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ELP Underrated?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve Wyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2024 at 13:32
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Greg Lake playing lead guitar in ELP:
Lucky Man
Battlefield (Tarkus)
From The Beginning
Still You Turn Me On
Karn Evil 9 1st Impression

Lake actually started as a lead guitarist but Robert Fripp asked him to play bass as lead was taken!

Don't forget that tasty acoustic solo in the long center-section of "Take a Pebble"!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2024 at 23:45
^ originally the mid section had it's own song 'A dog named blue' off the top of my head which was a clap along audience thing. You can find it on some early ELP live stuff.
For me The Sage is the best thing he ever did with an acoustic guitar although I do like his Xmas hit a lot. The latter came about because he had a little acoustic guitar piece that he didn't know what to with and then discovered he could sing 'Jingle Bells' along with it!


Edited by richardh - May 01 2024 at 21:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Phil Rollins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2024 at 03:53
No, not really. I mean, it's all been done before.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2024 at 05:02
While I would still say that its underrated by some and overrated by others, having seen claims that it's underrated many times gives me the impression that it's terribly overrated (at least by those who would insist that it's terribly underrated).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Big Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2024 at 11:20
I think it's more that ELP is underappreciated in these current times. They were one of the pioneers of what became Progressive Rock. They were innovative and embraced music technology. Massively talented, in particular, Keith Emerson and Carl Palmer were mainstays in musician polls for best keyboardist and drummer. Emerson's influence is massive and is recognized by many as Rock music's greatest keyboardist.

Their first 4 studio albums and 2 live albums have stood the test of time. If they would have called it a day after their triple live album Welcome Back My Friends to the Show That Never Ends, they would be remembered more fondly. They would have made their statement, while going out on top.

Edited by Big Sky - May 02 2024 at 21:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2024 at 14:40
^ I'm sure many do underappreciate ELP, but I have known various individuals at PA who recognise the contributions and significance to rock generally and to Prog specifically, as well as the talent on display, but just don't enjoy qualities of the music much or how that talent is used.  The debut is most liked by me.  I think it's the lack of subtlety in part from ELP in certain music, the show-off-ness, that puts many off.  There is a  bandwagon effect that more now might well focus on certain qualities that are seen as negative now due to common criticisms.  And it's not as known now as it is not now trendy.  That said, while one might argue that it is underappreciated by the majority into progressive music now, one might also say that it was over-appreciated at the time by the masses.   An issue I have had with various posters at PA has been that they feel that ELP is entitled to be in the top 100 albums chart and that it is wrong and an injustice for ELP not to get better representation in the chart.  That ELP deserves to higher rated in the chart. The chart is a popularity list based on an amalgamation of the ratings of what individuals have rated and how they rated those albums.  I do not believe that people are underrating it who opt not to rate the albums or rate them highly.  That one would like to see the band more popular again, fine, but it is the sense of entitlement of some ELP fans, the ignorance of how the charts operate and what they represent, and scorn for those who think less of ELP that has been an issue from my perspective.  My perspective mostly comes from PA forum interactions and is less "global" than many.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2024 at 18:31
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

While I would still say that its underrated by some and overrated by others, having seen claims that it's underrated many times gives me the impression that it's terribly overrated (at least by those who would insist that it's terribly underrated).
I like ELP far more than the word "underrated". Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2024 at 19:00
^ And I prefer the term underrated to proctalgia fugax.  To each his or her own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2024 at 22:25
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


^ I'm sure many do underappreciate ELP, but I have known various
individuals at PA who recognise the contributions and significance to
rock generally and to Prog specifically, as well as the talent on
display, but just don't enjoy qualities of the music much or how that
talent is used.  The debut is most liked by me.  I think it's the lack
of subtlety in part from ELP in certain music, the show-off-ness, that
puts many off.  There is a  bandwagon effect that more now might well
focus on certain qualities that are seen as negative now due to common
criticisms.  And it's not as known now as it is not now trendy.  That
said, while one might argue that it is underappreciated by the majority
into progressive music now, one might also say that it was
over-appreciated at the time by the masses.   An issue I have had with
various posters at PA has been that they feel that ELP is entitled to be
in the top 100 albums chart and that it is wrong and an injustice for
ELP not to get better representation in the chart.  That ELP
deserves to higher rated in the chart. The chart is a popularity
list based on an amalgamation of the ratings of what individuals have
rated and how they rated those albums.  I do not believe that people are
underrating it who opt not to rate the albums or rate them highly. 
That one would like to see the band more popular again, fine, but it is
the sense of entitlement of some ELP fans, the ignorance of how the
charts operate and what they represent, and scorn for those who think
less of ELP that has been an issue from my perspective.  My perspective
mostly comes from PA forum interactions and is less "global" than many.


Logan,

I understand what you are saying. That one can appreciate the importance of ELP to Prog Rock, indeed they are on the short list of most important bands to the genre of Prog, but not necessarily be a fan of their music.

I guess Eddie Van Halen would be that for me in the guitar world. I recognize his importance to guitar generally and rock guitar specifically. He is one of the two most important rock guitarists ever. You can argue over if you want to place Hendrix or Eddie in the top spot. However, I can list probably over a hundred guitarists I rather listen to before picking Van Halen. If it's specifically Rock guitarist, then there are certainly at least 50 I would pick.

His style was never one that I wanted to absorb in my playing as a guitarist. Howe, Morse, Lifeson, Fripp, McLaughlin were the guys that I was more interested in as a guitarist.

I will say as far as ELP is concerned, I would have 3 albums in my top 100 as far as PA is concerned. BSS and maybe Trilogy would be in my top 50.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2024 at 02:34
Looking at how many bands have been deeply influenced by ELP, I think they wasn't weren't underrated by their colleagues.


