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Blacksword 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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 Posted: January 20 2009 at 01:47 |
 Dean wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
You know what's really interesting is that you (Israeli's and Palestinians) have a conflict that has been going on for ages. It seems that the situation in northern Ireland had been going on for a while though not as long, but they finally reconciled for the most part. Here's to the hope that y'all might achieve peace in 2009. Wiping one or the other off the planet isn't an option. And hey, we might all collectively do that to ourselves anyway. |
Although the Northern Ireland Troubles that officially ended with the Belfast Agreement of 1998 ran for something like 30 years, it has a history of sectarian violence going back 400 years and the current peace, as someone said earlier, is an uneasy one. Even though there are superficial similarities, I don't think the parallels between Gaza and Northern Ireland are that close. |
Indeed. The UK never carpet bombed the province in a bid to kill a few hundred militants. We made mistakes, errors of judgement, and committed downright war crimes leading to the loss of innocent life (Bloody Sunday) but we never launched missile attacks on schools.
My own cynicism leads me to believe that this may have been different had Northern Ireland been populated with Arab/Muslims rather than white Christians, but there you go...
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omri
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
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Posted: January 20 2009 at 08:48 |
Blacksword wrote:
Dean wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
You know what's really interesting is that you (Israeli's and Palestinians) have a conflict that has been going on for ages. It seems that the situation in northern Ireland had been going on for a while though not as long, but they finally reconciled for the most part. Here's to the hope that y'all might achieve peace in 2009. Wiping one or the other off the planet isn't an option. And hey, we might all collectively do that to ourselves anyway. |
Although the Northern Ireland Troubles that officially ended with the Belfast Agreement of 1998 ran for something like 30 years, it has a history of sectarian violence going back 400 years and the current peace, as someone said earlier, is an uneasy one. Even though there are superficial similarities, I don't think the parallels between Gaza and Northern Ireland are that close. |
Indeed. The UK never carpet bombed the province in a bid to kill a few hundred militants. We made mistakes, errors of judgement, and committed downright war crimes leading to the loss of innocent life (Bloody Sunday) but we never launched missile attacks on schools.
Well, you quit carpet bombing after Dresden that's true.
I don't know what they show you at TV in your place but there were no carpet bombing in Gaza. Every smart bomb used against an exact aim. The thing is that a bomb is as smart as the guy who sends it and not all of them were so smart unfortunately.
Again, your judgement is based on the feeling that your military is better moral wise but there are many evidences from the 20th century that shows you are wrong (including some killings the British army made in Israel of an unarmed people).
My own cynicism leads me to believe that this may have been different had Northern Ireland been populated with Arab/Muslims rather than white Christians, but there you go... |
The real difference is that in northern Ireland there are Catholics and Protestants mixed together so there's a good chance to hit the wrong ones. That's why you did not carpet bomb there.
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omri
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omri
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
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Posted: January 20 2009 at 08:51 |
Peter wrote:
omri wrote:
Peter, If you know you are clever than a stranger's claim else should not offend you that much.
I don't think you ment it but the example of smoking hit right on target ! |
Such a restrained response would seem to dwell within the realm of wisdom, though -- not cleverness. I didn't claim to suffer from a surfeit of that rare commodity! 
Again, omri, I wasn't really offended or mad. I actually had FUN here tonight -- those who know me better here will understand that.  (Though it was a little unsporting of me, I'll admit -- sort of the intellectual equivalent of shooting fish in a barrel.)
And that's me OUT of this minefield of a thread -- for good, I hope! Thanks! |
That's O.K. with me. I'm quite hot blooded myself.
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omri
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omri
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
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Posted: January 21 2009 at 12:18 |
Hello all,
Just wanted to inform you that as I thought the supreme court in Israel allowed the arab parties to participate in the elections.
As I said, it was a stupid and illegal decision and it was cancelled.
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omri
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mystic fred
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
Status: Offline
Points: 4252
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Posted: January 21 2009 at 12:28 |
The devastation caused in Gaza is heartbreaking, and stories coming over the news of the shooting of women and children surrendering to soldiers (BBC news this evening) is horrendous 
the billions of pounds worth of gold sitting in Swiss banks stolen by the Nazis during WW2 should be released to Gaza to help rebuild their country, and UN troops should be stationed there to ensure no more incursions by Israel.  .
