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Genesis and Melody

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Frankh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frankh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2019 at 22:48
Misenum, your friend has tin ear.

Probably a nice person otherwise.
Perhaps finding the happy medium is harder than we know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2019 at 00:00
^ He doesn't have a tin ear, he has a common one and a common taste in music.  Nothing wrong with that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2019 at 06:28
Originally posted by cemego cemego wrote:

Maybe this person just doesn't understand complex melodies.  Early Genesis music is meant to be listened to intently, not danced to or flailed about to.   Can you whistle it?  Yes.  Will it stay in your head?  Yes.  BUT YOU HAVE TO LISTEN, NOT DANCE, NOT SING, L I S T E N.  
...

You do know that the funny story is that this is the reason why GENESIS ended up getting costumes and other things for their shows, right?

Everyone was falling asleep! And rock audiences do not come to the shows to fall asleep. Rock audiences, like us all here, come to the show to get some version of a minor excitement/orgasm, so we can take care of the girlfriend, or glass of wine later! We might like the show and remember it, but heck ... I didn't see anyone in Seattle come out of King Crimson whistling a tune from them! 

It's MUSIC, not a tune! Can you dance to it? .... YES is the answer, however it would not be a live concert ... it would be something some very advanced dance folks would do, and many of them are doing it and experimenting with all kinds of music ... except that the audience here does not believe that kind of experimentation a valuable anything in the story of the arts, and specially dance. In fact, around here, many love to trash theater, dance and everything else as non-existent and with no value whatsoever ... one of the most aggravating things about the fan-ology of it all! 

Do I go to a KC concert to listen? Yes and No. I go because I know these are some of the best musicians of my time, and I wish to pay a tribute to their ability and artistry ... why? Because "listening" to some simplistic music (watcher of the bullblue!), that has lyrics to TELL YOU WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO SEE, is not the same thing as going to see a major symphony do Mahler's 3rd Symphony in its entirety ... and there you can imagine many things more, and not be told some inane idea and story of what it is supposed to be about.

Please get off the immature idea that the "lyrics" tell you what to think ... in reality, it is sort of like a child's story, and we all know what we think of those when we grow up!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lydianlover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2019 at 11:54
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Your friend is right.  Of course technically, any notes stung together in a normally pleasing and musical way is a melody, but I think he means Gabriel's vocal complements (not to mention his lyrics) are far too complex and experimental to be easily recalled, sung, understood or immediately appreciated by most people and many musicians too.   Gabriel's later solo work is much more 'melodic' in that way.   Neither approach is better--  one could say Genesis' progressive era was compositionally superior, but artistically any of Paul Simon's work is just as good as any of Peter Gabriel's.



So you talk about a heightened sense of musical ability, but you dare to mock me for enjoying advanced music myself. Then attempt to "insult" my post with cheesy lyrics, mistaken it for the "Lydian" mode when it is in fact not?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2019 at 12:12
^ Well after all the Lydian-loving threads you have to have a sense of humor about it.  Not mocking your tastes, just having a bit of fun.  If you post you may get responses, so deal with it.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2019 at 12:14
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cemego cemego wrote:

Maybe this person just doesn't understand complex melodies.  Early Genesis music is meant to be listened to intently, not danced to or flailed about to.   Can you whistle it?  Yes.  Will it stay in your head?  Yes.  BUT YOU HAVE TO LISTEN, NOT DANCE, NOT SING, L I S T E N.  
...

You do know that the funny story is that this is the reason why GENESIS ended up getting costumes and other things for their shows, right?

Everyone was falling asleep! And rock audiences do not come to the shows to fall asleep. Rock audiences, like us all here, come to the show to get some version of a minor excitement/orgasm, so we can take care of the girlfriend, or glass of wine later! We might like the show and remember it, but heck ... I didn't see anyone in Seattle come out of King Crimson whistling a tune from them! 

