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tszirmay 
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Joined: August 17 2006
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 Posted: March 18 2022 at 18:15 |
 Easy Money wrote:
SteveG wrote:
I understand the frustration with Ukraine’s martial law, but what can a country do when many of its enemies are it's own citizens who are Russian sympathizers? A very tough situation. |
Exactly, there are most certainly people in Ukraine who side with putin. |
Mostly among the Donb-ass likers (phew, that was close!  word slalom)
Edited by tszirmay - March 18 2022 at 18:29
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tszirmay
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Posted: March 18 2022 at 19:26 |
While on the subjects of Ukraine, War and coarse insults: here is a very good one, I am sure some will enjoy (perhaps not some of our Turkish friends as much) :
Mehmed IV, Ottoman Sultan 1648–87 Reply of the Zaporozhian Cossacks depicts a supposedly historical tableau, set in 1676, and based on the legend of Cossacks sending a reply to an ultimatum of the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, Mehmed IV. The original reply, if it ever existed, has not survived; however, in the 1870s an amateur ethnographer from Yekaterinoslav (today Dnipro), Novitsky, found a copy made in the 18th century. He gave it to historian Dmytro Yavornytsky (1855-1940), who by chance read it to his guests, among whom was the painter Ilya Repin. Repin became curious about the story and in 1880 started the first of his studies.[citation needed]
According to the story, the Zaporozhian Cossacks (from 'beyond the rapids', Ukrainian: za porohamy), inhabiting the lands around the lower Dnieper River in Ukraine, had defeated Ottoman Empire forces in battle. However, Mehmed demanded that the Cossacks submit to Turkish rule. The Cossacks, led by Ivan Sirko, replied in an uncharacteristic manner: they wrote a letter, replete with insults and profanities. The painting exhibits the Cossacks' pleasure at striving to come up with ever more base vulgarities. During Repin's time, the Cossacks enjoyed great popular sympathy. Repin also admired them: "All that Gogol wrote about them is true! A holy people! No one in the world held so deeply freedom, equality, and fraternity."[2]
Sultan Mehmed IV to the Zaporozhian Cossacks: As the Sultan; son of Muhammad; brother of the sun and moon; grandson and viceroy of God; ruler of the kingdoms of Macedonia, Babylon, Jerusalem, Upper and Lower Egypt; emperor of emperors; sovereign of sovereigns; extraordinary knight, never defeated; steadfast guardian of the tomb of Jesus Christ; trustee chosen by God Himself; the hope and comfort of Muslims; confounder and great defender of Christians - I command you, the Zaporogian Cossacks, to submit to me voluntarily and without any resistance, and to desist from troubling me with your attacks. --Turkish Sultan Mehmed IV
The Cossacks' reply came as a stream of invective and vulgar rhymes, parodying the Sultan's titles:[citation needed] Zaporozhian Cossacks to the Turkish Sultan! O sultan, Turkish devil and damned devil's kith and kin, secretary to Lucifer himself. What the devil kind of knight are thou, that canst not slay a hedgehog with your naked arse? The devil sh*ts, and your army eats. Thou shalt not, thou son of a whore, make subjects of Christian sons; we have no fear of your army, by land and by sea we will battle with thee, f*** thy mother. Thou Babylonian scullion, Macedonian wheelwright, brewer of Jerusalem, goat-f**ker of Alexandria, swineherd of Greater and Lesser Egypt, pig of Armenia, Podolian thief, catamite of Tartary, hangman of Kamyanets, and fool of all the world and underworld, an idiot before God, grandson of the Serpent, and the crick in our dick. Pig's snout, mare's arse, slaughterhouse cur, unchristened brow, screw thine own mother! So the Zaporozhians declare, you lowlife. You won't even be herding pigs for the Christians. Now we'll conclude, for we don't know the date and don't own a calendar; the moon's in the sky, the year with the Lord, the day's the same over here as it is over there; for this kiss our arse! - Koshovyi otaman Ivan Sirko |
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nick_h_nz
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Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team
Joined: March 01 2013
Location: Suffolk, UK
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Points: 6742
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 02:15 |
Easy Money wrote:
Woon Deadn wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Woon Deadn wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Woon, I pulled up some of your quotes from the previous thread because I think they are important. I will explain why later. There are some other more telling quotes you made about putin, that is still to come.
