Author |
Topic Search Topic Options
|
tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
|
Posted: March 16 2022 at 20:57 |
Easy Money wrote:
I don't recall using the word 'hero' and that's because I didn't use that word, but I do know that if someone is fighting for their life, my sympathy goes to the person fighting for his life, not the person trying to kill them.
Likewise, when a woman is raped, my sympathy goes to the woman who was raped, not the rapist. Speaking of rape, just wait until putin's ground troops start moving in. |
Correct, and since Putin believes the Ukrainians are "brothers", it will be incest-based rape. Please before someone loses it, the rape of women in the Soviet zone during WW2 is EXTREMELY well-documented , even by Soviet accounts. Its sadly, a fact of history.
|
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
|
 |
jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
Status: Offline
Points: 6052
|
Posted: March 16 2022 at 21:10 |
tszirmay wrote:
There is a difference between free speech and expressing political views on one hand and endless propaganda parroting that is obviously obsessive. |
I've writen:
In my opinion Zelenskij is proving to be an unreliable and dangerous politician because every day he sends false news (Chernobyl), creates provocative videos (Paris bombed), asks for NATO to enter the war, offends Europe which should show pride and go to war etc.
This is a political opinion. It is easy to understand. But your anger (hatred? what?) at me prevents you from understanding it, and so it seems that you cannot distinguish political opinion from propaganda.
You can try to distort what I say in many other ways, but you can never make an intelligent speech that shows that I do propaganda: I don't I do it.
Your problem with me is just this: I do not align with the anti-Russian war propaganda that is rampant in the West. And by not lining up, you accuse me of doing anti-Ukrainian propaganda.
However, unless you and others reach the goal of having this thread shut down, I will no longer respond to your allegations, and will continue to post my own or others' opinions.
In Italy, for example, the discussion on whether or not to send weapons to Ukraine is heated, and there are nonviolent pacifist positions that I think are very interesting.
|
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
|
 |
Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10732
|
Posted: March 16 2022 at 21:12 |
tszirmay wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
I don't recall using the word 'hero' and that's because I didn't use that word, but I do know that if someone is fighting for their life, my sympathy goes to the person fighting for his life, not the person trying to kill them.
Likewise, when a woman is raped, my sympathy goes to the woman who was raped, not the rapist. Speaking of rape, just wait until putin's ground troops start moving in. |
Correct, and since Putin believes the Ukrainians are "brothers", it will be incest-based rape. Please before someone loses it, the rape of women in the Soviet zone during WW2 is EXTREMELY well-documented , even by Soviet accounts. Its sadly, a fact of history. | Oh rape is standard procedure in a war.
|
 |
tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6673
|
Posted: March 16 2022 at 21:41 |
jamesbaldwin wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
There is a difference between free speech and expressing political views on one hand and endless propaganda parroting that is obviously obsessive. |
I've writen:
In my opinion Zelenskij is proving to be an unreliable and dangerous politician because every day he sends false news (Chernobyl), creates provocative videos (Paris bombed), asks for NATO to enter the war, offends Europe which should show pride and go to war etc.
This is a political opinion. It is easy to understand. But your anger (hatred? what?) at me prevents you from understanding it, and so it seems that you cannot distinguish political opinion from propaganda.
You can try to distort what I say in many other ways, but you can never make an intelligent speech that shows that I do propaganda: I don't I do it.
Your problem with me is just this: I do not align with the anti-Russian war propaganda that is rampant in the West. And by not lining up, you accuse me of doing anti-Ukrainian propaganda.
However, unless you and others reach the goal of having this thread shut down, I will no longer respond to your allegations, and will continue to post my own or others' opinions.
In Italy, for example, the discussion on whether or not to send weapons to Ukraine is heated, and there are nonviolent pacifist positions that I think are very interesting.