It's MUSIC, not a tune! Can you dance to it? .... YES is the answer, however it would not be a live concert ... it would be something some very advanced dance folks would do, and many of them are doing it and experimenting with all kinds of music ... except that the audience here does not believe that kind of experimentation a valuable anything in the story of the arts, and specially dance. In fact, around here, many love to trash theater, dance and everything else as non-existent and with no value whatsoever ... one of the most aggravating things about the fan-ology of it all! 

Do I go to a KC concert to listen? Yes and No. I go because I know these are some of the best musicians of my time, and I wish to pay a tribute to their ability and artistry ... why? Because "listening" to some simplistic music (watcher of the bullblue!), that has lyrics to TELL YOU WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO SEE, is not the same thing as going to see a major symphony do Mahler's 3rd Symphony in its entirety ... and there you can imagine many things more, and not be told some inane idea and story of what it is supposed to be about.

Please get off the immature idea that the "lyrics" tell you what to think ... in reality, it is sort of like a child's story, and we all know what we think of those when we grow up!


Pedro, even by your standards, this is ridiculous. I have not had the patience to get to the end of the post, but the idea that Genesis commenced the story telling, costumes, and theatrical stuff because audiences fell asleep is pure and utter bollocks. Nonsense. Complete cobblers.

Gabriel, and the band, for that matter, although they tired of it by the end, wanted their concerts to be a fusion of the music and the visual aspect of the music. Art, theatrical, and progressive rock. Pretty simple really. NOT because they wanted to wake the audience up.

I bloody despair sometimes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2019 at 14:33
Well....I never got into Gabriel era Genesis in the first place for the 'melodies'....never thought that many prog rock bands were about 'melodies' to begin with or at least it wasn't something I even thought about.
Crimson is probably my favorite prog band and they even have less 'melodic' tunes than early Genesis.
If I want to hum along with a song...I'll put on the Beatles.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2019 at 01:45
Everyone here has a strange notion of melody. Melody is comprised of single notes, but it always has a harmonic relationship to a given chord progression. Even if a chord progression is not actually being played, a melody will suggest a chord progression. Melodies are note sequences driven by arpeggios. Blues leads are not melodic because the same five notes are good irrespective of the progression behind it. If it's in the same key, then it's good. To put it another way, a Blues lead does not normally suggest specific a chord progression.

Genesis did not do a lot of blues. They constructed melodies quite frequently from chords, chords that were extraordinarily innovative.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2019 at 01:50
Certainly has been the most musically stimulating discussion around here in months ~

Misenum hasn't visited since the 27th, wonder what he thinks .





Edited by Atavachron - May 01 2019 at 01:51
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2019 at 03:24
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

Everyone here has a strange notion of melody. Melody is comprised of single notes, but it always has a harmonic relationship to a given chord progression. Even if a chord progression is not actually being played, a melody will suggest a chord progression. Melodies are note sequences driven by arpeggios. Blues leads are not melodic because the same five notes are good irrespective of the progression behind it. If it's in the same key, then it's good. To put it another way, a Blues lead does not normally suggest specific a chord progression.

Genesis did not do a lot of blues. They constructed melodies quite frequently from chords, chords that were extraordinarily innovative.


I think "everyone" would have had a differnt notion of melody if it wasn't for:
Originally posted by Misenum Misenum wrote:

Awhile ago a friend of mine said he didn't like Peter Gabriel era Genesis because in his own words, "Genesis just doesn't have any melody in their music". I never quite understood what he meant by this as I don't have enough knowledge to determine just by listening if a song is melodic or not. I'm a big fan of Genesis and was wondering if anyone could explain whether or not their music tends to be melodic or not. What exactly makes a song melodic and how does that affect someones enjoyment of that particular piece of music?
... which isn't about discussing the wikipedia definition of "melody" - but something else
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frankh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2019 at 05:18
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ He doesn't have a tin ear, he has a common one and a common taste in music.  Nothing wrong with that.



He could. We don't know.

But I didn't say anything was wrong with it, either.