Woon Deadn:
"I personally do not think, believe, anticipate, expect Russia attacks Ukraine in the near future. Russia, it seems, uses the collective common West's fear of the KGB, Stalin and all that stuff. As I have already written here, the post-Stalin USSR was of course totalitarian to a big enough extent, but it was absolutely different from the Stalin era's one. The West, an average westerner still thinks of the USSR and modern day Russia in those categories. The sane former Soviet people do not think that way. I ABSOLUTELY am not afraid of any possible large-scale attacks from Russia. I find the idea (both of attack and of being afraid of it) nonsensical. I sure may be wrong - but this is how I feel about it. I see no reason to feel the other way."
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I still find the idea absolutely nonsensical... 
As I wrote, the sane people did not think that way. How could I predict that the Russian leadership would be insane and act nonsensically? |
Very clever, you are a smooth operator for sure. |
As you may see, I always tell of my personal feelings. I am not familiar with any elites. I may only tell how I feel and what I understand. The current invasion is so nonsensical and so practically unwinnable for Russia that I see no ways how a sane person could give an order for starting it. |
Right, but what about this quote where you claim others are naive to think there will be an attack. I knew there was going to be one. You claim that those who think this is going to happen are not sane.
"The West, an average westerner still thinks of the USSR and modern day Russia in those categories. The sane former Soviet people do not think that way. I ABSOLUTELY am not afraid of any possible large-scale attacks from Russia. I find the idea (both of attack and of being afraid of it) nonsensical. I sure may be wrong - but this is how I feel about it. I see no reason to feel the other way."
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It depends on what you think large-scale attacks are. I wasn’t surprised by the “peacekeeping” forces sent in to the Donbas. I thought they were somewhat inevitable and predictable, and had been on the way since 2014. It was more of a when, than an if.
But like, Wood, I ABSOLUTELY would not have expected any large-scale attack from Russia, and found the idea of it nonsensical. I am not in any way, shape or form a sympathiser or apologist for Putin. There is no excuse, nor mitigating circumstances, that can take away the sole guilt he holds for what he has done and is doing to Ukraine.
You may call Wood a smooth operator, but he has not ever changed his words or meanings. I can understand why an analogy to James Bond might be distasteful to some, but really Bond is an archaic, misogynist, xenophobic, sociopath dressed up to be acceptable. It’s not that bad an analogy for Putin.
No sane person saw this coming, but in retrospect maybe we should have done. Putin has effectively had eight years to plan this, and to mitigate against the sanctions that would be levelled against him. I don’t think he is a madman, so much as an opportunist. And he has certainly seized this opportunity.
What Putin is carrying out is not just war against Ukraine, but genocide of the Ukrainian people. I don’t think anyone expected this. I don’t think Wood was wrong to think it nonsensical that it might happen, or to even be scared of it happening. It simply seemed implausible. Crimea, yes. The Donbas, yes. But this?
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Archisorcerus
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Joined: February 02 2022
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 02:59 |
tszirmay wrote:
While on the subjects of Ukraine, War and coarse insults: here is a very good one, I am sure some will enjoy (perhaps not some of our Turkish friends as much) :
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I might have been displeased if this were about our pre-Islamic history. But likely not, even then. Also, FYI, as long as there's no witticism in them, I don't enjoy insults.
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SteveG
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 05:33 |
@Woon. The greatest actor of all. There's no doubt in my mind that Ronald Reagan acted as the president at times, but he was effective and is even credited with helping topple the USSR!  
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nick_h_nz
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Joined: March 01 2013
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Points: 6742
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 05:40 |
Arnold Schwarzenegger would have been a far more effective president than Trump, I’m sure. Being a former actor (comedic or otherwise) really shouldn’t preclude one from the highest office.
Also, I like the way Wood has portrayed Zelenskyy’s rise, noting that he was perhaps not ready for the complexities of Ukrainian politics, and battered from both sides of the political spectrum, but has learnt through the trials of battle how to effectively lead the country. (Apologies, Wood, if that’s not quite how you intended to come across, but that’s how I read your words.)
I’m no Putin sympathise or apologist, but I definitely don’t think Zelenskyy was a perfect leader. However, as Steve has pointed out, in the annals of history he will be known forever as a heroic leader, for the way he has stood and governed since Putin went to war on his country.