|
You need sleep , my poor man, you are ranting.... 1- What hatred? and what anger? I feel sorry for you  not sleeping 2- I have no problem with you, I have plenty of crazy Milanese friends, I got married there before COVID but I do not live in a house of mirrors where I get to use "I" all the time but you must admit , you play the victim card quite well, which in view of the bravery displayed in Ukraine is even more tragic. 3-as per the blank paper arrest video, it is anti-Putin and not anti-Russia . I have Russian friends and co-workers . The Western media is calling this PUTIN's WAR ......Per favore, lascia ..... 4- Your facts are erroneous , on numerous levels, while your opinions are entirely free to be expressed and SADLY, repeated ad nauseam , a definite prerequisite for propaganda. But don't expect applause, I am not your student . I happen to be a fact checker, I have no opinions. NONE. Politicians are all garbage. BUT your anti-NATO stand is OBSESSIVE..... 5- Please, be a man and stop making yourself a bullied victim, it degrades your obvious intelligence. Buona notte
Edited by tszirmay - March 16 2022 at 21:44
|
I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
|
 |
NutterAlert
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 07 2005
Location: In transition
Status: Offline
Points: 2808
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 04:13 |
jamesbaldwin wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
There is a difference between free speech and expressing political views on one hand and endless propaganda parroting that is obviously obsessive. |
I've writen:
In my opinion Zelenskij is proving to be an unreliable and dangerous politician because every day he sends false news (Chernobyl), creates provocative videos (Paris bombed), asks for NATO to enter the war, offends Europe which should show pride and go to war etc.
This is a political opinion. It is easy to understand. But your anger (hatred? what?) at me prevents you from understanding it, and so it seems that you cannot distinguish political opinion from propaganda.
You can try to distort what I say in many other ways, but you can never make an intelligent speech that shows that I do propaganda: I don't I do it.
Your problem with me is just this: I do not align with the anti-Russian war propaganda that is rampant in the West. And by not lining up, you accuse me of doing anti-Ukrainian propaganda.
However, unless you and others reach the goal of having this thread shut down, I will no longer respond to your allegations, and will continue to post my own or others' opinions.
In Italy, for example, the discussion on whether or not to send weapons to Ukraine is heated, and there are nonviolent pacifist positions that I think are very interesting.
|
Italian tanks won't help Ukraine. in WWII they had one forward gear and 18 reverse gears.
|
Proud to be an un-banned member since 2005
|
 |
SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 05:10 |
NutterAlert wrote:
jamesbaldwin wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
There is a difference between free speech and expressing political views on one hand and endless propaganda parroting that is obviously obsessive. |
I've writen:
In my opinion Zelenskij is proving to be an unreliable and dangerous politician because every day he sends false news (Chernobyl), creates provocative videos (Paris bombed), asks for NATO to enter the war, offends Europe which should show pride and go to war etc.
This is a political opinion. It is easy to understand. But your anger (hatred? what?) at me prevents you from understanding it, and so it seems that you cannot distinguish political opinion from propaganda.
You can try to distort what I say in many other ways, but you can never make an intelligent speech that shows that I do propaganda: I don't I do it.
Your problem with me is just this: I do not align with the anti-Russian war propaganda that is rampant in the West. And by not lining up, you accuse me of doing anti-Ukrainian propaganda.
However, unless you and others reach the goal of having this thread shut down, I will no longer respond to your allegations, and will continue to post my own or others' opinions.
In Italy, for example, the discussion on whether or not to send weapons to Ukraine is heated, and there are nonviolent pacifist positions that I think are very interesting.
|
Italian tanks won't help Ukraine. in WWII they had one forward gear and 18 reverse gears. |
|
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
|
 |
SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 05:17 |
jamesbaldwin wrote:
Noam Chomsky - Interview
C.J. Polychroniou: Noam, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has taken most people by surprise, sending shockwaves throughout the world, although there were plenty of indications that Putin had become quite agitated by NATO’s expansion eastward and Washington’s refusal to take seriously his “red line” security demands regarding Ukraine. Why do you think he decided to launch an invasion at this point in time?Noam Chomsky: Before turning to the question, we should settle a few facts that are uncontestable. The most crucial one is that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is a major war crime, ranking alongside the U.S. invasion of Iraq and the Hitler-Stalin invasion of Poland in September 1939, to take only two salient examples. It always makes sense to seek explanations, but there is no justification, no extenuation. Turning now to the question, there are plenty of supremely confident outpourings about Putin’s mind. The usual story is that he is caught