Are ITCOTCK symphonic influences overlooked?

ExittheLemming wrote: I experienced one of those 500 Internal error thingies when I tried to post my reply (so the order is probaly skewed by the software glitch thang y'all)

ExittheLemming wrote: I experienced one of those 500 Internal error thingies when I tried to post my reply (so the order is probaly skewed by the software glitch thang y'all)

Me too.

As usual, due to circumstances beyond my control, I always sem to miss the most interresting parts of the discussions, like that of last night. But in retrospect, I would like to say that I feel ITCotKC's status always gets a bit deluted when compared to the other prog works happening at the time as the ITCotCK album was multi genre where the other groups stuck to basically one mode of music, be it symphonic, rock/fusion or what ever. (I'm not sure how Schzoid Man or Moonchild wasn't considered progressive by one member, but that's a topic for another day). I also feel that a chink in ITCotCK armor was the fact that is an album that was largely abandoned by it's creators. Giles and MacDonald ran like hell after the album's tour was finished, convinced that they could start a similar super group, Lake had visions of ELP or something other than KC and Fripp himself disowned the album, claiming it as a beginning that he should musically move on from. (and for years he refused to acknowledge that the album was even progressive!) I believe these former members have done enough to delute the album's status without looking for other avenues, even though their influences may be minor, they do truly exist.





Edited by SteveG - July 03 2014 at 09:09

Dean wrote: ExittheLemming wrote: I experienced one of those 500 Internal error thingies when I tried to post my reply (so the order is probaly skewed by the software glitch thang y'all) Me too, lots of the damn things. Using this site is becoming increasingly frustrating.

cstack3 wrote: Well, I for one think that ITCOCK's jazz influences are overlooked!  It was a very unusual musical blend of symphonic and jazz-rock fusion, with touches of classical guitar etc.   "Giles, Giles & Fripp" may have been one of the earliest prog works, I think PA calls it "proto-prog" or something.

I agree CS, I just think that KC may have made a more definitive jazz statement on later albums. What's your take on that?

cstack3 wrote: SteveG wrote: cstack3 wrote: Well, I for one think that ITCOCK's jazz influences are overlooked!  It was a very unusual musical blend of symphonic and jazz-rock fusion, with touches of classical guitar etc.   "Giles, Giles & Fripp" may have been one of the earliest prog works, I think PA calls it "proto-prog" or something.   I agree CS, I just think that KC may have made a more definitive jazz statement on later albums. What's your take on that? I do agree!  For example, "Cirkus" was certainly a jazz masterpiece in my mind.  However, Greg Lake's contribution as a jazz-fusion bassist is rarely discussed, it still blows my mind that he was that fast, and that good, at such a young age!!   I saw Fripp talk a bit about "Schizoid Man" and the composition thinking that went into it....he explained the chord structures to us and then, with an impish grin, he exclaimed "Now, everyone SOLO!!"  We loved it!!  (that was a music store audience during his "Drive to 1981" tour).

Yea man! That says it all! And Lake certainly gets little credit for the lightning work he did on Schizoid Man, which I'm not really sure he ever bettered later on. Great post. CS. Thanks.


Edited by SteveG - July 02 2014 at 19:03

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: SteveG wrote: Some people view king Crimson's 1969 album In The Court Of The Crimson King in isolation as just another early experimental Prog album without serious influence on other albums of it's era. I would like to contend that ITCOCK's symphonic based songs Epitaph and the album's title track were influential on later symphonic and classically based Prog groups such as Yes and ELP that developed or formed a few years later then ITCOCK.  I'm not one of them. 1.- It's obvious that despite 21'st Century... The structure of the album is clearly Symphonic, all the tracks except the one mentioned are examples of early Symphonic, with melodic passages, orchestral sound, nice organ sections but with enough complexity to be considered Prog 2.- It's an historical fact tat when Peter Gabriel entered to the Trespass sessions, he carried an ITCOTCK album under the arm, and Tony Banks admits that this album is an influence for the new sound they were developing We became more interested in longer form – allowing ourselves to go a few other places. The groups that were influencing us were groups that were doing a bit more of that kind of thing, like Procul Harum and Family, and Fairport Convention. When we were writing Trespass, In The Court Of The Crimson King came out, and that had influence on us, definitely. http://www.uncut.co.uk/genesis/genesiss-tony-banks-and-mike-rutherford-talk-to-uncut-feature   Bob Carruthers in his book  Talks about the huge influence that ITCOTCK had in Genesis, to the point to be determinant in the new sound. SteveG wrote: Many would probably point to the Moody Blues 1967 album Nights In White Satin as the obvious symphonic influence for late 60's pop and rock albums, but I disagree as it seems that the Moody Blues NIWS influenced relatively few including the Moody Blues themselves, as they quickly eschewed their own symphonic sound in favor of psychedelic/pop on their following 1968 album In Seach Of the Lost Chord which featured odes to transcendence, LSD and Timothy Leary. In 1969  As you I disagree, IMHO The Moody Blues were a Psyche/Pop band who got remotely close to Prog when Moraz< replaced Pinder for the release of "Long Distance Voyager" in 1981. Always thought that Days of Future Passed was a POP album with an artifuicial Orchestral intro and coda on each song, the "Symphonic" element was never part of their music, the prove is that songs as The Afternoon and The Night becvame (Thuesday Afternoon and Nights in White satin), two purely POP hits (Good ones) when the band re-released them as hit singles in their many compilation albums.  With this I don't say that ITCOTCK was the first Symphonic album, The Nice have this honor, butb they were not as influential as King Crimson. Cheers Iván

Somehow I missed this thread......blame it on my old age.

SteveG wrote: Some people view king Crimson's 1969 album In The Court Of The Crimson King in isolation as just another early experimental Prog album without serious influence on other albums of it's era. ...