Dream Theater - the reasons

diseasedmind wrote: Certif1ed wrote: diseasedmind wrote: They ARE musical geniouses whever you like it or not No they aren't. What exactly is it that they do that is genius? You like them, fair enough. But genius is a bit strong to describe some shredding, some ballads and a few Metallica riffs im sorry thats just ignorance, saying just shredding, prooves your jealous,they dont just shred, and u cnat shred a keyboard anyways a few metallica riffs, thats bullsh*t, i cant think of anywhere they nick a tallica riff, peruvian skies is abit like metallica, but not exactly the same. I'm not just saying their geniouses cause i like em, but they just are! I think, prog fans dont like dt cause their metal, ooohhh shock horror!!! they must be bad their their metal!!!

I bow to your wisdom, but if I may, I'd like to ignorantly point out a couple of teeny flaws in your logic;

1) I'm not jealous - I can play keyboards well enough to impress examiners, and I don't really want to play guitar in that style. Depends on how you define shredding, but it means playing fast on the guitar, so I guess it means the same for keyboards - or it could if I wanted it to.

2) Read my review on Images and Words to see where the Metallica riffs are - and feel free to dispute them, if you think I'm wrong.

3) You are, in fact, saying they're "geniouses", because you like them.

4) Although I'm not sure what a "genious" is...

5) I'm very keen on metal - I'm a big fan of Cradle of Filth, for example, who I think should be in the archives.

6) Please read a book on grammar.

Certif1ed wrote: 5) I'm very keen on metal - I'm a big fan of Cradle of Filth, for example, who I think should be in the archives.

Edited by Valarius

Valarius wrote: Certif1ed wrote: 5) I'm very keen on metal - I'm a big fan of Cradle of Filth, for example, who I think should be in the archives.

 

 

Valarius wrote: Also, the open E riff at the beginning of "Metropolis", or the end of "One" isn't nicked. It's an open E riff. Most bands do them.

Doing them's unoriginal then, no?

Wow, how's this whole fiasco for a debate?? Dream Theater is easily one of the most, if not the most, polarizing band in the prog scene today. I've always been a fan...I consider prog-rock and prog-metal two different beasts altogether. I can easily see why most people would not like Dream Theater, but it is harder to pinpoint how so many proggies hate them, but i do have a few thoughts:

1.) Changes of direction - It's hard to stay consistently with a band when their 2nd CD is their masterpiece, and every CD after that can be seen as almost a radical change from their previous record. Train of Thought and Images and Words are very much different in substance, but anyone that listens with open ears can easily see that the same band is responsible for both. A lot of people have a fit when their favorite band changes styles, and we all know change = bad (I'm being sarcastic people). While I don't necessairly approve of this new heavier direction of Dream Theater, and Train of Thought is easily at the bottom of the list of my favorite Dream Theater albums, that doesn't mean I'm going to turn around and become a hater, because I still respect and admire their technical skill. Which brings me to my next point...

2.) Musicianship getting in the way of "songs" - i have to be in the right mood to listen to most Dream Theater albums. With all the guitar and keyboard masturbation going on, the muddly too-fast-for-notes bass playing, and of course the Portnoy monster on full tilt, DT's music can be and has gotten tiresome. They are not a band to listen to for that 4 minute pop-prog song (course I don't know what prog band IS), but I do admit that the improve solos do get tedious sometimes. Not live though...they're always a blast there

3.) Popularity - Dream Theater is one of the most succesful prog bands ever, no one can deny that. Even if you don't care for prog or listen to it at all, you've may have heard of Dream Theater. Some people do get angry when their sacred supposedly cult-ish hobbies and whatnot are discovered by the masses, and Dream Theater is a good example of the crossover between prog fan's dream to every head-banger's favorite band. One loses their sense of elitism when the masses discover one of their secrets, believe me I know. Look no further than the impending "Gigantour" with Dream Theater and....Megadeth?!?! I'm happy for Dream Theater pushing their metal boundaries, though, and I'm glad that some people are taking notice of their great talents, even though their only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

Like I said, even with all these complaints I AM a huge fan of Dream Theater and probably always will be, unless James Labrie starts singing death metal growls or something hehe. But I am enough of a realist to see that DT's appeal does have its ending point and can easily see why many people get pissed off at the over-the-top soloing and whatnot. I go for that kinda stuff, though

Cygnus X-2 wrote: Valarius wrote: Also, the open E riff at the beginning of "Metropolis", or the end of "One" isn't nicked. It's an open E riff. You are talking about the part in One where Ulrich begins the double bass, right? If so: I agree that that part doesn't sound like Metropolis. the One Riff is E to an F. The Metropolis one goes from E to F# (some variation of it). If not: Disregard this post.

I don't have the two tracks to hand right now to verify the actual notes - but the riff's the same, even if one note out of the two is changed. That riff is all about the rhythm, and I can think of no band that played that riff/rhythm before Metallica - indeed, it's a hallmark of that period of Metallica that they created so many original riffs.

I also pinpointed the main riff from "...And Justice For All" in my review - true I was lazy about a few of the others, but there's no denying it - like Marillion plundered "Apocalypse in 9/8" for the second to last section of "Grendel", DT used several Metallica riffs virtually unchanged on Images and Words.

 

Okay... you keep going on about how SO many of DT's riffs come from metallica (as if they're one of DT's biggest influences, eh?). Might as well ask you... list me every single specific riff that happens to be a rip off. Just for kicks. The only song in I&W that sounds remotely close to Metallica is Pull Me Under. Metropolis doesn't come close.

I think DT was actually accused of ripping off Pantera's Walk on the TOT album, believe it or not... the transition to the second part of this Dying Soul sounds slightly similar. But "exactly the same!!!"? Ah, I don't think so. It doesn't even last 30 seconds in the song anyway.

You just disregard DT's originality completely, and try to scope out "flaws" that really don't hinder the music... having a riff that seems similar to something you've heard before, big deal. After SOOO many years of music, you can compare ANYTHING to something. We all have our influences. And DT's made a hell of alot out of it.

And no, refraining from picking bands apart with these insignificant factors doesn't make it any less worth discussing.

Edited by mr_freeze338

mr_freeze338 wrote: Okay... you keep going on about how SO many of DT's riffs come from metallica (as if they're one of DT's biggest influences, eh?). Might as well ask you... list me every single specific riff that happens to be a rip off. Just for kicks. The only song in I&W that sounds remotely close to Metallica is Pull Me Under. Metropolis doesn't come close.

Nice try, but you'll never get a specific answer.

Well I like Images annd words myself and I dont care anymore

DT's my fav prog metal band so SHUT UP YOU MEANIES!

petrucci is a very good guitarist. he doesn't only play fast all the time! listen to the "under a glass moon" solo for example! it's perfect IMHO!