Edited by mystic fred - January 21 2009 at 12:30
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 Prog Archives Tour Van 
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: January 21 2009 at 17:18 |
mystic fred wrote:
The devastation caused in Gaza is heartbreaking, and stories coming over the news of the shooting of women and children surrendering to soldiers (BBC news this evening) is horrendous
the billions of pounds worth of gold sitting in Swiss banks stolen by the Nazis during WW2 should be released to Gaza to help rebuild their country, and UN troops should be stationed there to ensure no more incursions by Israel. .
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First off, I seriously can't see how they didn't bring this on themselves. To me, the fact that they elected Hamas into power is a really good sign that either: 1) they're uneducated and don't learn from the past, or 2) they don't really want peace. Also, I like how you just assume the news reports to be true. Last I checked they still haven't allowed reporters into any of the war zones, so how do you know that said information is correct? I for one seriously doubt it and wouldn't be surprised if it was Hamas killing those women and children or twisting/exaggerating those reports. I also wonder what the Israelis who have had to endure those rockets for all these years would say to you about wanting to help the very people who want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: January 21 2009 at 17:19 |
Dean wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
You know what's really interesting is that you (Israeli's and Palestinians) have a conflict that has been going on for ages. It seems that the situation in northern Ireland had been going on for a while though not as long, but they finally reconciled for the most part. Here's to the hope that y'all might achieve peace in 2009. Wiping one or the other off the planet isn't an option. And hey, we might all collectively do that to ourselves anyway. |
Although the Northern Ireland Troubles that officially ended with the Belfast Agreement of 1998 ran for something like 30 years, it has a history of sectarian violence going back 400 years and the current peace, as someone said earlier, is an uneasy one. Even though there are superficial similarities, I don't think the parallels between Gaza and Northern Ireland are that close. |
Consider this, modern Israel was founded in '47, granted 60 years instead of 30. Both groups in each conflict have common ancestors historically. Religion is a major factor in the conflicts. The hate between groups is and/or was being passed on generationally. And, oh yeah, all four groups like potatoes?  All I'm saying is give peas a chance. Leave it to me to whizz on the electric fence of Israeli/Palestinian, Irish/English, or even French/English Canadian relations.
Edited by Slartibartfast - January 21 2009 at 17:29
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10748
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Posted: January 21 2009 at 17:37 |
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
The devastation caused in Gaza is heartbreaking, and stories coming over the news of the shooting of women and children surrendering to soldiers (BBC news this evening) is horrendous
the billions of pounds worth of gold sitting in Swiss banks stolen by the Nazis during WW2 should be released to Gaza to help rebuild their country, and UN troops should be stationed there to ensure no more incursions by Israel. .
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First off, I seriously can't see how they didn't bring this on themselves. To me, the fact that they elected Hamas into power is a really good sign that either: 1) they're uneducated and don't learn from the past, or 2) they don't really want peace. Also, I like how you just assume the news reports to be true. Last I checked they still haven't allowed reporters into any of the war zones, so how do you know that said information is correct? I for one seriously doubt it and wouldn't be surprised if it was Hamas killing those women and children or twisting/exaggerating those reports.I also wonder what the Israelis who have had to endure those rockets for all these years would say to you about wanting to help the very people who want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. |
Do you really think that Hamas killed Palestinian women and children?
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: January 21 2009 at 18:07 |
Easy Money wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
The devastation caused in Gaza is heartbreaking, and stories coming over the news of the shooting of women and children surrendering to soldiers (BBC news this evening) is horrendous
the billions of pounds worth of gold sitting in Swiss banks stolen by the Nazis during WW2 should be released to Gaza to help rebuild their country, and UN troops should be stationed there to ensure no more incursions by Israel. .
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First off, I seriously can't see how they didn't bring this on themselves. To me, the fact that they elected Hamas into power is a really good sign that either: 1) they're uneducated and don't learn from the past, or 2) they don't really want peace. Also, I like how you just assume the news reports to be true. Last I checked they still haven't allowed reporters into any of the war zones, so how do you know that said information is correct? I for one seriously doubt it and wouldn't be surprised if it was Hamas killing those women and children or twisting/exaggerating those reports.I also wonder what the Israelis who have had to endure those rockets for all these years would say to you about wanting to help the very people who want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. |
Do you really think that Hamas killed Palestinian women and children? |
Literally, no. Figuratively, yes. They use innocents as human shields and then coerce Israel into attacking them in these types of scenarios. So I guess my answer to your question would be, "In a manner of speaking, yes".
