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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10732 |
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Ten citizens standing in a bread line gunned down by putin's army.
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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tszirmay ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
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When a loud mouth little fascist oligarch wannabe, with his playboy looks, starts yelling at a Russian officer, you wonder why he doesn't shave his head, take his shoe off and start banging it on the podium, saying "We Will bury you" (the Ukrainians). Despicable......
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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tszirmay ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
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Word! Well said!
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10732 |
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10732 |
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I hope we do not get anymore of this 'blame the victim' nonsense from the previous page. Reminds me of when people say a rape victim was just 'asking for it'. I find such thinking to be extremely disturbing.
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tszirmay ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
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In Putin's mind: " Russia without Ukraine is a country, but Russia with Ukraine is an empire" . But in Russia, 110 people own 35% of the wealth , the most unequal country in the world , except for North Korea where 1 person owns 100% of the wealth. The 110 want an empire again. The real Putin emerged in February 2007 at the Munich conference. What he said then is what he is doing now, just like with Mein Kampf.......He is not a hypocrite but he is a professional liar (as per his career in Dresden) .
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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tszirmay ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
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And of course what is never mentioned is that Ukraine asked to be a member of NATO and not the other way around. Poland and Hungary asked for membership hours after getting rid of the Warsaw Pact troops that went back to Russia in 1991. Proof in Ukraine's case: Both France and Germany vetoed (I repeat VETOED) their candidacy on more than one occasion. One surely can't blame the Yanks for that?
Furthermore, NATO bombing of Serbia was , as I had stated earlier in another fossilized thread, began 4 years after Srebenica , was because the mighty EU did not want to intervene. Why? France was leaning to the Serbian side while Germany was instead more favourable to the Croatians. Perhaps if NATO would withdraw to Omaha, Juno, Gold and Utah beaches back in Normandy , Putin may feel reassured to rein in his paranoid war machine (as well as some of our more fervent orators on this thread to be right) .
Edited by tszirmay - March 16 2022 at 19:22 |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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SteveG ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20617 |
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Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hussain, Kim Jong, Putin. They never end.
Edited by SteveG - March 16 2022 at 19:26 |
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tszirmay ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbzV1it1YPY&ab_channel=GlobalNews
The absurdity of Russian authoritarianism Edited by tszirmay - March 16 2022 at 19:31 |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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The Dark Elf ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13339 |
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Approximately four million Ukrainians were starved to death by Stalin. This is an unequivocal fact. You can't gloss it over, you can't quote dead Communist platitudes to make it anything other than genocide. The Ukraine owes Russia nothing. There is no "history" that makes the Ukraine part of Russia other than domination. Ukraine is a sovereign country invaded by a megalomaniacal narcissist. You can vomit out whatever whataboutisms you wish. You can propound gibberish logic regarding the imaginary fears of a paranoid 5'6'' a**hole. But Putin and the Putin apologists on this thread can go f*ck themselves.
I've asked for this asinine thread to be closed, but I guess things have to get out of hand before that happens. So be it.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10732 |
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jamesbaldwin ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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I have no problem if you consider Zelenskij a hero. On the other hand, I hope that you and Steve G do not come here yet with the aim of misrepresenting what I have written (as you did here with me), insulting (as Steve has already done to me) by calling me anti-democratic, distorting any reasoned reflection with the aim of closing also this thread. I would advice you and Steve, if you are unable to refrain from insults or meaningless comparisons like the one you just did, to open your own thread on the war. I claim my right to say what I think of Zelenskij, that is, that I consider him a dangerous leader, who is campaigning in an offensive campaign to get NATO and Europe into war, causing World War III. I thought he was like that before the war, and now at my eyes he doesn't become a hero of democracy because Ukraine is being invaded by Putin. And there is no possible comparison with the raped woman who asked for it in what I have written. Democracy is just that: expressing our political views, whatever they may be. Pretend that Zelensky is free from criticism is undemocratic. What interests me in this war is precisely to safeguard democracy, which is the first thing that fails with war. With the war begins the censorship, the single thought begins: the bad and the good etc. the complex analyzes are over, everything has to be simplified and cheered. I am foreign to this logic, and therefore I criticize Europe that sells arms to Ukraine, including Italy (which in its Constitution says that it repudiates war as a tool for resolving conflicts), I criticize the blackout of two Russian sites , Russia Today and Sputnik, because this makes us Europeans less democratic, and less informed, because in order to discover the propaganda of the two fronts, it is also necessary to analyze what the official Russian sources are writing, I criticize the Italian news programs that every evening give space to Zelenskij who punctually tries to terrify us by saying that Putin has a plan to strike Chernobyl without anyone explaining that there is no evidence, and so on. Fortunately, there are also politicians and intellectuals who do not participate in this war logic where reasoning and analysis are no longer possible. Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 16 2022 at 19:53 |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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jamesbaldwin ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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Ah, ok, so the will to commit so that this thread is closed is clear. |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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The Dark Elf ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13339 |
