much harder to reach now. And — necessarily — with an escape hatch for Putin, or outcomes will be still more dire for Ukraine and everyone else, perhaps almost unimaginably so.

Very remote from justice. But when has justice prevailed in international affairs? Is it necessary to review the appalling record once again?

Like it or not, the choices are now reduced to an ugly outcome that rewards rather than punishes Putin for the act of aggression — or the strong possibility of terminal war. It may feel satisfying to drive the bear into a corner from which it will lash out in desperation — as it can. Hardly wise.

Meanwhile, we should do anything we can to provide meaningful support for those valiantly defending their homeland against cruel aggressors, for those escaping the horrors, and for the thousands of courageous Russians publicly opposing the crime of their state at great personal risk, a lesson to all of us.

And we should also try to find ways to help a much broader class of victims: all life on Earth. This catastrophe took place at a moment where all of the great powers, indeed all of us, must be working together to control the great scourge of environmental destruction that is already exacting a grim toll, with much worse soon to come unless major efforts are undertaken quickly. To drive home the obvious, the IPCC just released the latest and by far most ominous of its regular assessments of how we are careening to catastrophe.

Meanwhile, the necessary actions are stalled, even driven into reverse, as badly needed resources are devoted to destruction and the world is now on a course to expand the use of fossil fuels, including the most dangerous and conveniently abundant of them, coal.

A more grotesque conjuncture could hardly be devised by a malevolent demon. It can’t be ignored. Every moment counts.

The Russian invasion is in clear violation of Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, which prohibits the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity of another state. Yet Putin sought to offer legal justifications for the invasion during his speech on February 24, and Russia cites Kosovo, Iraq, Libya and Syria as evidence that the United States and its allies violate international law repeatedly. Can you comment on Putin’s legal justifications for the invasion of Ukraine and on the status of international law in the post-Cold War era?

There is nothing to say about Putin’s attempt to offer legal justification for his aggression. Its merit is zero.

Of course, it is true that the U.S. and its allies violate international law without a blink of an eye, but that provides no extenuation for Putin’s crimes. Kosovo, Iraq and Libya did, however, have direct implications for the conflict over Ukraine.

The Iraq invasion was a textbook example of the crimes for which Nazis were hanged at Nuremberg, pure unprovoked aggression. And a punch in Russia’s face.

n the case of Kosovo, NATO aggression (meaning U.S. aggression) was claimed to be “illegal but justified” (for example, by the International Commission on Kosovo chaired by Richard Goldstone) on grounds that the bombing was undertaken to terminate ongoing atrocities. That judgment required reversal of the chronology. The evidence is overwhelming that the flood of atrocities was the consequence of the invasion: predictable, predicted, anticipated. Furthermore, diplomatic options were available, [but] as usual, ignored in favor of violence.

High U.S. officials confirm that it was primarily the bombing of Russian ally Serbia — without even informing them in advance — that reversed Russian efforts to work together with the U.S. somehow to construct a post-Cold War European security order, a reversal accelerated with the invasion of Iraq and the bombing of Libya after Russia agreed not to veto a UN Security Council Resolution that NATO at once violated.

Events have consequences; however, the facts may be concealed within the doctrinal system.

The status of international law did not change in the post-Cold War period, even in words, let alone actions. President Clinton made it clear that the U.S. had no intention of abiding by it. The Clinton Doctrine declared that the U.S. reserves the right to act “unilaterally when necessary,” including “unilateral use of military power” to defend such vital interests as “ensuring uninhibited access to key markets, energy supplies and strategic resources.” His successors as well, and anyone else who can violate the law with impunity.

That’s not to say that international law is of no value. It has a range of applicability, and it is a useful standard in some respects.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 20:26
There is a difference between free speech and expressing political views on one hand and endless propaganda parroting that is obviously obsessive. When I was in high school , my distinguished French literature teacher taught us to avoid repeating "I " constantly, as there is a softer alternative in both grammar and vocabulary than one's eternal ego massage. It hit home when he started deducting points for each overuse of "I" . It worked ...for some. LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 20:35
putin's army bombs a residential building.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 20:40
Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Noam Chomsky - Interview

C.J. Polychroniou: Noam, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has taken most people by surprise, sending shockwaves throughout the world, although there were plenty of indications that Putin had become quite agitated by NATO’s expansion eastward and Washington’s refusal to take seriously his “red line” security demands regarding Ukraine. Why do you think he decided to launch an invasion at this point in time?

Noam Chomsky: Before turning to the question, we should settle a few facts that are uncontestable. The most crucial one is that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is a major war crime, ranking alongside the U.S. invasion of Iraq and the Hitler-Stalin invasion of Poland in September 1939, to take only two salient examples. It always makes sense to seek explanations, but there is no justification, no extenuation.