up in paranoid fantasies, acting alone, surrounded by groveling courtiers of the kind familiar here in what’s left of the Republican Party traipsing to Mar-a-Lago for the Leader’s blessing. The flood of invective might be accurate, but perhaps other possibilities might be considered. Perhaps Putin meant what he and his associates have been saying loud and clear for years. It might be, for example, that, “Since Putin’s major demand is an assurance that NATO will take no further members, and specifically not Ukraine or Georgia, obviously there would have been no basis for the present crisis if there had been no expansion of the alliance following the end of the Cold War, or if the expansion had occurred in harmony with building a security structure in Europe that included Russia.” The author of these words is former U.S. ambassador to Russia, Jack Matlock, one of the few serious Russia specialists in the U.S. diplomatic corps, writing shortly before the invasion. He goes on to conclude that the crisis “can be easily resolved by the application of common sense…. By any common-sense standard it is in the interest of the United States to promote peace, not conflict. To try to detach Ukraine from Russian influence — the avowed aim of those who agitated for the ‘color revolutions’ — was a fool’s errand, and a dangerous one. Have we so soon forgotten the lesson of the Cuban Missile Crisis?” Matlock is hardly alone. Much the same conclusions about the underlying issues are reached in the memoirs of CIA head William Burns, another of the few authentic Russia specialists. [Diplomat] George Kennan’s even stronger stand has belatedly been widely quoted, backed as well by former Defense Secretary William Perry, and outside the diplomatic ranks by the noted international relations scholar John Mearsheimer and numerous other figures who could hardly be more mainstream. None of this is obscure. U.S. internal documents, released by WikiLeaks, reveal that Bush II’s reckless offer to Ukraine to join NATO at once elicited sharp warnings from Russia that the expanding military threat could not be tolerated. Understandably. We might incidentally take note of the strange concept of “the left” that appears regularly in excoriation of “the left” for insufficient skepticism about the “Kremlin’s line.” The fact is, to be honest, that we do not know why the decision was made, even whether it was made by Putin alone or by the Russian Security Council in which he plays the leading role. There are, however, some things we do know with fair confidence, including the record reviewed in some detail by those just cited, who have been in high places on the inside of the planning system. In brief, the crisis has been brewing for 25 years as the U.S. contemptuously rejected Russian security concerns, in particular their clear red lines: Georgia and especially Ukraine. There is good reason to believe that this tragedy could have been avoided, until the last minute. We’ve discussed it before, repeatedly. As to why Putin launched the criminal aggression right now, we can speculate as we like. But the immediate background is not obscure — evaded but not contested. It’s easy to understand why those suffering from the crime may regard it as an unacceptable indulgence to inquire into why it happened and whether it could have been avoided. Understandable, but mistaken. If we want to respond to the tragedy in ways that will help the victims, and avert still worse catastrophes that loom ahead, it is wise, and necessary, to learn as much as we can about what went wrong and how the course could have been corrected. Heroic gestures may be satisfying. They are not helpful. As often before, I’m reminded of a lesson I learned long ago. In the late 1960s, I took part in a meeting in Europe with a few representatives of the National Liberation Front of South Vietnam (“Viet Cong,” in U.S. parlance). It was during the brief period of intense opposition to the horrendous U.S. crimes in Indochina. Some young people were so infuriated that they felt that only a violent reaction would be an appropriate response to the unfolding monstrosities: breaking windows on Main Street, bombing an ROTC center. Anything less amounted to complicity in terrible crimes. The Vietnamese saw things very differently. They strongly opposed all such measures. They presented their model of an effective protest: a few women standing in silent prayer at the graves of U.S. soldiers killed in Vietnam. They were not interested in what made American opponents of the war feel righteous and honorable. They wanted to survive. It’s a lesson I’ve often heard in one or another form from victims of hideous suffering in the Global South, the prime target of imperial violence. One we should take to heart, adapted to circumstances. Today that means an effort to understand why this tragedy occurred and what could have been done to avert it, and to apply these lessons to what comes next. The question cuts deep. There is no time to review this critically important matter here, but repeatedly the reaction to real or imagined crisis has been to reach for the six-gun rather than the olive branch. It’s almost a reflex, and the consequences have generally been awful — for the traditional victims. It’s always worthwhile to try to understand, to think a step or two ahead about the likely consequences of action or inaction. Truisms of course, but worth reiterating, because they are so easily dismissed in times of justified passion. The options that remain after the invasion are grim. The least bad is support for the diplomatic options that still exist, in the