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The only thing that is clear is repetitive inanity, historical butchery, semantic gymnastics and pretzel logic. Prog Archives should not be a place for this nonsense. And it is nonsense.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
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jamesbaldwin ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: September 25 2015 Location: Milano Status: Offline Points: 6052 |
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Noam Chomsky - Interview Noam Chomsky: Before turning to the question, we should settle a few facts that are uncontestable. The most crucial one is that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is a major war crime, ranking alongside the U.S. invasion of Iraq and the Hitler-Stalin invasion of Poland in September 1939, to take only two salient examples. It always makes sense to seek explanations, but there is no justification, no extenuation. Turning now to the question, there are plenty of supremely confident outpourings about Putin’s mind. The usual story is that he is caught up in paranoid fantasies, acting alone, surrounded by groveling courtiers of the kind familiar here in what’s left of the Republican Party traipsing to Mar-a-Lago for the Leader’s blessing. The flood of invective might be accurate, but perhaps other possibilities might be considered. Perhaps Putin meant what he and his associates have been saying loud and clear for years. It might be, for example, that, “Since Putin’s major demand is an assurance that NATO will take no further members, and specifically not Ukraine or Georgia, obviously there would have been no basis for the present crisis if there had been no expansion of the alliance following the end of the Cold War, or if the expansion had occurred in harmony with building a security structure in Europe that included Russia.” The author of these words is former U.S. ambassador to Russia, Jack Matlock, one of the few serious Russia specialists in the U.S. diplomatic corps, writing shortly before the invasion. He goes on to conclude that the crisis “can be easily resolved by the application of common sense…. By any common-sense standard it is in the interest of the United States to promote peace, not conflict. To try to detach Ukraine from Russian influence — the avowed aim of those who agitated for the ‘color revolutions’ — was a fool’s errand, and a dangerous one. Have we so soon forgotten the lesson of the Cuban Missile Crisis?” Matlock is hardly alone. Much the same conclusions about the underlying issues are reached in the memoirs of CIA head William Burns, another of the few authentic Russia specialists. [Diplomat] George Kennan’s even stronger stand has belatedly been widely quoted, backed as well by former Defense Secretary William Perry, and outside the diplomatic ranks by the noted international relations scholar John Mearsheimer and numerous other figures who could hardly be more mainstream. None of this is obscure. U.S. internal documents, released by WikiLeaks, reveal that Bush II’s reckless offer to Ukraine to join NATO at once elicited sharp warnings from Russia that the expanding military threat could not be tolerated. Understandably. We might incidentally take note of the strange concept of “the left” that appears regularly in excoriation of “the left” for insufficient skepticism about the “Kremlin’s line.” The fact is, to be honest, that we do not know why the decision was made, even whether it was made by Putin alone or by the Russian Security Council in which he plays the leading role. There are, however, some things we do know with fair confidence, including the record reviewed in some detail by those just cited, who have been in high places on the inside of the planning system. In brief, the crisis has been brewing for 25 years as the U.S. contemptuously rejected Russian security concerns, in particular their clear red lines: Georgia and especially Ukraine. There is good reason to believe that this tragedy could have been avoided, until the last minute. We’ve discussed it before, repeatedly. As to why Putin launched the criminal aggression right now, we can speculate as we like. But the immediate background is not obscure — evaded but not contested. It’s easy to understand why those suffering from the crime may regard it as an unacceptable indulgence to inquire into why it happened and whether it could have been avoided. Understandable, but mistaken. If we want to respond to the tragedy in ways that will help the victims, and avert still worse catastrophes that loom ahead, it is wise, and necessary, to learn as much as we can about what went wrong and how the course could have been corrected. Heroic gestures may be satisfying. They are not helpful. As often before, I’m reminded of a lesson I learned long ago. In the late 1960s, I took part in a meeting in Europe with a few representatives of the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam (“Viet Cong,” in U.S. parlance). It was during the brief period of intense opposition to the horrendous U.S. crimes in Indochina. Some young people were so infuriated that they felt that only a violent reaction would be an appropriate response to the unfolding monstrosities: breaking windows on Main Street, bombing an ROTC center. Anything less amounted to complicity in terrible crimes. The Vietnamese saw things very differently. They strongly opposed all such measures. They presented their model of an effective protest: a few women standing in silent prayer at the graves of U.S. soldiers killed in Vietnam. They were not interested in what made American opponents of the war feel righteous and honorable. They wanted to survive. It’s a lesson I’ve often heard in one or another form from victims of hideous suffering in the Global South, the prime target of imperial violence. One we should take to heart, adapted to circumstances. Today that means an effort to understand why this tragedy occurred and what could have been done to avert it, and to apply these lessons to what comes next. The question cuts deep. There is no time to review this critically important matter here, but repeatedly the reaction to real or imagined crisis has been to reach for the six-gun rather than the olive branch. It’s almost a reflex, and the consequences have generally been awful — for the traditional victims. It’s always worthwhile to try to understand, to think a step or two ahead about the likely consequences of action or inaction. Truisms of course, but worth