Hell, there are honest to God musicians with tin ears.
Perhaps finding the happy medium is harder than we know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2019 at 05:35
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cemego cemego wrote:

Maybe this person just doesn't understand complex melodies.  Early Genesis music is meant to be listened to intently, not danced to or flailed about to.   Can you whistle it?  Yes.  Will it stay in your head?  Yes.  BUT YOU HAVE TO LISTEN, NOT DANCE, NOT SING, L I S T E N.  
...

You do know that the funny story is that this is the reason why GENESIS ended up getting costumes and other things for their shows, right?

Everyone was falling asleep! And rock audiences do not come to the shows to fall asleep. Rock audiences, like us all here, come to the show to get some version of a minor excitement/orgasm, so we can take care of the girlfriend, or glass of wine later! We might like the show and remember it, but heck ... I didn't see anyone in Seattle come out of King Crimson whistling a tune from them! 

It's MUSIC, not a tune! Can you dance to it? .... YES is the answer, however it would not be a live concert ... it would be something some very advanced dance folks would do, and many of them are doing it and experimenting with all kinds of music ... except that the audience here does not believe that kind of experimentation a valuable anything in the story of the arts, and specially dance. In fact, around here, many love to trash theater, dance and everything else as non-existent and with no value whatsoever ... one of the most aggravating things about the fan-ology of it all! 

Do I go to a KC concert to listen? Yes and No. I go because I know these are some of the best musicians of my time, and I wish to pay a tribute to their ability and artistry ... why? Because "listening" to some simplistic music (watcher of the bullblue!), that has lyrics to TELL YOU WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO SEE, is not the same thing as going to see a major symphony do Mahler's 3rd Symphony in its entirety ... and there you can imagine many things more, and not be told some inane idea and story of what it is supposed to be about.

Please get off the immature idea that the "lyrics" tell you what to think ... in reality, it is sort of like a child's story, and we all know what we think of those when we grow up!


Pedro, even by your standards, this is ridiculous. I have not had the patience to get to the end of the post, but the idea that Genesis commenced the story telling, costumes, and theatrical stuff because audiences fell asleep is pure and utter bollocks. Nonsense. Complete cobblers.

Gabriel, and the band, for that matter, although they tired of it by the end, wanted their concerts to be a fusion of the music and the visual aspect of the music. Art, theatrical, and progressive rock. Pretty simple really. NOT because they wanted to wake the audience up.

I bloody despair sometimes.




Indeed. Although, one of the stated reasons for the pre-song stories was to talk over the tuning up between songs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2019 at 07:17
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

...
Pedro, even by your standards, this is ridiculous. I have not had the patience to get to the end of the post, but the idea that Genesis commenced the story telling, costumes, and theatrical stuff because audiences fell asleep is pure and utter bollocks. Nonsense. Complete cobblers.
...

There were stories that GENESIS simply was not cutting it, and after their tour with OSANNA, who was doing a lot of costumes and some theatrical stuff, they started doing costumes and creating stories. Before that, as is the case in "From Genesis to Revelation", the band was just a bunch of songs.

The main idea, that some theatrical concepts and thoughts would help the show, is not new, and has been around for millennia, so GENESIS (the band, of course!!!!!) inventing it, is a joke! And many of those ideas and thoughts have always been around Europe, in its history of the Dramatic Arts. 

I just find it annoying, and silly, when people think that the band invented that stuff, and were the audience or not falling asleep, is not my wording ... it actually came from MELODY MAKER, who did not like GENESIS before and found them pretentious, until all of a sudden they had some costumes and ... wow ... a new band ... the world has been created by the English again!

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

...
Gabriel, and the band, for that matter, although they tired of it by the end, wanted their concerts to be a fusion of the music and the visual aspect of the music. Art, theatrical, and progressive rock. Pretty simple really. ....

The idea for adding visuals to a stage show, in GENESIS' case, was a way to augment their presentation, but the last thing they wanted to do was another PF behemoth ... when some major money was being centered on the staging, instead of the music and its value. GENESIS, was a band that was pretty much a family and they would not be able to afford such extravagant expenses on staging ... but, the weird and funny thing ... they could have had film very cheaply, since video was already being used, and while not as good as the regular film at the time, it was considerably better than it was before.