hope of reaching an outcome not too far from what was very likely achievable a few days ago: Austrian-style neutralization of Ukraine, some version of Minsk II federalism within. Much harder to reach now. And — necessarily — with an escape hatch for Putin, or outcomes will be still more dire for Ukraine and everyone else, perhaps almost unimaginably so. Very remote from justice. But when has justice prevailed in international affairs? Is it necessary to review the appalling record once again? Like it or not, the choices are now reduced to an ugly outcome that rewards rather than punishes Putin for the act of aggression — or the strong possibility of terminal war. It may feel satisfying to drive the bear into a corner from which it will lash out in desperation — as it can. Hardly wise. Meanwhile, we should do anything we can to provide meaningful support for those valiantly defending their homeland against cruel aggressors, for those escaping the horrors, and for the thousands of courageous Russians publicly opposing the crime of their state at great personal risk, a lesson to all of us. And we should also try to find ways to help a much broader class of victims: all life on Earth. This catastrophe took place at a moment where all of the great powers, indeed all of us, must be working together to control the great scourge of environmental destruction that is already exacting a grim toll, with much worse soon to come unless major efforts are undertaken quickly. To drive home the obvious, the IPCC just released the latest and by far most ominous of its regular assessments of how we are careening to catastrophe. Meanwhile, the necessary actions are stalled, even driven into reverse, as badly needed resources are devoted to destruction and the world is now on a course to expand the use of fossil fuels, including the most dangerous and conveniently abundant of them, coal. A more grotesque conjuncture could hardly be devised by a malevolent demon. It can’t be ignored. Every moment counts. The Russian invasion is in clear violation of Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, which prohibits the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity of another state. Yet Putin sought to offer legal justifications for the invasion during his speech on February 24, and Russia cites Kosovo, Iraq, Libya and Syria as evidence that the United States and its allies violate international law repeatedly. Can you comment on Putin’s legal justifications for the invasion of Ukraine and on the status of international law in the post-Cold War era? There is nothing to say about Putin’s attempt to offer legal justification for his aggression. Its merit is zero. Of course, it is true that the U.S. and its allies violate international law without a blink of an eye, but that provides no extenuation for Putin’s crimes. Kosovo, Iraq and Libya did, however, have direct implications for the conflict over Ukraine. The Iraq invasion was a textbook example of the crimes for which Nazis were hanged at Nuremberg, pure unprovoked aggression. And a punch in Russia’s face. n the case of Kosovo, NATO aggression (meaning U.S. aggression) was claimed to be “illegal but justified” (for example, by the International Commission on Kosovo chaired by Richard Goldstone) on grounds that the bombing was undertaken to terminate ongoing atrocities. That judgment required reversal of the chronology. The evidence is overwhelming that the flood of atrocities was the consequence of the invasion: predictable, predicted, anticipated. Furthermore, diplomatic options were available, [but] as usual, ignored in favor of violence. High U.S. officials confirm that it was primarily the bombing of Russian ally Serbia — without even informing them in advance — that reversed Russian efforts to work together with the U.S. somehow to construct a post-Cold War European security order, a reversal accelerated with the invasion of Iraq and the bombing of Libya after Russia agreed not to veto a UN Security Council Resolution that NATO at once violated. Events have consequences; however, the facts may be concealed within the doctrinal system. The status of international law did not change in the post-Cold War period, even in words, let alone actions. President Clinton made it clear that the U.S. had no intention of abiding by it. The Clinton Doctrine declared that the U.S. reserves the right to act “unilaterally when necessary,” including “unilateral use of military power” to defend such vital interests as “ensuring uninhibited access to key markets, energy supplies and strategic resources.” His successors as well, and anyone else who can violate the law with impunity. That’s not to say that international law is of no value. It has a range of applicability, and it is a useful standard in some respects. |
Fortunately, the US has given up on genocide after exterminating the native Americans 150 years ago. Now, if we could just get Putin to move into the 21st century and stop being a dick.
Edited by SteveG - March 17 2022 at 05:18
|
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
|
 |
SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20617
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 07:26 |
omphaloskepsis wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hussain, Kim Jong, Putin. They never end. |
So right, Steve. Pol Pot, Putin, Pelosi, Biden (Father and Son Hunter), George W. Bush, Obama, Justin Trudeau. They never end. |
Not to be inflammatory, I didn't put Trump at the head of the list. It would have been decent of you not to do the same with Biden, etc. But you're not decent, are you?