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Easy Money
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Joined: August 11 2007
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 06:06 |
Okay, I have been sending my hard earned cash to buy medical supplies to help relieve the suffering from this vicious insanity. What are the rest of you arm chair generals doing in the real world? 
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 07:01 |
Easy Money wrote:
Okay, I have been sending my hard earned cash to buy medical supplies to help relieve the suffering from this vicious insanity. What are the rest of you arm chair generals doing in the real world? |
Pretty much the same, but I think it's in bad taste to publicly state how or when you do acts of charity. It's an old person's thing.
Edited by SteveG - March 19 2022 at 07:03
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nick_h_nz
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 07:33 |
SteveG wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Okay, I have been sending my hard earned cash to buy medical supplies to help relieve the suffering from this vicious insanity. What are the rest of you arm chair generals doing in the real world? |
Pretty much the same, but I think it's in bad taste to publicly state how or when you do acts of charity. It's an old person's thing. |
I don't know that I would say it is an old person's thing - but I do agree that it is in bad taste. I have seen a lot of bands and artists on FB be lambasted on almost every post they make, if they have not publicly posted that they stand with Ukraine.
For example, Manic Street Preachers, who like so many musicians are almost intrinsically linked to politics, have not made any public statement, leading some of their "fans" (and I put that in inverted commas as surely anyone who is actually a fan of the band, and has followed them for any length of time would know better) claiming that because of their FB silence, they are somehow not supporting Ukraine as much as they could be. (This despite them being one of the main draws to an upcoming charity concert where all proceeds are going to Ukraine.)
Some people don't like to say how much they have donated, because it can become a pissing contest, and that's not the point. People give what they can, and some people are simply so financially strained that they can't give much, or anything at all, in money. I have seen people shamed for offering clothes and food for collection, because apparently they should be giving money. I know that some of these people simply don't have money, and the clothes and food they are offering is all they can offer, and it's as hard earned for them as the cash others are giving.
I think the point is to assume that people are giving all they are able to, and not ask for proof. And for some people, who cannot afford to give money, then being an "armchair general" is as much as they can do. It's funny, because when it comes to music, I see a lot of bands and artists sharing the meme/image that there are many ways to support them, and if you can't afford to buy their music, then share that you're streaming it, favourite them on a streaming service, share the music, share the YouTube videos, share the upcoming gigs. The idea being that sharing can still be helpful, if its all you can afford, and that no-one should feel they can do nothing to help their favourite band or artist, just because they are short on funds. Yet when it comes to showing support for Ukraine, as soon as people do so, they can be condemned for "doing nothing but sharing". And if they don't share their support (as per Manic Street Preachers, who have always been understated in their charity and support for anything), then they can be condemned for "doing nothing".
Just because someone is not visibly supporting Ukraine, or is visibly supporting but not donating or otherwise volunteering help, does not mean they deserve to be criticised. Save the criticism for those who are overtly supporting Putin, and there are a scary amount of people doing that. I can't work out if maybe they are the infamous Russian 'bots, or if they are trolls, or what, but they don't appear to have any connection to Russia (by their names, locations, etc.) but do all they can to criticise anyone who supports Ukraine. You can usually tell them because they have the Russian flag in their profile pic.
Anyway, this is not to have a go at Easy Money, who is clearly doing everything possible to help Ukraine, and knows many people affected by the war. It's just a cautionary word against inferring that if someone is not financially contributing aid, or volunteering in any other way, that they so not support Ukraine, and hate what Putin is doing. A lot of people already feel impotent and useless, and even inferring that they are not doing enough is disheartening and unfair.
I know a lot of people in Ukraine, more than I do in Russia or Belarus (or Georgia and Moldova), but I know people in all those countries - and every single one of them stands with Ukraine. The world pretty much stands with Ukraine. Even Lorenzo stands with Ukraine - he just doesn't want war. I get that, as a pacifist myself, but sometimes wuwei is not an option.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
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Joined: August 11 2007
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 08:37 |
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tszirmay
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 08:44 |
"The only victories which leave no regret are those which are gained over ignorance" "He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat"
Both quotes Napoleon Bonaparte.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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SteveG
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 09:18 |
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Easy Money
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 09:44 |
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^ Lithuanians too. I've been watching videos of school children in France and Germany welcoming their new Ukrainian friends. Very touching.
