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PrograhamLincoln View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PrograhamLincoln Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2024 at 22:49
Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

I think that there always be artists who want to write good, challenging music, no matter what the genre, so Prog, it seems to me, will always continue to exist, if even in a very obscure, non popular way, just like we see some young composers writting classical music, jazz, blues, etc.

Agreed. Also, young and future composers will still want to write conceptual works, and if they do this in a rock mode, they may accidentally write and release prog albums.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2024 at 22:57
I'm just wondering when the thread will descend into the usual argument of what prog rock is. Is it a style or is it an attitude? Does seem they are divided into 2 seperate camps.
If you take any notice of ratings and rankings then PA's top 30 list is mostly 1970's albums. That's when it happened. Latterly it's hard to pin down what it is although even now there is a rewriting of history as to what prog was in the 70's with the likes of Roxy Music, 10CC and Supertramp lumped in somehow. It's not so much that the music evolves it's just that everyone wants to talk about music that is 'creative' and then apparently it all becomes prog. We either draw the boundaries or not. The less we draw them the more we are just talking about music generally and what is good and what isn't. Most agree that manufactured pop music is carp but that's about it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote King Crimson776 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2024 at 00:01
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

With the dawn of people being able to make prog albums literally on their phones, I think it's a safe bet to say it's secure

How many of those are going to be any good though?

We need young musicians who actually listen to classical music (as the great prog musicians of the 70's did) and understand what makes a coherent composition. Absent that, you get a lot of the technical w**kery and "avant-garde" nonsense that we hear in recent years. The musicians may be very skilled, but they have no compositional sense.
This take is nonsense as it assumes that many young musicians who play music in the prog sphere don't listen to classical (many do, and "classical" is a pretty wide umbrella genre), AND that one HAS to listen to it to make good prog (many don't and the music is just as good). So widen your scope, not only of what newer prog you listen to, but of what qualifies as "prog" or "good prog" or even "good" music. If you can't handle a little experimentalism and prefer more structure, or just prefer older recording/production techniques, then just admit that it comes down to your taste rather than lambast musicians of my generation with uninformed opinions.

If you don't have the understanding of Classical that I'm talking about, you get Mars Volta and black midi instead of KC, GG and Yes. Some may be fine with that, but I'm basically saying those newer bands are infected with a kind of "Punk" attitude which compromises their Prog aspects. This attitude is basically "it doesn't matter how much you know about music, just be creative bro". It's a poison that is ubiquitous in modern music. Take a look at any recent yearly chart on RateYourMusic. I think the main reason it's 95% total trash is for the very reason I'm saying. The approach appears to be more "let's throw cool sounds at the wall" than any kind of real attempt at composition or songwriting.

So no, it does matter that you know the fundamentals of music and have an acquaintance with the masters of Classical, especially if you're making Prog. Where's the broader view of musical history? If all you do is listen to a bit of KC, Zappa, GG and Mr. Bungle and think you can make prog now (black midi), you're going to be limited in what you're capable of. Experimentalism is fine so long as the fundamental composition is solid. It can't be a replacement for actual musical depth. For the most part, it should be a "spice" rather than the main dish.


Edited by King Crimson776 - April 15 2024 at 00:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2024 at 00:20
^ I don't think that kind of snobbery is helpful, but you do you. 

Have you looked into the Black Midi musicians and what their musical background is?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2024 at 07:48
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ I don't think that kind of snobbery is helpful, but you do you. 

Have you looked into the Black Midi musicians and what their musical background is?

HI,

I'm not sure that the "background" is that important, although I would not argue that it does help to a degree. However, there are many musicians that are self taught that made it very big, and in some ways, it's like the work they did is not valid as we don't have a "background" ... 

Progressive material, however, did have quite a few folks that were fairly well educated when it came to music, and the Berlin folks is probably the one spot where there were a lot of modern composers that helped influence a lot of the new music. Both Schulze and Froese, and all members of CAN (except Damo), were very highly educated folks as well ... and we don't have to check their background to know they put together an amazing amount of music.

England might differ a bit, but some of the areas were definitely educated, Canterbury being the one area where folks were musically more advanced than half the folks in rock music at the time. 

For America, just about all of it is reactive and against the establishment in some ways when it comes to the start of the progressive/psychedelic days. But they made it clear to a lot of people that it was about how it all felt, not how much it was studied ... and to this day, folks still wonder/say ... wtf was Jack Casady doing on that bass? And he is rarely anointed with a nice compliment. I don't know much about their "education" but based on the playing, I would think that JC was fairly well educated. The Grateful Dead is another story ... in the end, JG came off as very well educated musically, but no one or any biography discusses that much, and his later years doing solo and duet shows totally improvised once or twice weekly and that is probably how he studied his instrument ... 