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10748
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Posted: January 21 2009 at 18:52 |
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
The devastation caused in Gaza is heartbreaking, and stories coming over the news of the shooting of women and children surrendering to soldiers (BBC news this evening) is horrendous
the billions of pounds worth of gold sitting in Swiss banks stolen by the Nazis during WW2 should be released to Gaza to help rebuild their country, and UN troops should be stationed there to ensure no more incursions by Israel. .
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First off, I seriously can't see how they didn't bring this on themselves. To me, the fact that they elected Hamas into power is a really good sign that either: 1) they're uneducated and don't learn from the past, or 2) they don't really want peace. Also, I like how you just assume the news reports to be true. Last I checked they still haven't allowed reporters into any of the war zones, so how do you know that said information is correct? I for one seriously doubt it and wouldn't be surprised if it was Hamas killing those women and children or twisting/exaggerating those reports.I also wonder what the Israelis who have had to endure those rockets for all these years would say to you about wanting to help the very people who want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. |
Do you really think that Hamas killed Palestinian women and children? |
Literally, no. Figuratively, yes. They use innocents as human shields and then coerce Israel into attacking them in these types of scenarios. So I guess my answer to your question would be, "In a manner of speaking, yes". |
That's not what your first post said, I'm referring to what you said in your original post.
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: January 21 2009 at 21:20 |
Easy Money wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
The devastation caused in Gaza is heartbreaking, and stories coming over the news of the shooting of women and children surrendering to soldiers (BBC news this evening) is horrendous
the billions of pounds worth of gold sitting in Swiss banks stolen by the Nazis during WW2 should be released to Gaza to help rebuild their country, and UN troops should be stationed there to ensure no more incursions by Israel. .
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First off, I seriously can't see how they didn't bring this on themselves. To me, the fact that they elected Hamas into power is a really good sign that either: 1) they're uneducated and don't learn from the past, or 2) they don't really want peace. Also, I like how you just assume the news reports to be true. Last I checked they still haven't allowed reporters into any of the war zones, so how do you know that said information is correct? I for one seriously doubt it and wouldn't be surprised if it was Hamas killing those women and children or twisting/exaggerating those reports.I also wonder what the Israelis who have had to endure those rockets for all these years would say to you about wanting to help the very people who want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. |
Do you really think that Hamas killed Palestinian women and children? |
Literally, no. Figuratively, yes. They use innocents as human shields and then coerce Israel into attacking them in these types of scenarios. So I guess my answer to your question would be, "In a manner of speaking, yes". |
That's not what your first post said, I'm referring to what you said in your original post. |
Do you think Hamas are not capable of killing women and children? Even if they are Palestinians? Do you really think that Israeli soldiers killed surrenderring women and children?
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: January 21 2009 at 22:23 |
Easy Money wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
The devastation caused in Gaza is heartbreaking, and stories coming over the news of the shooting of women and children surrendering to soldiers (BBC news this evening) is horrendous
the billions of pounds worth of gold sitting in Swiss banks stolen by the Nazis during WW2 should be released to Gaza to help rebuild their country, and UN troops should be stationed there to ensure no more incursions by Israel. .
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First off, I seriously can't see how they didn't bring this on themselves. To me, the fact that they elected Hamas into power is a really good sign that either: 1) they're uneducated and don't learn from the past, or 2) they don't really want peace. Also, I like how you just assume the news reports to be true. Last I checked they still haven't allowed reporters into any of the war zones, so how do you know that said information is correct? I for one seriously doubt it and wouldn't be surprised if it was Hamas killing those women and children or twisting/exaggerating those reports.I also wonder what the Israelis who have had to endure those rockets for all these years would say to you about wanting to help the very people who want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. |
Do you really think that Hamas killed Palestinian women and children? |
Literally, no. Figuratively, yes. They use innocents as human shields and then coerce Israel into attacking them in these types of scenarios. So I guess my answer to your question would be, "In a manner of speaking, yes". |
That's not what your first post said, I'm referring to what you said in your original post. |
Alright, so since trying to be nice and "politically correct" before didn't work, then my answer is that it wouldn't surprise me if Hamas killed those women and children.