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tszirmay
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 09:48 |
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And in Hungary as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MJoCR01FSw
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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SteveG
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 14:35 |
Three cheers for the Poles, Romanians, Lithuanians and Hungarians for going above and beyond. 
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jamesbaldwin
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 18:02 |
The logic of war and the success of the arms lobby (and the next climate catastrophe)
In Italy, the government has decided to increase military spending by more than 50% (which never happened), making it go from 68 million euros a day to 104 million. Although the Italian Constitution has an article that says it "repudiates war as a tool for resolving conflicts", Italy has decided to sell arms to Ukraine. The first time Italy broke his Constitution was in 1991, supporting the US with military bases and war airplanes in Bush Sr.'s war on Iraq. On that occasion, the right-wing president of the Italian government said that Italy was engaged in an "international police operation" (a term very similar to what Putin uses to disguise his war: "Special military operation"), since saying "war" could be unconstitutional, and the leftists could try to stop it by calling into question the Constitutional Court. Since then, no one thought about it anymore and Italy took part in the war on Kosovo which was allowed by the whole Parliament because there was a left-wing president in the government who, for the first time, declared himself in favor of a war. Now Italy is selling arms and for the first time is increasing its arms budget like never before. Only the radical left is opposed (and not because it is Putin's friend, no one here considers Putin a communist or a socialist: Putin, for me, looks very much like a fascist). In these days, in Italy, Center-left politicians or social democrats insult and offend the pacifists for their opposition in selling weapons to Ukrayne. The money that will be used to expand armaments will be taken from the European energy plan for ecological transition, aimed at combating the devastating effects of global warming.
But all of Europe seems to have forgotten about the ecological transition: Europe imbued itself with war rhetoric without considering the environmental catastrophes we will face. Only Chomsky, in the article I have already cited, remember that returning to the Cold War schemes today means bringing the Earth to climate catrastrophe, since increasing armaments means spending money on fossil fuels, producing greenhouse gases and decreeing the end of the ecological transition, necessary to stop the global warming. It takes a united world, the West with Russia, China and India at the same table to prevent the climate catastrophe: now that Trump is no more the boss, the West should realize that the life of our planet is asking us to dialogue with Russia. But it seems that all of Europe has suddenly gone mad, and has forgotten about the climate crisis. Boris Johnson's has already put the helmet on and Macron yesterday announced large spending on the French army because France, Macron says, must expect a "high intensity war" soon. Textual words. When will Europe start thinking about international police training to solve its internal woes? And when will Europe remember the climate crisis?
On the other hand, after having armed Ukraine all the past years, the USA is now increasing its military involvement:
Doug Bandow (Cato's Institute): The War Party Wins Even When We Lose
Russia has attacked Ukraine. Moscow launched an aggressive war without justification. The US is edging into the conflict and rushing troops to Europe. The international economy is staggering as America and Europe impose brutal sanctions on Russia. Democrats are ready to join Republicans in inflating an already outsize military budget. Talk has turned to Taiwan, which could drag Washington into an even worse conflict with China.
All this because the bipartisan War Party that dominates US foreign policy insisted it was entitled to not only dominate the Americas, per the Monroe Doctrine, but the rest of the world, up to, and often beyond, the borders of other nations. Despite the risk of war — far too great, as evident from Russia’s assault on Ukraine — US policymakers would not acknowledge past commitments and halt the steady advance of allied military power toward Russia’s border.
Having just demonstrated to the world its consistent lack of accountability, the War Party now stands to gain more power, influence, and resources. After Moscow’s aggression, the military‐industrial‐think tank‐media‐lobbyist‐complex immediately swung into action with proposals for enlarged armed services, plans for more aggressive military intervention, and, of course, demands for more money. Washington elites will enjoy enhanced status, positions, influence, and profit while the rest of the population pays the price.
In short, the War Party gains when the rest of us lose. Indeed, policymakers who spent the last two decades making America less safe demonstrated that they do best when they fail. Being a member of the infamous Washington “Blob” means never having to say you are sorry, no matter how many deaths and how much destruction you cause.
The decision to attack Ukraine was Vladimir Putin’s. But the crisis reflects three decades of reckless, destructive policies
The Cold War was extraordinarily dangerous, but the threat of nuclear Armageddon helped keep the peace. The Cuban Missile Crisis chastened both Moscow and Washington. Had President John F. Kennedy listened to his military advisers and invaded Cuba, war would almost certainly have resulted. In Vietnam the American public learned that its government could not be trusted — indeed, the Domino Theory became one of the great busts of history: 14 years after South Vietnam collapsed the Berlin Wall fell. Two years later the Soviet Union dissolved.
