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Genesis and Melody |
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Frankh ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 14 2017 Location: Schenectady NY Status: Offline Points: 214 |
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Misenum, your friend has tin ear.
Probably a nice person otherwise. |
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Perhaps finding the happy medium is harder than we know.
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65918 |
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^ He doesn't have a tin ear, he has a common one and a common taste in music. Nothing wrong with that. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18988 |
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You do know that the funny story is that this is the reason why GENESIS ended up getting costumes and other things for their shows, right? Everyone was falling asleep! And rock audiences do not come to the shows to fall asleep. Rock audiences, like us all here, come to the show to get some version of a minor excitement/orgasm, so we can take care of the girlfriend, or glass of wine later! We might like the show and remember it, but heck ... I didn't see anyone in Seattle come out of King Crimson whistling a tune from them! It's MUSIC, not a tune! Can you dance to it? .... YES is the answer, however it would not be a live concert ... it would be something some very advanced dance folks would do, and many of them are doing it and experimenting with all kinds of music ... except that the audience here does not believe that kind of experimentation a valuable anything in the story of the arts, and specially dance. In fact, around here, many love to trash theater, dance and everything else as non-existent and with no value whatsoever ... one of the most aggravating things about the fan-ology of it all! Do I go to a KC concert to listen? Yes and No. I go because I know these are some of the best musicians of my time, and I wish to pay a tribute to their ability and artistry ... why? Because "listening" to some simplistic music (watcher of the bullblue!), that has lyrics to TELL YOU WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO SEE, is not the same thing as going to see a major symphony do Mahler's 3rd Symphony in its entirety ... and there you can imagine many things more, and not be told some inane idea and story of what it is supposed to be about. Please get off the immature idea that the "lyrics" tell you what to think ... in reality, it is sort of like a child's story, and we all know what we think of those when we grow up!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Lydianlover ![]() Forum Groupie ![]() Joined: February 07 2019 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 60 |
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So you talk about a heightened sense of musical ability, but you dare to mock me for enjoying advanced music myself. Then attempt to "insult" my post with cheesy lyrics, mistaken it for the "Lydian" mode when it is in fact not?
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65918 |
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^ Well after all the Lydian-loving threads you have to have a sense of humor about it. Not mocking your tastes, just having a bit of fun. If you post you may get responses, so deal with it. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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lazland ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: October 28 2008 Location: Wales Status: Online Points: 13903 |
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Pedro, even by your standards, this is ridiculous. I have not had the patience to get to the end of the post, but the idea that Genesis commenced the story telling, costumes, and theatrical stuff because audiences fell asleep is pure and utter bollocks. Nonsense. Complete cobblers. Gabriel, and the band, for that matter, although they tired of it by the end, wanted their concerts to be a fusion of the music and the visual aspect of the music. Art, theatrical, and progressive rock. Pretty simple really. NOT because they wanted to wake the audience up. I bloody despair sometimes. |
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
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dr wu23 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20712 |
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Well....I never got into Gabriel era Genesis in the first place for the 'melodies'....never thought that many prog rock bands were about 'melodies' to begin with or at least it wasn't something I even thought about.
Crimson is probably my favorite prog band and they even have less 'melodic' tunes than early Genesis. If I want to hum along with a song...I'll put on the Beatles. ;)
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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HackettFan ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7951 |
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Everyone here has a strange notion of melody. Melody is comprised of single notes, but it always has a harmonic relationship to a given chord progression. Even if a chord progression is not actually being played, a melody will suggest a chord progression. Melodies are note sequences driven by arpeggios. Blues leads are not melodic because the same five notes are good irrespective of the progression behind it. If it's in the same key, then it's good. To put it another way, a Blues lead does not normally suggest specific a chord progression.
Genesis did not do a lot of blues. They constructed melodies quite frequently from chords, chords that were extraordinarily innovative. |
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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65918 |
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Certainly has been the most musically stimulating discussion around here in months ~ Misenum hasn't visited since the 27th, wonder what he thinks . Edited by Atavachron - May 01 2019 at 01:51 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Saperlipopette! ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: December 20 2010 Location: Tomorrowland Status: Offline Points: 13357 |
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I think "everyone" would have had a differnt notion of melody if it wasn't for:
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Frankh ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: September 14 2017 Location: Schenectady NY Status: Offline Points: 214 |
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He could. We don't know. But I didn't say anything was wrong with it, either. Hell, there are honest to God musicians with tin ears. |
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Perhaps finding the happy medium is harder than we know.
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Blacksword ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
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![]() Indeed. Although, one of the stated reasons for the pre-song stories was to talk over the tuning up between songs. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18988 |
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There were stories that GENESIS simply was not cutting it, and after their tour with OSANNA, who was doing a lot of costumes and some theatrical stuff, they started doing costumes and creating stories. Before that, as is the case in "From Genesis to Revelation", the band was just a bunch of songs. The main idea, that some theatrical concepts and thoughts would help the show, is not new, and has been around for millennia, so GENESIS (the band, of course!!!!!) inventing it, is a joke! And many of those ideas and thoughts have always been around Europe, in its history of the Dramatic Arts. I just find it annoying, and silly, when people think that the band invented that stuff, and were the audience or not falling asleep, is not my wording ... it actually came from MELODY MAKER, who did not like GENESIS before and found them pretentious, until all of a sudden they had some costumes and ... wow ... a new band ... the world has been created by the English again!
