Seriously folks ....

As a relative newcomer to the PA community, I've come to a point where I don't see the point of contributing to threads or polls, or even starting new ones.  There are some interesting posts, but they are few & far between. Too often, the main responses are either "yeah, man; or no, you're wrong"; the other extreme is the almost personal interpretation that brings out a close-minded & sometimes vicious argument that aims to demean the other person intelligence of taste.
I have at times paraphrased other peoples'  taglines (that little phrase at the bottom of a post that is usually an automatic part of their message), These are usually serious quotes or sometimes (rarely) humorous phrases that I suppose are to give us an insight in to that person's personality. I have seemingly made the error of re-phrasing some of them in a more humorous manner, not to make fun of the person, but rather as a way demonstrating that our little "discussions" are not about to cure the world's problems, nor are they in any way able to determine who is better or best (contributor or artist). I've had a private message indicating that the "target" of one of my "re-phrasings" did not take kindly to my making fun of it ; then to go on to explain the personal & honestly just a little scary meaning behind it. And this was from a senior contributor who I had been told was a very kind & helpful guide in his musical field of specialty. I've also gone through the experience of having a question  I had posed dismissed out of hand, with various responses quickly descending to a personal level (which I myself added fuel to that fire), to the point of being told that I didn't  have a clue about the subject at hand. THis from a total stranger who managed to come to this conclusion from 2 posts.These two separate persons must really have some extra sensory powers available to few that enabled them to know exactly who I am & what type of person I am (i.e. intelligence, knowledge, personality, character, intentions, etc...), as neither took the time to ask me to clarify or question whether I actually meant what they thought I meant.
These are not the only ones that I have found to be overly serious or sensitive & quick to jump to unfounded conclusions. A great example is any thread, poll, lounge that says anything positive about the Collins' era Genesis. It seems that some are completely unable to offer a retort that is not simply dismissive of the other person's opinion, but also questioning of the very possibility that anyone could disagree with them.
When I was 17, music & my favorite groups would have brought that sort of infantile response out of me. I am still as enthusiastic about music, but have matured & learned that my likes & dislikes are not OBJECTIVE, but SUBJECTIVE. Meaning, even if my knowledge of music or any genre or sub-genre, or because my music collection surpasses someone else's, that counts for absolutely nothing  in my being able to  tell others what  IS or IS NOT  good, or that their opinion is for lack of a better word "shiite" (no, not the islamic sect, but the scottish term for excrement)
Prog may be a somewhat more serious form of music. But it is just music after all.  Whether it is more complex, intellectual, experimental, psychedelic, classically or jazz or world beat influenced does not matter or raise its' impostance in relation to any other music.  Our appreciation of Mozart vs Beethoven would not make a bit of difference to those who prefer Scarlatti. If you like Bachman Turner Overdrive more than the Beatles, well guess what - you are right - about what you like better.
SO please, as a "community", if you take this music so seriouly as to commit the above infractions, take a break. Most people listen to music (artist or song or genre) because they like or find it interesting. Whether it's AC/DC or Ash Ra Temple, does not make oneself superior.
For those of you who are Gabriel era Genesis fanatics, would you find arguing over David Lee Roth vs Sammy Hagar era Van Halen as meriting the same expenditure of such emotional messages ? Both camps (genesis & van halen) who have nothing better to do but to rage in print for one side or the other have one thing in common. They are under no pressure, obligation, or requirement to love, like or even listen to the other's music. Freedom, people, freedom.
So as final adieu to the polls & lounges, so long ...
IF you want to be taken seriously, learn to admit to yourself that you're giving an opinion, totally subjective & with the outside world totally oblivious to its' supposed importance or brilliance. Before you leap to the attack, ask for clarification. If someone seems so set in their way that you could call a dogma or theology, let them play with themselves. WHo needs the aggravation & what are the chances that you are going to change their minds ?
I will still read the reviews, although I still find many to be from fans fawning over acts that are either established (Yes, I admit that Yes Close to the Edge is great, I've been listening to it for close to 30 years now) or of acts that are special because they appeal to a very select few, & that they cannot fathom why (the "every one but us" syndrome) no one else sees it the same way. Injustice is the distribution of food & wealth in this world of ours. It IS NOT the fact that your favorite group has sold less albums than Britney Spears. There are groups that I love, but are never going to achieve mass appeal for whatever reason (to me Gentle Giant should've been as big As Genesis & Yes, but they didn't, I still listen & love their albums just as much, even if most of my friends don't really "get" them, while we all enjoy Accept, but they never hit big as other HM groups of 80s such the hair farmer subgenre of hard rock)
So I think I'll go back to Gnosis, Pandora & lastfm more often now. Their ressources may be more limited, but (and this DOES NOT apply to everyone who posts here) there is also less pomposity & self-importance.