Even Ronald Reagan, dismissed as an irresponsible cowboy, turned toward negotiation after the nuclear scare caused by the 1983 Able Archer military exercise. He faced down some of his most fervent supporters — who attacked him as naïve and even a commie dupe — and recognized that Mikhail Gorbachev was very different from the usual communist apparatchik. Together they ended the Cold War.
This extraordinary achievement offered enormous promise. For the briefest moment even NATO appeared ready for retirement. Alliance advocates were reduced to suggesting that the military pact shift to promoting student exchanges and targeting drug pushers. But then interest groups took over, as Public Choice Economics would predict. Blob members and military contractors took the lead in pushing NATO expansion. After all, if the transatlantic alliance brought in new countries and expanded US responsibilities, the War Party would have a new mission and the merchants of death would sell more weapons. Never mind beatific assurances given by allied officials to Moscow — well documented by declassified documents and WikiLeaks revelations. The Russians lost. What could they do?
Well, we just found out.
https://www.cato.org/commentary/war-party-wins-even-when-we-lose
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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omphaloskepsis
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 18:39 |
Outstanding analysis. Well spoken. ^
Lorenzo, you applied nuance and critical thinking to a complicated situation/history.
Most folks see it in binary black and white. They claim that this or that person is 100% at fault. Nothing is 100%. And that's a scientific fact.
Edited by omphaloskepsis - March 19 2022 at 19:06
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 18:46 |
^ Too funny. Deluded, but funny. Go ahead Lorenzo, resident communist apologist extraordinaire, absolve the USSR for their near half century of enslaving Eastern Europe and now Russia with Putin, good little KGB agent that he is, trying to bring the old empire back together with his oppression and poisonings and annexations and brutal military actions in his own country. And mock elections...let's not forget the mock elections, where opponents end up exiled, imprisoned or dead.
If Putin died from exposure riding a horse naked in the snow to somehow prove his shrinking manhood, and Russia behaved like a normal country and joined the European Union, would there be a need for any of this?
The very short answer, without several paragraphs of gibberish, distortions, irrelevance and hyperbole, is no. You can point your proletarian pinky wherever you wish, but in the end, this is all on Putin. No one else. With Putin gone, no one is invading Russia. No one is annexing Siberia and Irkutsk. No one wants any of it. Blaming NATO is merely a pretext for Putin wanting the Ukraine and Crimea as part of Russia, as if he were the incarnation of Peter the Great. Except ol' Pete was much taller, and could drink poor puny Vladdy under the table. |
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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jamesbaldwin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 25 2015
Location: Milano
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Points: 6052
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 19:27 |
Lewian wrote:
As Valpaiana mentions anti-fascists from the Resistance, I have in mind that Hitler was not stopped by non-violence, and neither by opponents in Germany. Sure, Putin is not Hitler, however finding a peaceful solution on the basis of non-violence and disarmament needs to assume/trust that the other side respects non-violence rather than being encouraged to use violence against those who don't effectively defend themselves. It's hard to have that trust in Putin! Yesterday I read this: It seems Putin demands disarmament of the Ukraine (obviously without offering anything of that kind for Russia). This does not seem acceptable to me, as it essentially means that he wants to have a state of affairs that makes it easier for the Russians to invade another time (keep in mind that Putin said that the Ukraine doesn't have the right to exist as an independent nation).
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I believe that the Ukrainians have the right to an army, like any state (although I would like for all a state without an army like Costa Rica). We will see what happens, neutrality does not mean without an army.
Gandhi's nonviolence may seem utopian, because it asks for the courage to be killed without protecting oneself with weapons, but if you study nonviolent resistance in Norway and Denmark you might be surprised. For example, in Denmark, in the face of unarmed civilians who refused to cooperate and hand over the Jews, the Nazis did not massacre.
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Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Atavachron
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Posted: March 19 2022 at 20:00 |
^ It is possible, quite a distance in the future, that any & all acts of violence including war are globally illegal-- violence wouldn't be completely eradicated but there'd be enforced action taken .
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Reflections on the Russia’s invasion of Ukraine
Just trying to push the conversation to something positive.