Edited by SteveG - March 17 2022 at 07:31
|
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
|
 |
progaardvark
Special Collaborator
Crossover/Symphonic/RPI Teams
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Sea of Peas
Status: Offline
Points: 53477
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 07:27 |
There are reports of survivors from that bombing today, but there were believed to be 1200 people sheltering there and they even wrote in huge lettering the Russian word for children (дети) on the ground of two sides of the building.
|
---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions
|
 |
Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10732
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 07:41 |
progaardvark wrote:
There are reports of survivors from that bombing today, but there were believed to be 1200 people sheltering there and they even wrote in huge lettering the Russian word for children (дети) on the ground of two sides of the building. |
The rubble also buried an entrance to a bomb shelter. Hopefully they get that cleared soon, they are going to need it. Obviously putin and his armchair enablers don't care much about children.
Edited by Easy Money - March 17 2022 at 07:42
|
 |
jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
Status: Offline
Points: 6052
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 09:02 |
MEMORANDUM:
jamesbaldwin wrote:
I open this thread after seeing the impossibility of discussing calmly, and without insults, on the other thread on this topic.
I believe that the invasion of Ukraine is a historic turning point, and needs to be analyzed in depth. As a nonviolent pacifist, and as a citizen of the world, I condemn Putin's war, I believe it is as wrong as all wars of border aggression. I will not repeat this premise because it seems obvious to me. However, having memory, I also know that I have feared a war like this for many years because the expansion of NATO to Eastern Europe according to many independent Western analysts was leading to an increasing risk of a violent reaction from Moscow. We are here on a music forum, we are neither political nor military, we do not have the power to determine history. We can only try to understand it.
To understand what is happening, it is necessary to research the historical events that preceded this invasion, that is, to study the context within which it was carried out and is carried out day after day. Understanding the historical context and the "reasons" for this invasion does not in any way justify it, but make it understandable. Every human action has its rational basis, however despicable it may be.
But understanding the causes of this invasion is especially important because if we do not understand the causes we cannot imagine what the solutions may be that can get us out of this state of war so that justice is done to all the agents in the field.
There is no true and lasting peace without justice.
We do not have the power to propose solutions, we can only try to understand history, study it, discuss, confront, and get an idea of how it could be a more just world where rights and duties are equal for everyone.
Any reflection, opinion, quotation from historians, politicians, intellectuals is welcome. The important thing is to always show respect for the opinions of others. Let's not fall into the logic of war, in the opposition between two barricades, between those who have only faults and those who have only reasons: there are many shades of gray between white and black.
|
Tapfret:
Reopening this topic for discussion of the incursion into Ukraine. Lorenzo's thoughts seem like a good jumping off point. The previous thread, "...any concerns?", will remain closed. Only need one thread on the subject.
Personal attacks, gaslighting, disinformation, and generally creating a scenario that requires babysitting will be snuffed.
-----
I remind everyone of the setting I gave to this thread.
Nobody is obliged to share it: but if you do not share it, it would be correct to avoid writing here (you can always open another thread), just as it would be correct to avoid writing here in a disrespectful way with the intent of causing the closure of this thread.
Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 17 2022 at 09:05
|
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
|
 |
jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
Status: Offline
Points: 6052
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 09:30 |
nick_h_nz wrote:
Easy. Third World War. And I would have chosen this option in 2014, too - though perhaps less easily. But certainly, I find it disgusting that the West sits back and watches simply because Ukraine is not part of their gang.
-----------------------------
Yeah, it’s very easy to choose the acceptance of one country losing sovereignty to the another, when it is not your own. That’s why Chamberlain’s “peace in our time” was cheered for.
But there’s no way Putin will stop there, if his demands are met. He may not go further into Ukraine, but there are plenty of other juicy morsels for him: Moldova, Georgia, Kazachstan. Not only that, but it will be further proof that NATO will allow him to do just that - so long as he doesn’t intrude on their borders.
You may well be fine with that, but I am not. And I would rather more countries were drawn into the conflict. I don’t think they should need to be drawn into it, so much as put themselves into it - but clearly that is not going to happen. So I hope one of those shells near the Polish border accidentally goes a little too far. I hope we do head into WWIII - because apart from his death, it’s the only way Putin will be stopped.
|
At least now I understand why you are such a fervent admirer of Ukrainians.