The idea for adding visuals to a stage show, in GENESIS' case, was a way to augment their presentation, but the last thing they wanted to do was another PF behemoth ... when some major money was being centered on the staging, instead of the music and its value. GENESIS, was a band that was pretty much a family and they would not be able to afford such extravagant expenses on staging ... but, the weird and funny thing ... they could have had film very cheaply, since video was already being used, and while not as good as the regular film at the time, it was considerably better than it was before. IF, there was a problem, I think that the timing to create a film "story" or "visual" was prohibitive ... something that Steven Wilson, kinda does automatically with some of his work, even if some of it is rather generic and not quite about the song itself. AND, then to figure out how to make it shown on screen, would have been something of GREAT VALUE for SEBTP and TLLDOB, both great albums, but very diverse and wide in their possible story telling. TLLDOB is perfect for a film. TOTALLY. But it would require a complete change of the presentation, and it probably would not look like a rock show that fans can come over to applaud the guitar solo and the girls can woodle and coodle the lead singer! That would have been a problem in 1975, as it is now ... the audiences "demand" this and that, and you will be damned if you do something else. Few bands could over come this, unless their reach was already so huge in both Europe and America ... that they could ignore it and create their own show, and not worry about anything else. Pink Floyd should get some credit for that ... in LA the DSOTM shows got a good review, but also there were many comments that the film and a lot of the visuals were too much, specially the lights aimed at your eyes! The only audiences that are a problem, are the majority of rock audiences. ANY band, TODAY, trying to do something theatrical, is going to get smashed ... because many folks in this group here, are going to trash it, and not appreciate the attempt to put something together. There are exceptions, like Kate Bush, but even in her show she limited it to some of the songs, and mostly dress changes ... but generally, her stuff is almost purely VISUAL and for me, (not the same as the PA folks!) more of it would not be enough! But while some folks in London loved it for 20 shows, in America, LA, TN or NY ... it would get laughed at and not appreciated, unless someone could revive Bob Fosse to do all the dancing stuff a lot sexier and nuttier! THERE HAS BEEN, for many years, a huge battle between a show and its presentation. YES tried it, with just lights ... and it worked for a few years. GENESIS had to use some costumes, but after a while they were interfering with the music and the continuation of the shows ... but this also stipulates that the design and concept was not thought out well, and the scene changes conflicted with the performance. FIX IT. But, in the early 70's the whole lighting thing, was losing its edge ... completely ... the media made sure that the shows at the Fillmore were dead and no one would ever see them again ... and it ended up giving way to what PF did and only a handful of bands even tried ... most just gave up on lights, and even today, 99 out of a 100 shows, that lighting is ridiculous ... that guy is on the flute and the light is on the guitar ... the lighting person doesn't even know the music. It was no different then, when I was in theater doing technical stuff and lights specially. And I wanted to do a few bands, but they were afraid of too many lights and a "show" ... only to end up seeing Pink Floyd hammer their heads for their stupidity! GENESIS gave up on their "show" and "visual" presentation, for whatever reason. I think PG wanted more, but what he did at first (I saw the first tour ... with Random Hold, I think!), was nothing ... just a dark outfit with a flashing light over his heart! WOW ... biggie, man ... biggie .... I never bothered with PG again, though I have the albums until Sledgehammer only.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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chopper ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 20071 |
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As far as I am aware, the dressing up came about so that Gabriel had something to do during the long instrumental passages. It's true they weren't the most visually stimulating band before that (Hackett and Rutherford sat down most of the time) but I doubt audiences were falling asleep.
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Barbu ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: October 09 2005 Location: infinity Status: Offline Points: 30855 |
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Hon! Poor little bird. He said bad things about your favourite band. Why don't you go cry to mother, lassie? You'll feel much better. ![]() |
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M27Barney ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 09 2006 Location: Swinton M27 Status: Offline Points: 3136 |
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Any thread on this site is immediately covered in a thick layer of pseudo intellectual horsesh*t the moment moshpito airs his anti european opinion....
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2dogs ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: December 03 2011 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 705 |
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^ Oh he makes some interesting points though. It doesn’t hurt to be reminded we all live in our own bubbles and some are very different to the majority on here.
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"There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette
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richardh ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 30552 |
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Most of Lamb is amazingly melodic. I've got some of it stuck in my head right this moment. I've got sunshine in my stomach..
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rogerthat ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Yeah. And by no means was the costume thing something the band had always thought about. It was Gabriel who did it of his own volition, surprising even the band, by first wearing a fox mask on stage and when it was received well, he took the idea forward and it became legend. A lot of things, particularly great things, in music happen by accident and this is one such. The polite official version of events is due to bad PA systems in the early days of Genesis, the audience had difficulty understanding Gabriel's lyrics. So costumes became a part of the event both to entertain them and also to drop clues about what the song was about. So mosh's summation, while unflattering in tone, is not entirely off the mark. I don't often agree with him but we should indeed not indiscriminately bash him; he does have a point this time. I do respect KC a lot for the very reason he described. They made it very, very difficult for the audience to find a hook in the music. Ergo, those who still came to the shows necessarily had to be committed to just listening to the music...without demanding that the singer strut the stage like an alpha male or wear weird outfits. The audience had to put up with the main man in KC being a bespectacled, scowling countenance crouched over his guitar. That is the purest form of connection between musician and audience and I say this as somebody who obviously loves the Gabriel Genesis albums whatever mosh may have to say about that.
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chopper ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 20071 |
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Indeed, Carpet Crawlers also springs to mind, one of their finest.
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