Turning now to the question, there are plenty of supremely confident outpourings about Putin’s mind. The usual story is that he is caught up in paranoid fantasies, acting alone, surrounded by groveling courtiers of the kind familiar here in what’s left of the Republican Party traipsing to Mar-a-Lago for the Leader’s blessing.

The flood of invective might be accurate, but perhaps other possibilities might be considered. Perhaps Putin meant what he and his associates have been saying loud and clear for years. It might be, for example, that, “Since Putin’s major demand is an assurance that NATO will take no further members, and specifically not Ukraine or Georgia, obviously there would have been no basis for the present crisis if there had been no expansion of the alliance following the end of the Cold War, or if the expansion had occurred in harmony with building a security structure in Europe that included Russia.” The author of these words is former U.S. ambassador to Russia, Jack Matlock, one of the few serious Russia specialists in the U.S. diplomatic corps, writing shortly before the invasion. He goes on to conclude that the crisis “can be easily resolved by the application of common sense…. By any common-sense standard it is in the interest of the United States to promote peace, not conflict. To try to detach Ukraine from Russian influence — the avowed aim of those who agitated for the ‘color revolutions’ — was a fool’s errand, and a dangerous one. Have we so soon forgotten the lesson of the Cuban Missile Crisis?”

Matlock is hardly alone. Much the same conclusions about the underlying issues are reached in the memoirs of CIA head William Burns, another of the few authentic Russia specialists. [Diplomat] George Kennan’s even stronger stand has belatedly been widely quoted, backed as well by former Defense Secretary William Perry, and outside the diplomatic ranks by the noted international relations scholar John Mearsheimer and numerous other figures who could hardly be more mainstream.

None of this is obscure. U.S. internal documents, released by WikiLeaks, reveal that Bush II’s reckless offer to Ukraine to join NATO at once elicited sharp warnings from Russia that the expanding military threat could not be tolerated. Understandably.

We might incidentally take note of the strange concept of “the left” that appears regularly in excoriation of “the left” for insufficient skepticism about the “Kremlin’s line.”

The fact is, to be honest, that we do not know why the decision was made, even whether it was made by Putin alone or by the Russian Security Council in which he plays the leading role. There are, however, some things we do know with fair confidence, including the record reviewed in some detail by those just cited, who have been in high places on the inside of the planning system. In brief, the crisis has been brewing for 25 years as the U.S. contemptuously rejected Russian security concerns, in particular their clear red lines: Georgia and especially Ukraine.

There is good reason to believe that this tragedy could have been avoided, until the last minute. We’ve discussed it before, repeatedly. As to why Putin launched the criminal aggression right now, we can speculate as we like. But the immediate background is not obscure — evaded but not contested.

It’s easy to understand why those suffering from the crime may regard it as an unacceptable indulgence to inquire into why it happened and whether it could have been avoided. Understandable, but mistaken. If we want to respond to the tragedy in ways that will help the victims, and avert still worse catastrophes that loom ahead, it is wise, and necessary, to learn as much as we can about what went wrong and how the course could have been corrected. Heroic gestures may be satisfying. They are not helpful.

As often before, I’m reminded of a lesson I learned long ago. In the late 1960s, I took part in a meeting in Europe with a few representatives of the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam (“Viet Cong,” in U.S. parlance). It was during the brief period of intense opposition to the horrendous U.S. crimes in Indochina. Some young people were so infuriated that they felt that only a violent reaction would be an appropriate response to the unfolding monstrosities: breaking windows on Main Street, bombing an ROTC center. Anything less amounted to complicity in terrible crimes. The Vietnamese saw things very differently. They strongly opposed all such measures. They presented their model of an effective protest: a few women standing in silent prayer at the graves of U.S. soldiers killed in Vietnam. They were not interested in what made American opponents of the war feel righteous and honorable. They wanted to survive.

It’s a lesson I’ve often heard in one or another form from victims of hideous suffering in the Global South, the prime target of imperial violence. One we should take to heart, adapted to circumstances. Today that means an effort to understand why this tragedy occurred and what could have been done to avert it, and to apply these lessons to what comes next.

The question cuts deep. There is no time to review this critically important matter here, but repeatedly the reaction to real or imagined crisis has been to reach for the six-gun rather than the olive branch. It’s almost a reflex, and the consequences have generally been awful — for the traditional victims. It’s always worthwhile to try to understand, to think a step or two ahead about the likely consequences of action or inaction. Truisms of course, but worth reiterating, because they are so easily dismissed in times of justified passion.

The options that remain after the invasion are grim. The least bad is support for the diplomatic options that still exist, in the hope of reaching an outcome not too far from what was very likely achievable a few days ago: Austrian-style neutralization of Ukraine, some version of Minsk II federalism within. Much harder to reach now. And — necessarily — with an escape hatch for Putin, or outcomes will be still more dire for Ukraine and everyone else, perhaps almost unimaginably so.