IF, there was a problem, I think that the timing to create a film "story" or "visual" was prohibitive ... something that Steven Wilson, kinda does automatically with some of his work, even if some of it is rather generic and not quite about the song itself. AND, then to figure out how to make it shown on screen, would have been something of GREAT VALUE for SEBTP and TLLDOB, both great albums, but very diverse and wide in their possible story telling. TLLDOB is perfect for a film. TOTALLY. But it would require a complete change of the presentation, and it probably would not look like a rock show that fans can come over to applaud the guitar solo and the girls can woodle and coodle the lead singer!

That would have been a problem in 1975, as it is now ... the audiences "demand" this and that, and you will be damned if you do something else. Few bands could over come this, unless their reach was already so huge in both Europe and America ... that they could ignore it and create their own show, and not worry about anything else. Pink Floyd should get some credit for that ... in LA the DSOTM shows got a good review, but also there were many comments that the film and a lot of the visuals were too much, specially the lights aimed at your eyes!

The only audiences that are a problem, are the majority of rock audiences. ANY band, TODAY, trying to do something theatrical, is going to get smashed ... because many folks in this group here, are going to trash it, and not appreciate the attempt to put something together. There are exceptions, like Kate Bush, but even in her show she limited it to some of the songs, and mostly dress changes ... but generally, her stuff is almost purely VISUAL and for me, (not the same as the PA folks!) more of it would not be enough! But while some folks in London loved it for 20 shows, in America, LA, TN or NY ... it would get laughed at and not appreciated, unless someone could revive Bob Fosse to do all the dancing stuff a lot sexier and nuttier!

THERE HAS BEEN, for many years, a huge battle between a show and its presentation. YES tried it, with just lights ... and it worked for a few years. GENESIS had to use some costumes, but after a while they were interfering with the music and the continuation of the shows ... but this also stipulates that the design and concept was not thought out well, and the scene changes conflicted with the performance. FIX IT. 

But, in the early 70's the whole lighting thing, was losing its edge ... completely ... the media made sure that the shows at the Fillmore were dead and no one would ever see them again ... and it ended up giving way to what PF did and only a handful of bands even tried ... most just gave up on lights, and even today, 99 out of a 100 shows, that lighting is ridiculous ... that guy is on the flute and the light is on the guitar ... the lighting person doesn't even know the music.

It was no different then, when I was in theater doing technical stuff and lights specially. And I wanted to do a few bands, but they were afraid of too many lights and a "show" ... only to end up seeing Pink Floyd hammer their heads for their stupidity!

GENESIS gave up on their "show" and "visual" presentation, for whatever reason. I think PG wanted more, but what he did at first (I saw the first tour ... with Random Hold, I think!), was nothing ... just a dark outfit with a flashing light over his heart! WOW ... biggie, man ... biggie .... I never bothered with PG again, though I have the albums until Sledgehammer only.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2019 at 07:56
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:



Pedro, even by your standards, this is ridiculous. I have not had the patience to get to the end of the post, but the idea that Genesis commenced the story telling, costumes, and theatrical stuff because audiences fell asleep is pure and utter bollocks. Nonsense. Complete cobblers.

Gabriel, and the band, for that matter, although they tired of it by the end, wanted their concerts to be a fusion of the music and the visual aspect of the music. Art, theatrical, and progressive rock. Pretty simple really. NOT because they wanted to wake the audience up.

I bloody despair sometimes.
 
As far as I am aware, the dressing up came about so that Gabriel had something to do during the long instrumental passages. It's true they weren't the most visually stimulating band before that (Hackett and Rutherford sat down most of the time) but I doubt audiences were falling asleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barbu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2019 at 08:07
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by cemego cemego wrote:

Maybe this person just doesn't understand complex melodies.  Early Genesis music is meant to be listened to intently, not danced to or flailed about to.   Can you whistle it?  Yes.  Will it stay in your head?  Yes.  BUT YOU HAVE TO LISTEN, NOT DANCE, NOT SING, L I S T E N.  
...