reiterating, because they are so easily dismissed in times of justified passion. The options that remain after the invasion are grim. The least bad is support for the diplomatic options that still exist, in the hope of reaching an outcome not too far from what was very likely achievable a few days ago: Austrian-style neutralization of Ukraine, some version of Minsk II federalism within. Much harder to reach now. And — necessarily — with an escape hatch for Putin, or outcomes will be still more dire for Ukraine and everyone else, perhaps almost unimaginably so. Very remote from justice. But when has justice prevailed in international affairs? Is it necessary to review the appalling record once again? Like it or not, the choices are now reduced to an ugly outcome that rewards rather than punishes Putin for the act of aggression — or the strong possibility of terminal war. It may feel satisfying to drive the bear into a corner from which it will lash out in desperation — as it can. Hardly wise. Meanwhile, we should do anything we can to provide meaningful support for those valiantly defending their homeland against cruel aggressors, for those escaping the horrors, and for the thousands of courageous Russians publicly opposing the crime of their state at great personal risk, a lesson to all of us. And we should also try to find ways to help a much broader class of victims: all life on Earth. This catastrophe took place at a moment where all of the great powers, indeed all of us, must be working together to control the great scourge of environmental destruction that is already exacting a grim toll, with much worse soon to come unless major efforts are undertaken quickly. To drive home the obvious, the IPCC just released the latest and by far most ominous of its regular assessments of how we are careening to catastrophe. Meanwhile, the necessary actions are stalled, even driven into reverse, as badly needed resources are devoted to destruction and the world is now on a course to expand the use of fossil fuels, including the most dangerous and conveniently abundant of them, coal. A more grotesque conjuncture could hardly be devised by a malevolent demon. It can’t be ignored. Every moment counts. The Russian invasion is in clear violation of Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, which prohibits the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity of another state. Yet Putin sought to offer legal justifications for the invasion during his speech on February 24, and Russia cites Kosovo, Iraq, Libya and Syria as evidence that the United States and its allies violate international law repeatedly. Can you comment on Putin’s legal justifications for the invasion of Ukraine and on the status of international law in the post-Cold War era? There is nothing to say about Putin’s attempt to offer legal justification for his aggression. Its merit is zero. Of course, it is true that the U.S. and its allies violate international law without a blink of an eye, but that provides no extenuation for Putin’s crimes. Kosovo, Iraq and Libya did, however, have direct implications for the conflict over Ukraine. The Iraq invasion was a textbook example of the crimes for which Nazis were hanged at Nuremberg, pure unprovoked aggression. And a punch in Russia’s face. n the case of Kosovo, NATO aggression (meaning U.S. aggression) was claimed to be “illegal but justified” (for example, by the International Commission on Kosovo chaired by Richard Goldstone) on grounds that the bombing was undertaken to terminate ongoing atrocities. That judgment required reversal of the chronology. The evidence is overwhelming that the flood of atrocities was the consequence of the invasion: predictable, predicted, anticipated. Furthermore, diplomatic options were available, [but] as usual, ignored in favor of violence. High U.S. officials confirm that it was primarily the bombing of Russian ally Serbia — without even informing them in advance — that reversed Russian efforts to work together with the U.S. somehow to construct a post-Cold War European security order, a reversal accelerated with the invasion of Iraq and the bombing of Libya after Russia agreed not to veto a UN Security Council Resolution that NATO at once violated. Events have consequences; however, the facts may be concealed within the doctrinal system. The status of international law did not change in the post-Cold War period, even in words, let alone actions. President Clinton made it clear that the U.S. had no intention of abiding by it. The Clinton Doctrine declared that the U.S. reserves the right to act “unilaterally when necessary,” including “unilateral use of military power” to defend such vital interests as “ensuring uninhibited access to key markets, energy supplies and strategic resources.” His successors as well, and anyone else who can violate the law with impunity. That’s not to say that international law is of no value. It has a range of applicability, and it is a useful standard in some respects. |
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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tszirmay ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
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There is a difference between free speech and expressing political views on one hand and endless propaganda parroting that is obviously obsessive. When I was in high school , my distinguished French literature teacher taught us to avoid repeating "I " constantly, as there is a softer alternative in both grammar and vocabulary than one's eternal ego massage. It hit home when he started deducting points for each overuse of "I" . It worked ...for some.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10732 |
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putin's army bombs a residential building.
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tszirmay ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
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Well Chomsky is wrong then. Srebenica massacre occurred in July 1995 , in retaliation of the UN troops being threatened and in fact shot at by Bosnian Serb soldiers , NATO (since the EU was unable and unwilling to intervene) bombed Bosnian Serb targets in RETALIATION. This was Bosnia (I was nearby at the time, so I know if it was true or not ) , while Kosovo action brought upon the bombing of Serbian targets including Belgrade. This was in May-June 1999. You cannot change dates to fit your /his arguments. That is propaganda .
![]() Edited by tszirmay - March 16 2022 at 20:42 |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10732 |
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I don't recall using the word 'hero' and that's because I didn't use that word, but I do know that if someone is fighting for their life, my sympathy goes to the person fighting for his life, not the person trying to kill them.
Likewise, when a woman is raped, my sympathy goes to the woman who was raped, not the rapist. Speaking of rape, just wait until putin's ground troops start moving in. |
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