Very remote from justice. But when has justice prevailed in international affairs? Is it necessary to review the appalling record once again?

Like it or not, the choices are now reduced to an ugly outcome that rewards rather than punishes Putin for the act of aggression — or the strong possibility of terminal war. It may feel satisfying to drive the bear into a corner from which it will lash out in desperation — as it can. Hardly wise.

Meanwhile, we should do anything we can to provide meaningful support for those valiantly defending their homeland against cruel aggressors, for those escaping the horrors, and for the thousands of courageous Russians publicly opposing the crime of their state at great personal risk, a lesson to all of us.

And we should also try to find ways to help a much broader class of victims: all life on Earth. This catastrophe took place at a moment where all of the great powers, indeed all of us, must be working together to control the great scourge of environmental destruction that is already exacting a grim toll, with much worse soon to come unless major efforts are undertaken quickly. To drive home the obvious, the IPCC just released the latest and by far most ominous of its regular assessments of how we are careening to catastrophe.

Meanwhile, the necessary actions are stalled, even driven into reverse, as badly needed resources are devoted to destruction and the world is now on a course to expand the use of fossil fuels, including the most dangerous and conveniently abundant of them, coal.

A more grotesque conjuncture could hardly be devised by a malevolent demon. It can’t be ignored. Every moment counts.

The Russian invasion is in clear violation of Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, which prohibits the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity of another state. Yet Putin sought to offer legal justifications for the invasion during his speech on February 24, and Russia cites Kosovo, Iraq, Libya and Syria as evidence that the United States and its allies violate international law repeatedly. Can you comment on Putin’s legal justifications for the invasion of Ukraine and on the status of international law in the post-Cold War era?

There is nothing to say about Putin’s attempt to offer legal justification for his aggression. Its merit is zero.

Of course, it is true that the U.S. and its allies violate international law without a blink of an eye, but that provides no extenuation for Putin’s crimes. Kosovo, Iraq and Libya did, however, have direct implications for the conflict over Ukraine.

The Iraq invasion was a textbook example of the crimes for which Nazis were hanged at Nuremberg, pure unprovoked aggression. And a punch in Russia’s face.

n the case of Kosovo, NATO aggression (meaning U.S. aggression) was claimed to be “illegal but justified” (for example, by the International Commission on Kosovo chaired by Richard Goldstone) on grounds that the bombing was undertaken to terminate ongoing atrocities. That judgment required reversal of the chronology. The evidence is overwhelming that the flood of atrocities was the consequence of the invasion: predictable, predicted, anticipated. Furthermore, diplomatic options were available, [but] as usual, ignored in favor of violence.

High U.S. officials confirm that it was primarily the bombing of Russian ally Serbia — without even informing them in advance — that reversed Russian efforts to work together with the U.S. somehow to construct a post-Cold War European security order, a reversal accelerated with the invasion of Iraq and the bombing of Libya after Russia agreed not to veto a UN Security Council Resolution that NATO at once violated.

Events have consequences; however, the facts may be concealed within the doctrinal system.

The status of international law did not change in the post-Cold War period, even in words, let alone actions. President Clinton made it clear that the U.S. had no intention of abiding by it. The Clinton Doctrine declared that the U.S. reserves the right to act “unilaterally when necessary,” including “unilateral use of military power” to defend such vital interests as “ensuring uninhibited access to key markets, energy supplies and strategic resources.” His successors as well, and anyone else who can violate the law with impunity.

That’s not to say that international law is of no value. It has a range of applicability, and it is a useful standard in some respects.


Well Chomsky is wrong then. Srebenica massacre occurred in July 1995 , in retaliation of the UN troops being threatened and in fact shot at by Bosnian Serb soldiers , NATO (since the EU was unable and unwilling to intervene) bombed Bosnian Serb targets in RETALIATION. This was Bosnia (I was nearby at the time, so I know if it was true or not ) , while Kosovo action brought upon the bombing of Serbian targets including Belgrade. This was in May-June 1999. You cannot change dates to fit your /his arguments. That is propaganda . Ouch There was NO reversal of chronology , unless there is a dyslexic situation of some kind, though I doubt it. 


Edited by tszirmay - March 16 2022 at 20:42
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2022 at 20:50
I don't recall using the word 'hero' and that's because I didn't use that word, but I do know that if someone is fighting for their life, my sympathy goes to the person fighting for his life, not the person trying to kill them.

Likewise, when a woman is raped, my sympathy goes to the woman who was raped, not the rapist.
Speaking of rape, just wait until putin's ground troops start moving in.
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