You do know that the funny story is that this is the reason why GENESIS ended up getting costumes and other things for their shows, right?

Everyone was falling asleep! And rock audiences do not come to the shows to fall asleep. Rock audiences, like us all here, come to the show to get some version of a minor excitement/orgasm, so we can take care of the girlfriend, or glass of wine later! We might like the show and remember it, but heck ... I didn't see anyone in Seattle come out of King Crimson whistling a tune from them! 

It's MUSIC, not a tune! Can you dance to it? .... YES is the answer, however it would not be a live concert ... it would be something some very advanced dance folks would do, and many of them are doing it and experimenting with all kinds of music ... except that the audience here does not believe that kind of experimentation a valuable anything in the story of the arts, and specially dance. In fact, around here, many love to trash theater, dance and everything else as non-existent and with no value whatsoever ... one of the most aggravating things about the fan-ology of it all! 

Do I go to a KC concert to listen? Yes and No. I go because I know these are some of the best musicians of my time, and I wish to pay a tribute to their ability and artistry ... why? Because "listening" to some simplistic music (watcher of the bullblue!), that has lyrics to TELL YOU WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO SEE, is not the same thing as going to see a major symphony do Mahler's 3rd Symphony in its entirety ... and there you can imagine many things more, and not be told some inane idea and story of what it is supposed to be about.

Please get off the immature idea that the "lyrics" tell you what to think ... in reality, it is sort of like a child's story, and we all know what we think of those when we grow up!


Pedro, even by your standards, this is ridiculous. I have not had the patience to get to the end of the post, but the idea that Genesis commenced the story telling, costumes, and theatrical stuff because audiences fell asleep is pure and utter bollocks. Nonsense. Complete cobblers.

Gabriel, and the band, for that matter, although they tired of it by the end, wanted their concerts to be a fusion of the music and the visual aspect of the music. Art, theatrical, and progressive rock. Pretty simple really. NOT because they wanted to wake the audience up.

I bloody despair sometimes.

Hon! Poor little bird. He said bad things about your favourite band.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2019 at 14:01
Any thread on this site is immediately covered in a thick layer of pseudo intellectual horsesh*t the moment moshpito airs his anti european opinion....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2dogs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2019 at 22:43
^ Oh he makes some interesting points though. It doesn’t hurt to be reminded we all live in our own bubbles and some are very different to the majority on here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2019 at 23:49
Most of Lamb is amazingly melodic. I've got some of it stuck in my head right this moment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2019 at 05:13
Originally posted by 2dogs 2dogs wrote:

^ Oh he makes some interesting points though. It doesn’t hurt to be reminded we all live in our own bubbles and some are very different to the majority on here.

Yeah.  And by no means was the costume thing something the band had always thought about.  It was Gabriel who did it of his own volition, surprising even the band, by first wearing a fox mask on stage and when it was received well, he took the idea forward and it became legend.  A lot of things, particularly great things, in music happen by accident and this is one such.  The polite official version of events is due to bad PA systems in the early days of Genesis, the audience had difficulty understanding Gabriel's lyrics.  So costumes became a part of the event both to entertain them and also to drop clues about what the song was about.  So mosh's summation, while unflattering in tone, is not entirely off the mark.  I don't often agree with him but we should indeed not indiscriminately bash him; he does have a point this time. 

I do respect KC a lot for the very reason he described.  They made it very, very difficult for the audience to find a hook in the music.  Ergo, those who still came to the shows necessarily had to be committed to just listening to the music...without demanding that the singer strut the stage like an alpha male or wear weird outfits.  The audience had to put up with the main man in KC being a bespectacled, scowling countenance crouched over his guitar.  That is the purest form of connection between musician and audience and I say this as somebody who obviously loves the Gabriel Genesis albums whatever mosh may have to say about that. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2019 at 06:15
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Most of Lamb is amazingly melodic. I've got some of it stuck in my head right this moment.
I've got sunshine in my stomach..
 
Indeed, Carpet Crawlers also springs to mind, one of their finest.
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