We should not trash "self-taught" a whole lot ... I suppose that many of us will sit here and think most rap is not good because there is no education behind it (usually), but that would be a nasty generalization about a race, and is not fair. There is some value in their "voice" ... even if we do not consider it progressive. And then we can go back to Gil Scott Heron (The Last Poets) and I would say that a lot of their stuff was actually very well educated!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2024 at 08:29
^ When I'm listening to newly released music, I try not to read anything about the musicians involved. I want to experience the music as unprejudiced as possible. Then I'll assign a rating, which I know you don't like because it's "numbers" ... but it is simply a way to say whether the music moved me which other users can immediately understand, especially when visualised as tiers ("good", "great", "awesome" ...). Upon further listening I'll write a blurb or even a longer review. I usually find out about the musicians much later ...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2024 at 09:48
I commonly am not that interested in the background other than, perhaps, to find other related projects. I'm not one who likes to read much about bands or music artists, or about music generally. I felt differently with film. I like to listen to music that I think will be or find to be of interest. I like to listen to black midi. I love a lot of music that has post-punk/ punk qualities, much of which I find progressive (if not so much typically Prog genre). I like classical music, and when I want classical I would often prefer to listen to classical music composers than those who emulate it and absorb it into a rock framework. Doesn't mean I don;t love things such as Focus' Hamburger Concerto or William Sheller's Lux Aeterna. I disagree that 95 percent is total trash in those charts and that just says something about your biases, not the music itself. I would doubt you would even know the music well enough to make such a statement fairly even taking your own biases and frameworks for quality assessments into account.

Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

...If you don't have the understanding of Classical that I'm talking about, you get Mars Volta and black midi instead of KC, GG and Yes....


Or you sort of get both. Just as some might be interested, black midi has covered King Crimson (and I find similarities between black midi and KC).



Edited by Logan - April 15 2024 at 09:49
Two tracks per many of my fave acts: A Youtube Playlist
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2024 at 11:19
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

...If you don't have the understanding of Classical that I'm talking about, you get Mars Volta and black midi instead of KC, GG and Yes....


Or you sort of get both. Just as some might be interested, black midi has covered King Crimson (and I find similarities between black midi and KC).


I attempted to like this version.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2024 at 11:41
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

To answer the OP's question I think prog will survive. Many of the so called "old" listeners have children who are fans and some even have grandchildren who are fans. Then there's probably a lot of younger people who discovered prog on their own who will keep prog going for who knows how long. If you look at the birthdays at the bottom of the forum page you will see that the prog fans on here are of many different ages. Id' say it's pretty spread out.


Good time to say it, happy birthday!

A little bit late in responding but thanks! 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - April 15 2024 at 11:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote miamiscot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2024 at 13:16
Prog will last until the end of time. Just like Bach, Mozart and Beethoven.

Mark my words.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2024 at 17:51
The future belongs to the young. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2024 at 18:13
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

The future belongs to the young. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 15 2024 at 23:25
Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

Originally posted by King Crimson776 King Crimson776 wrote:

Originally posted by Frets N Worries Frets N Worries wrote:

With the dawn of people being able to make prog albums literally on their phones, I think it's a safe bet to say it's secure

How many of those are going to be any good though?

We need young musicians who actually listen to classical music (as the great prog musicians of the 70's did) and understand what makes a coherent composition. Absent that, you get a lot of the technical w**kery and "avant-garde" nonsense that we hear in recent years. The musicians may be very skilled, but they have no compositional sense.
This take is nonsense as it assumes that many young musicians who play music in the prog sphere don't listen to classical (many do, and "classical" is a pretty wide umbrella genre), AND that one HAS to listen to it to make good prog (many don't and the music is just as good). So widen your scope, not only of what newer prog you listen to, but of what qualifies as "prog" or "good prog" or even "good" music. If you can't handle a little experimentalism and prefer more structure, or just prefer older recording/production techniques, then just admit that it comes down to your taste rather than lambast musicians of my generation with uninformed opinions.

If you don't have the understanding of Classical that I'm talking about, you get Mars Volta and black midi instead of KC, GG and Yes. Some may be fine with that, but I'm basically saying those newer bands are infected with a kind of "Punk" attitude which compromises their Prog aspects. This attitude is basically "it doesn't matter how much you know about music, just be creative bro". It's a poison that is ubiquitous in modern music. Take a look at any recent yearly chart on RateYourMusic. I think the main reason it's 95% total trash is for the very reason I'm saying. The approach appears to be more "let's throw cool sounds at the wall" than any kind of real attempt at composition or songwriting.