You are the first I hear expressly that he is in favor of the third world war, but I am convinced that many people want it without saying it.
|
Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
|
 |
Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10732
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 09:47 |
James' personal attacks (direct copy and paste):
"On the other hand, I hope that you and Steve G do not come here yet with the aim of misrepresenting what I have written (as you did here with me), insulting (as Steve has already done to me) by calling me anti-democratic, distorting any reasoned reflection with the aim of closing also this thread. I would advice you and Steve, if you are unable to refrain from insults or meaningless comparisons like the one you just did,"
EDIT: I would also like to add that you have misquoted me several times. Please do not do that anymore. I am perfectly capable of speaking for myself.
Edited by Easy Money - March 17 2022 at 10:33
|
 |
Dark Ness
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 21 2021
Location: Edge of Town
Status: Offline
Points: 246
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 10:17 |
I mean, what a meaningless and sterile discussion, fellows! Right is right and wrong is wrong, and starting a war will always be wrong no matter what.
|
 |
Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10732
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 10:25 |
Dark Ness wrote:
I mean, what a meaningless and sterile discussion, fellows! Right is right and wrong is wrong, and starting a war will always be wrong no matter what.
|
I agree, that should be the end of the discussion.
|
 |
nick_h_nz
Collaborator
Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team
Joined: March 01 2013
Location: Suffolk, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 6742
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 10:37 |
jamesbaldwin wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
There is a difference between free speech and expressing political views on one hand and endless propaganda parroting that is obviously obsessive. |
I've writen:
In my opinion Zelenskij is proving to be an unreliable and dangerous politician because every day he sends false news (Chernobyl), creates provocative videos (Paris bombed), asks for NATO to enter the war, offends Europe which should show pride and go to war etc.
This is a political opinion. It is easy to understand. But your anger (hatred? what?) at me prevents you from understanding it, and so it seems that you cannot distinguish political opinion from propaganda.
You can try to distort what I say in many other ways, but you can never make an intelligent speech that shows that I do propaganda: I don't I do it.
Your problem with me is just this: I do not align with the anti-Russian war propaganda that is rampant in the West. And by not lining up, you accuse me of doing anti-Ukrainian propaganda.
However, unless you and others reach the goal of having this thread shut down, I will no longer respond to your allegations, and will continue to post my own or others' opinions.
In Italy, for example, the discussion on whether or not to send weapons to Ukraine is heated, and there are nonviolent pacifist positions that I think are very interesting.
|
The bold print here seems reasonable enough to shut this thread down. As others have said, and as I believe myself, you are clearly intelligent, but not doing yourself justice. You claim your words are distorted, but I’ve seen you distort others words more than I’ve seen them distort yours. You’ve certainly distorted mine. But maybe you’re unaware you’re even doing so? I can’t I,whine you doing it maliciously, so I think because of your own stubborn dogmatism you are misconstruing the opinions of others, and making inferences that you perhaps shouldn’t.
I don’t believe anyone has the goal of having this thread shut down, but you have proved enough that it was perhaps not a good idea to reopen it. Your political opinions are indeed easy to understand, but they are just that - opinions. And they are rather simplistic ones. As yo7 admitted in discussion about Crimea, that region’s history is complex, yet you seek a simplistic solution, and defer to one opinion of, if I remember rightly, the wife of a good friend, as “proof” that your opinion is meaningful.
You’re right that no one can ever make an intelligent speech that shows that you “do propaganda”, because I don’t think anyone thinks that at all. However you do seem to erroneously believe that you’ve been unaffected by propaganda, as your political opinions certainly seem to imply that. Or maybe I’m inferring incorrectly from your words, in a similar way to that in which you’ve inferred incorrectly from the words of others.
You accuse people of anger and hatred towards you, and I’ve not seen any of that. Frustration and pity, perhaps - but not anger and hatred.
As someone else has said, stop playing the victim. And if you’re not, then think about how to re-word your posts so as not to appear that way. No-one is bullying you, and why should people not respond to your allegations with those of their own, so long as it is in a calm and polite manner?
Your views are of a minority, and while that doesn’t make them wrong, it’s obvious that a lot of people won’t think them right.
|
|
 |
lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13863
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 10:40 |
Easy Money wrote:
Dark Ness wrote:
I mean, what a meaningless and sterile discussion, fellows! Right is right and wrong is wrong, and starting a war will always be wrong no matter what.
| I agree, that should be the end of the discussion. |
Absolutely.
|
Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
|
 |
lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13863
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 10:44 |
nick_h_nz wrote:
jamesbaldwin wrote:
tszirmay wrote:
There is a difference between free speech and expressing political views on one hand and endless propaganda parroting that is obviously obsessive. |
I've writen:
In my opinion Zelenskij is proving to be an unreliable and dangerous politician because every day he sends false news (Chernobyl), creates provocative videos (Paris bombed), asks for NATO to enter the war, offends Europe which should show pride and go to war etc.