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omri
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
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Posted: January 22 2009 at 03:48 |
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
The devastation caused in Gaza is heartbreaking, and stories coming over the news of the shooting of women and children surrendering to soldiers (BBC news this evening) is horrendous
the billions of pounds worth of gold sitting in Swiss banks stolen by the Nazis during WW2 should be released to Gaza to help rebuild their country, and UN troops should be stationed there to ensure no more incursions by Israel. .
|
First off, I seriously can't see how they didn't bring this on themselves. To me, the fact that they elected Hamas into power is a really good sign that either: 1) they're uneducated and don't learn from the past, or 2) they don't really want peace. Also, I like how you just assume the news reports to be true. Last I checked they still haven't allowed reporters into any of the war zones, so how do you know that said information is correct? I for one seriously doubt it and wouldn't be surprised if it was Hamas killing those women and children or twisting/exaggerating those reports.I also wonder what the Israelis who have had to endure those rockets for all these years would say to you about wanting to help the very people who want to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. |
Do you really think that Hamas killed Palestinian women and children? |
Literally, no. Figuratively, yes. They use innocents as human shields and then coerce Israel into attacking them in these types of scenarios. So I guess my answer to your question would be, "In a manner of speaking, yes". |
That's not what your first post said, I'm referring to what you said in your original post. |
Alright, so since trying to be nice and "politically correct" before didn't work, then my answer is that it wouldn't surprise me if Hamas killed those women and children.
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In this case they don't need to do such things. All they need to do is to tell the story with no evidence and lots of people will believe them. Hamas have killed brutally many people who were claimed to be spyes for Israel. No trial was ever made to prove that claim.
Again, this world is not black and white.
However UN guys are there for years and never prevented any violence from both sides.
And, the saddest of all IMO is that the funding they will get would not be used for fixing any dammage but to obtain more missiles and weapons.
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omri
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: January 22 2009 at 08:52 |
mystic fred wrote:
The devastation caused in Gaza is heartbreaking, and stories coming over the news of the shooting of women and children surrendering to soldiers (BBC news this evening) is horrendous
the billions of pounds worth of gold sitting in Swiss banks stolen by the Nazis during WW2 should be released to Gaza to help rebuild their country, and UN troops should be stationed there to ensure no more incursions by Israel. .
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I can't understand how histerical nonsense of this sort can trigger a serious discussion.
The Israelies have the same Western values as the rest of the civilized world does. Respect for human life is one of them. They don't kill innocent people on purpose unlike Arab terrorists.
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mystic fred
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
Status: Offline
Points: 4252
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Posted: January 22 2009 at 09:25 |
IVNORD wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
The devastation caused in Gaza is heartbreaking, and stories coming over the news of the shooting of women and children surrendering to soldiers (BBC news this evening) is horrendous
the billions of pounds worth of gold sitting in Swiss banks stolen by the Nazis during WW2 should be released to Gaza to help rebuild their country, and UN troops should be stationed there to ensure no more incursions by Israel. .
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I can't understand how histerical nonsense of this sort can trigger a serious discussion.
The Israelies have the same Western values as the rest of the civilized world does. Respect for human life is one of them. They don't kill innocent people on purpose unlike Arab terrorists. |
it wasn't hysterical nonsense i'm afraid, it was a real BBC news item - and is being investigated.
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Prog Archives Tour Van
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: January 22 2009 at 14:22 |
mystic fred wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
The devastation caused in Gaza is heartbreaking, and stories coming over the news of the shooting of women and children surrendering to soldiers (BBC news this evening) is horrendous
the billions of pounds worth of gold sitting in Swiss banks stolen by the Nazis during WW2 should be released to Gaza to help rebuild their country, and UN troops should be stationed there to ensure no more incursions by Israel. .
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I can't understand how histerical nonsense of this sort can trigger a serious discussion.
The Israelies have the same Western values as the rest of the civilized world does. Respect for human life is one of them. They don't kill innocent people on purpose unlike Arab terrorists. |
it wasn't hysterical nonsense i'm afraid, it was a real BBC news item - and is being investigated.