So no, it does matter that you know the fundamentals of music and have an acquaintance with the masters of Classical, especially if you're making Prog. Where's the broader view of musical history? If all you do is listen to a bit of KC, Zappa, GG and Mr. Bungle and think you can make prog now (black midi), you're going to be limited in what you're capable of. Experimentalism is fine so long as the fundamental composition is solid. It can't be a replacement for actual musical depth. For the most part, it should be a "spice" rather than the main dish.
You keep saying things that newer bands/artists do like they are bad things (and it's erroneous to assume that all, or even most of them, do, but that's another issue). You also claim to know that all the classic era musicians you listed actually have that much of a background in Classical music (which, again, is a brooooaaaaad genre, that covers many styles that Zappa and Fripp enjoyed, but you'd probably label as "experimentalist cr@p"). Many of them did not, and if they did, didn't actually receive formal training. Which shouldn't matter. And many of those artists see it as an upside to not have that training so as not to pigeonhole their own creativity. 

None of it is good or bad, it just is. Once again, it's ok to not like it, but just admit that it comes down to your taste and not the talent of the musicians. For every band that actually reaches for something, like black midi, Bubblemath, you get some band that professes to love Mussorgsky and Yes and it just sounds like rehash after rehash (Karfagen, Karmakanic, etc.).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 00:42
^ There definitely is "good" and "bad" music out there, objectively. But it takes a lot of experience to be able to assess the quality, and we all have our biases in how we determine and weigh the criteria. Some people are biased heavily towards the classic prog style, if there even is such a thing (even classic Yes sound really different from classic Genesis, for example). And some people are also biased towards the classic musicians they grew up listening to, and against newer generations of musicians which they feel are like imposters, claiming previous discoveries as their own. Then on the other hand there are those who look for experimentation above all else, nothing can sound like it's been done before, resulting in dissonant/noisy music that is practically void of (musical) substance. 

To me, this all seems silly. Just listen to a release and you'll know, intuitively, if you found it to be bad, good, great or even awesome. Listen to it again after some time, maybe also under different circumstances, and your feeling about it may change. You can add some analysis on top, but IMHO the best we can do is to just listen and communicate how we felt about what we heard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fuxi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 01:10
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

The future of prog is already here. It is much heavier than the prog bands of the 70s. And when us Olds (I'm 63) die, there won't be as many listening to ELP, Camel, Genesis, and similar bands.

Some may fare better than others, but I don't see Henry Cow or National Health getting played much.


Henry Cow and National Health have NEVER been played much. I grew up in the 1970s, and other than me there was only ONE person who liked them in our entire school. But Hatfield and the North and National Health especially keep influencing younger new bands, which shows SOME people are still discovering AND loving them. They're always going to be a minority taste, just like (for example) Flann O'Brien's novels or Utagawa Kuniyoshi's woodblock prints, but albums such as OF QUEUES AND CURES sound so fresh and imaginative they'll always find new converts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 02:36
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

Prog will last until the end of time. Just like Bach, Mozart and Beethoven.
Mark my words.

How will we mark your words if we're all long gone?


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Archisorcerus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 03:21
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

Prog will last until the end of time. Just like Bach, Mozart and Beethoven.
Mark my words.

How will we mark your words if we're all long gone?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 04:38
Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

Prog will last until the end of time. Just like Bach, Mozart and Beethoven.
Mark my words.

How will we mark your words if we're all long gone?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 06:45
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

The future belongs to the young. 
...

Hi,

With one HUGE difference. The young tend to do their own thing, not someone else's!

You really think Stravinsky would have gotten where he did by doing some other local, and known music of the time? 

It's not, necessarily, about being young ... it's about being "stubborn" enough to do your own thing, and not give a cahoot about anything else. Weird that you STILL don't see that in the ranks of Progressive Music, specially in the late 60's and early 70's ... very few of them played covers, and just went out their own way. I kinda do not think of The Nice, or later ELP playing "covers" in fun stuff that gave them a mental break! 

The really special progressive folks NEVER played covers or anyone else's material!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2024 at 06:53
^ Hard to parse, I'm assuming there are a couple of extraneous "not"s in there. 

BTW: Stravinsky had all sorts of musical influences, Tchaikovsky for example.
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