TO quote Frank Zappa, does humor belong in music ... then to re-phrase him as I think he wouldn't mind, even if he were alive - does music belong in humor.
There is another quote of his I really adore - when he was asked about others opinions, which I will self-censor to increase the chances of this actually being accepted online - " I just don't give a f**k what others think. I make the music I make. I like the music I like. THis from what many of you consider to be one of the better avant-garde composers of our time, who loved Varese, but also 50s doo-wop groups & grungy old blues men.
Tagline - It seems this Panta's Gruel was too Cruel for Youell, so with Panurge I'll make my way back from hell . (feel free to show your superiority if I've screwed up GG's lyrics)


Edited by pantacruelgruel - February 07 2007 at 17:46

It's all a good debate, don't take it too personally and just enjoy all the great people we have here

Yeah, I totally disagree with the previous poster. That's all I say now

inpraiseoffolly wrote: GODDAMNIT!  You've screwed up a Gentle Giant lyric.  They are like... the BEST BAND EVER (well, after CAN).  I think you are an AWFUL person for doing that...   But seriously, I think you have a point...   You do what's best for you, even if I would prefer you stay...

Well, if I re-phrase your tagline, would that change your mind ?
Mind you, yours is one of the better ones. IT does give a sense that you're not taking yourself too serious. Motorhead has a similar line -  I'm here tomorrow, but I'm gone today. Although I think that was a drug in-joke. I don't remember, but that might just be my short term memory ...
On the GG lyric, my apologies.  Oops I had another GG lyric as a retort, but then my mind got  caught up in the  chord changes ...

I guess I'm ok with trheads not being particulary interesting. What I can't stand is large posts.

No, seriously... I do have books that I haven't even touched yet; I don't need posts that look like another one.

May I say your post is a very eloquent and intelligent piece of work, sir.

I'm not pompous and overly-self important! It's just that everyone else here is stupid.