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Oh, I see. It's the BBC. Therefore they're never going to get a story wrong. They're always perfect people and perfect reporters. I agree with IVNORD. Reports like that are just a joke. I would take you more seriously if you gave your own opinion instead of giving us news flashes. Then we could have a serious discussion about this topic.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10748
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Posted: January 22 2009 at 17:08 |
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
The devastation caused in Gaza is heartbreaking, and stories coming over the news of the shooting of women and children surrendering to soldiers (BBC news this evening) is horrendous
the billions of pounds worth of gold sitting in Swiss banks stolen by the Nazis during WW2 should be released to Gaza to help rebuild their country, and UN troops should be stationed there to ensure no more incursions by Israel. .
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I can't understand how histerical nonsense of this sort can trigger a serious discussion.
The Israelies have the same Western values as the rest of the civilized world does. Respect for human life is one of them. They don't kill innocent people on purpose unlike Arab terrorists. |
it wasn't hysterical nonsense i'm afraid, it was a real BBC news item - and is being investigated.
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Oh, I see. It's the BBC. Therefore they're never going to get a story wrong. They're always perfect people and perfect reporters. I agree with IVNORD. Reports like that are just a joke.I would take you more seriously if you gave your own opinion instead of giving us news flashes. Then we could have a serious discussion about this topic. |
So I suppose when you go to your information scource of choice, you would rather hear someone's opinion about what happened rather than what happened.
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IVNORD
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2006
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
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Posted: January 22 2009 at 17:16 |
Easy Money wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
The devastation caused in Gaza is heartbreaking, and stories coming over the news of the shooting of women and children surrendering to soldiers (BBC news this evening) is horrendous
the billions of pounds worth of gold sitting in Swiss banks stolen by the Nazis during WW2 should be released to Gaza to help rebuild their country, and UN troops should be stationed there to ensure no more incursions by Israel. .
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I can't understand how histerical nonsense of this sort can trigger a serious discussion.
The Israelies have the same Western values as the rest of the civilized world does. Respect for human life is one of them. They don't kill innocent people on purpose unlike Arab terrorists. |
it wasn't hysterical nonsense i'm afraid, it was a real BBC news item - and is being investigated.
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Oh, I see. It's the BBC. Therefore they're never going to get a story wrong. They're always perfect people and perfect reporters. I agree with IVNORD. Reports like that are just a joke.I would take you more seriously if you gave your own opinion instead of giving us news flashes. Then we could have a serious discussion about this topic. |
So I suppose when you go to your information scource of choice, you would rather hear someone's opinion about what happened rather than what happened. |
You posses a cunning skill of twisting somebody else's words to suit your goal...
By the way, you haven't answered my question: Do you really think the Israeli soldiers killed those women and children???
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66837
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Posted: January 22 2009 at 17:20 |
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Yes.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10748
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Posted: January 22 2009 at 17:22 |
IVNORD wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
IVNORD wrote:
mystic fred wrote:
The devastation caused in Gaza is heartbreaking, and stories coming over the news of the shooting of women and children surrendering to soldiers (BBC news this evening) is horrendous
the billions of pounds worth of gold sitting in Swiss banks stolen by the Nazis during WW2 should be released to Gaza to help rebuild their country, and UN troops should be stationed there to ensure no more incursions by Israel. .
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I can't understand how histerical nonsense of this sort can trigger a serious discussion.
The Israelies have the same Western values as the rest of the civilized world does. Respect for human life is one of them. They don't kill innocent people on purpose unlike Arab terrorists. |
it wasn't hysterical nonsense i'm afraid, it was a real BBC news item - and is being investigated.
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Oh, I see. It's the BBC. Therefore they're never going to get a story wrong. They're always perfect people and perfect reporters. I agree with IVNORD. Reports like that are just a joke.I would take you more seriously if you gave your own opinion instead of giving us news flashes. Then we could have a serious discussion about this topic. |
So I suppose when you go to your information scource of choice, you would rather hear someone's opinion about what happened rather than what happened. |
You posses a cunning skill of twisting somebody else's words to suit your goal...
By the way, you haven't answered my question: Do you really think the Israeli soldiers killed those women and children??? |
I didn't twist his words at all, he clearly stated he wanted opinions, not news, and I don't know who killed those children and neither do you.
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Israel/Gaza: Calling all UK forum members.