This is a political opinion. It is easy to understand. But your anger (hatred? what?) at me prevents you from understanding it, and so it seems that you cannot distinguish political opinion from propaganda.
You can try to distort what I say in many other ways, but you can never make an intelligent speech that shows that I do propaganda: I don't I do it.
Your problem with me is just this: I do not align with the anti-Russian war propaganda that is rampant in the West. And by not lining up, you accuse me of doing anti-Ukrainian propaganda.
However, unless you and others reach the goal of having this thread shut down, I will no longer respond to your allegations, and will continue to post my own or others' opinions.
In Italy, for example, the discussion on whether or not to send weapons to Ukraine is heated, and there are nonviolent pacifist positions that I think are very interesting.
|
The bold print here seems reasonable enough to shut this thread down. As others have said, and as I believe myself, you are clearly intelligent, but not doing yourself justice. You claim your words are distorted, but I’ve seen you distort others words more than I’ve seen them distort yours. You’ve certainly distorted mine. But maybe you’re unaware you’re even doing so? I can’t I,whine you doing it maliciously, so I think because of your own stubborn dogmatism you are misconstruing the opinions of others, and making inferences that you perhaps shouldn’t.
I don’t believe anyone has the goal of having this thread shut down, but you have proved enough that it was perhaps not a good idea to reopen it. Your political opinions are indeed easy to understand, but they are just that - opinions. And they are rather simplistic ones. As yo7 admitted in discussion about Crimea, that region’s history is complex, yet you seek a simplistic solution, and defer to one opinion of, if I remember rightly, the wife of a good friend, as “proof” that your opinion is meaningful.
You’re right that no one can ever make an intelligent speech that shows that you “do propaganda”, because I don’t think anyone thinks that at all. However you do seem to erroneously believe that you’ve been unaffected by propaganda, as your political opinions certainly seem to imply that. Or maybe I’m inferring incorrectly from your words, in a similar way to that in which you’ve inferred incorrectly from the words of others.
You accuse people of anger and hatred towards you, and I’ve not seen any of that. Frustration and pity, perhaps - but not anger and hatred.
As someone else has said, stop playing the victim. And if you’re not, then think about how to re-word your posts so as not to appear that way. No-one is bullying you, and why should people not respond to your allegations with those of their own, so long as it is in a calm and polite manner?
Your views are of a minority, and while that doesn’t make them wrong, it’s obvious that a lot of people won’t think them right.
|
I think this is an excellent post, Nick. Absolutely clear and pointing out that attempting to proffer simplistic solutions to a desperately (and desperate) awful event and history is never the answer.
When the COVID thread was open, I was in a minority, and I accepted that. I do think that many of the points I made regarding media hysteria, ridiculous rules, and the mortality rate have been somewhat vindicated with time. That thread was also horrible. Some people seem to find it almost impossible to conduct a debate with dignity and politely.
|
Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
|
 |
Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 15402
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 11:38 |
I don't agree with Lorenzo but I do believe he is treated unfairly here. For sure he didn't start becoming personal. Those who don't want to discuss here or want an entirely different thread should better stay out or indeed open their own thread.
|
 |
nick_h_nz
Collaborator
Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team
Joined: March 01 2013
Location: Suffolk, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 6742
|
Posted: March 17 2022 at 11:46 |
Lorenzo was definitely treated unfairly in the original Ukraine thread, and things definitely became far too personal there. There was offensive and insulting language that has no place in this forum, and Lorenzo was definitely attacked for his views. But I think he has had a far fairer hearing this time around. Perhaps I have missed some posts, but I honestly haven’t seen any unfair posts here. In fact, Lorenzo has at times (intentionally or not) shown more disdain for the views of others, than I’ve seen others show his. There seems to be a certain intransigence to some people’s views, that I think is understandable. Personally I don’t think, after the previous blocking of threads regarding discussion on Ukraine, that any should have been re-opened. But while this is still open, I see no reason why Lorenzo’s opinions cannot be rebutted? As I say, I may have missed some posts, but what I’ve seen have not been unfair (or worse, offensive, insulting and personal, as they were in the previous thread).
|
|
 |