pantacruelgruel wrote: As a relative newcomer to the PA community, I've come to a point where I don't see the point of contributing to threads or polls, or even starting new ones.  There are some interesting posts, but they are few & far between. Too often, the main responses are either "yeah, man; or no, you're wrong"; the other extreme is the almost personal interpretation that brings out a close-minded & sometimes vicious argument that aims to demean the other person intelligence of taste. I have at times paraphrased other peoples'  taglines (that little phrase at the bottom of a post that is usually an automatic part of their message), These are usually serious quotes or sometimes (rarely) humorous phrases that I suppose are to give us an insight in to that person's personality. I have seemingly made the error of re-phrasing some of them in a more humorous manner, not to make fun of the person, but rather as a way demonstrating that our little "discussions" are not about to cure the world's problems, nor are they in any way able to determine who is better or best (contributor or artist). I've had a private message indicating that the "target" of one of my "re-phrasings" did not take kindly to my making fun of it ; then to go on to explain the personal & honestly just a little scary meaning behind it. And this was from a senior contributor who I had been told was a very kind & helpful guide in his musical field of specialty. I've also gone through the experience of having a question  I had posed dismissed out of hand, with various responses quickly descending to a personal level (which I myself added fuel to that fire), to the point of being told that I didn't  have a clue about the subject at hand. THis from a total stranger who managed to come to this conclusion from 2 posts.These two separate persons must really have some extra sensory powers available to few that enabled them to know exactly who I am & what type of person I am (i.e. intelligence, knowledge, personality, character, intentions, etc...), as neither took the time to ask me to clarify or question whether I actually meant what they thought I meant. These are not the only ones that I have found to be overly serious or sensitive & quick to jump to unfounded conclusions. A great example is any thread, poll, lounge that says anything positive about the Collins' era Genesis. It seems that some are completely unable to offer a retort that is not simply dismissive of the other person's opinion, but also questioning of the very possibility that anyone could disagree with them. When I was 17, music & my favorite groups would have brought that sort of infantile response out of me. I am still as enthusiastic about music, but have matured & learned that my likes & dislikes are not OBJECTIVE, but SUBJECTIVE. Meaning, even if my knowledge of music or any genre or sub-genre, or because my music collection surpasses someone else's, that counts for absolutely nothing  in my being able to  tell others what  IS or IS NOT  good, or that their opinion is for lack of a better word "shiite" (no, not the islamic sect, but the scottish term for excrement) Prog may be a somewhat more serious form of music. But it is just music after all.  Whether it is more complex, intellectual, experimental, psychedelic, classically or jazz or world beat influenced does not matter or raise its' impostance in relation to any other music.  Our appreciation of Mozart vs Beethoven would not make a bit of difference to those who prefer Scarlatti. If you like Bachman Turner Overdrive more than the Beatles, well guess what - you are right - about what you like better. SO please, as a "community", if you take this music so seriouly as to commit the above infractions, take a break. Most people listen to music (artist or song or genre) because they like or find it interesting. Whether it's AC/DC or Ash Ra Temple, does not make oneself superior. For those of you who are Gabriel era Genesis fanatics, would you find arguing over David Lee Roth vs Sammy Hagar era Van Halen as meriting the same expenditure of such emotional messages ? Both camps (genesis & van halen) who have nothing better to do but to rage in print for one side or the other have one thing in common. They are under no pressure, obligation, or requirement to love, like or even listen to the other's music. Freedom, people, freedom. So as final adieu to the polls & lounges, so long ... IF you want to be taken seriously, learn to admit to yourself that you're giving an opinion, totally subjective & with the outside world totally oblivious to its' supposed importance or brilliance. Before you leap to the attack, ask for clarification. If someone seems so set in their way that you could call a dogma or theology, let them play with themselves. WHo needs the aggravation & what are the chances that you are going to change their minds ? I will still read the reviews, although I still find many to be from fans fawning over acts that are either established (Yes, I admit that Yes Close to the Edge is great, I've been listening to it for close to 30 years now) or of acts that are special because they appeal to a very select few, & that they cannot fathom why (the "every one but us" syndrome) no one else sees it the same way. Injustice is the distribution of food & wealth in this world of ours. It IS NOT the fact that your favorite group has sold less albums than Britney Spears. There are groups that I love, but are never going to achieve mass appeal for whatever reason (to me Gentle Giant should've been as big As Genesis & Yes, but they didn't, I still listen & love their albums just as much, even if most of my friends don't really "get" them, while we all enjoy Accept, but they never hit big as other HM groups of 80s such the hair farmer subgenre of hard rock) So I think I'll go back to Gnosis, Pandora & lastfm more often now. Their ressources may be more limited, but (and this DOES NOT apply to everyone who posts here) there is also less pomposity & self-importance. TO quote Frank Zappa, does humor belong in music ... then to re-phrase him as I think he wouldn't mind, even if he were alive - does music belong in humor. There is another quote of his I really adore - when he was asked about others opinions, which I will self-censor to increase the chances of this actually being accepted online - " I just don't give a f**k what others think. I make the music I make. I like the music I like. THis from what many of you consider to be one of the better avant-garde composers of our time, who loved Varese, but also 50s doo-wop groups & grungy old blues men. Tagline - It seems this Panta's Gruel was too Cruel for Youell, so with Panurge I'll make my way back from hell . (feel free to show your superiority if I've screwed up GG's lyrics)

In my experience, PA has the most kind and open minded forum community I've been on. I've never felt like someone was posting threatening comments or anything like that, which is unusual for internet forums. Perhaps if you've felt that way, then there was just a misunderstanding. It's hard to know a person's intentions if you've never even met them.

As for the whole objective/subjective thing, I don't believe that anyone really thinks their music is objectively better, even if you say something like it is. Not every post has to be followed by an IMO (in my opinion) because it's almost impossible not to say something that isn't just an opinion, and I think that's generally understood.

Here's an objective sounding question:
Do you think that the music you listen to is better than everyone elses?

Here's an objective sounding answer:
Yes

Here's the actual subjective meaning of the answer:
Yes, the music I listen to is better...FOR ME.

It's really impossible to make an objective evaluation about music, because music doesn't have a well defined function. The purpose of music is inherently different for each individual. Some people listen to music as background music. Some people listen to music to make them feel a certain way. Others are looking at music in a critical/artistic sense. If music doesn't have a singular function that is consistent for each individual, then you CANNOT make an objective value judgment about it. In other words, nobody can say objectively whether or not certain music is good because there's always the question good at what??

Things can only be assigned value based on how they fulfill their function, and if that function changes from person to person, then it is impossible to make objective claims about it.

Anyway, sorry to get so heavy but I just don't have a problem with people saying their music is better because even if they don't mean it to be a subjective comment, it actually is. That being said, I think most people don't try to make objective claims anyway.

If you want, you can start using the acronym with me.

DGYPIAB

I'll let you figure it out .

well, im new here, and i quite like the place. unlike most prog boards, i dont really sense this "elitist" attitude that a lot of prog fans can have.


so i give this place my thumbs up..