Edited by octopus-4 - May 03 2024 at 02:46
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2024 at 07:45
Originally posted by Big Sky Big Sky wrote:

I think it's more that ELP is underappreciated in these current times. They were one of the pioneers of what became Progressive Rock. They were innovative and embraced music technology.
...

Hi,

I agree with the lack of appreciation, specially for the lack of comprehension i regards to how you heard a lot of the music in the late 60's and early 70's, just before the FM radio band took over in America (1971/1972 for sure) ... and we heard the music, and it sounded glorious ... and there was no one that I can remember that did not appreciate it, or thought it was stupid. 

I don't know about the "pioneer" business, since ELP was not the only band to get a lot of spins on the new radio "sound", something I don't know folks today can relate to, which helped make a lot of bands huge, and with an incredible following that resulted in massive sales.

Innovation ... I tend to look at differently ... innovation has always been there in many ways, styles and appearances, but for the time, AND PLACE, it's appearance was like the opening of 2001 for so many folks ... it was a huge wow ... but today, it's mostly all a cheap (and loud) light show and so many bands simply mailing their material! I don't think there will be another big "WOW" in music for many years to come, specially as we are not looking at new stuff, and keep regurgitating the old stuff.

I wish that many more of us would listen to these favorites in the MONO version of things that was first heard in those days ... for many of us, the first thing you are going to do is ... yep ... throw up! And it makes you realize how important the advent of STEREO in the FM radio became, which helped Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and so many other bands that were very strong and different than most pop music on the cheap radio dial. Gosh, you should have heard the Moodies in the AM radio ... Nights in White Nothing ... is just ... so sad ... and if you use earphones, wow ... that's a mess!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2024 at 10:17
Originally posted by Big Sky Big Sky wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


^ I'm sure many do underappreciate ELP, but I have known various individuals at PA who recognise the contributions and significance to rock generally and to Prog specifically, as well as the talent on display, but just don't enjoy qualities of the music much or how that talent is used.  The debut is most liked by me.  I think it's the lack of subtlety in part from ELP in certain music, the show-off-ness, that puts many off.  There is a  bandwagon effect that more now might well focus on certain qualities that are seen as negative now due to common criticisms.  And it's not as known now as it is not now trendy.  That said, while one might argue that it is underappreciated by the majority into progressive music now, one might also say that it was
over-appreciated at the time by the masses.   

An issue I have had with various posters at PA has been that they feel that ELP is entitled to be in the top 100 albums chart and that it is wrong and an injustice for ELP to not get better representation in the chart.  That ELP deserves to be higher rated in the chart. The chart is a popularity list based on an amalgamation of the ratings of what individuals have rated and how they rated those albums.  I do not believe that people are underrating it who opt not to rate the albums or rate them highly.  That one would like to see the band more popular again, fine, but it is the sense of entitlement of some ELP fans, the ignorance of how the charts operate and what they represent, and scorn for those who think less of ELP that has been an issue from my perspective.  My perspective mostly comes from PA forum interactions and is less "global" than many.


Logan,

I understand what you are saying. That one can appreciate the importance of ELP to Prog Rock, indeed they are on the short list of most important bands to the genre of Prog, but not necessarily be a fan of their music.

I guess Eddie Van Halen would be that for me in the guitar world. I recognize his importance to guitar generally and rock guitar specifically. He is one of the two most important rock guitarists ever. You can argue over if you want to place Hendrix or Eddie in the top spot. However, I can list probably over a hundred guitarists I rather listen to before picking Van Halen. If it's specifically Rock guitarist, then there are certainly at least 50 I would pick.

His style was never one that I wanted to absorb in my playing as a guitarist. Howe, Morse, Lifeson, Fripp, McLaughlin were the guys that I was more interested in as a guitarist.

I will say as far as ELP is concerned, I would have 3 albums in my top 100 as far as PA is concerned. BSS and maybe Trilogy would be in my top 50.


Jeff, I get where you are coming from in both posts and do appreciate your perspective.  If I were to make list of most significant and quintessential Prog bands, ELP would be very high in the list.  And if I were to do a top 100 most significant albums to Prog, ELP would again rank high. I'd be tempted to put Trilogy because that is one I have really liked and from my upbringing it's one of those I remember being in people's collections while a young child.  When I seriously got into Prog in the 2000s, Trilogy is one of the first albums to which I returned.  I have wondered if some others attitudes have tainted my appreciation for various ELP music or how much of it is just that my tastes shifted.  When I joined PA, Gentle Giant and PFM were my favourite bands and now neither gets much attention from me... Moved onto other things.  As noted, ELP has been a significant influence on many bands/musicians and I have been acquainted with people who loved bands/musicians/albums/tracks inspired by ELP while being quite scornful of ELP

As for my own personal top 100 albums included in PA (and if doing so I would do one album per act), ELP would not make it, but then my tastes commonly do not run towards the more typical Prog suspects or Prog styles. A lot of what I like best in PA might not be considered Prog genre even if progressive music. As one person one put it bluntly at PA, I have terrible taste in music (not that I agree). Big smile

--------------------------------------------------------

As to the issue of the much reviled overrated and underrated terms, a problem I see is that is they get "overused" and often it is just coming down to an "others don't appreciate certain music as much as I", or "others like music I don't appreciate much far too much" and "I know better".  It can be a very arrogant, self-centred, and myopic assessment.  That is subjective, but there are ways to consider the merits of art/bands/musicians in a more objective, evidentiary, knowledgeable and reasonable manner.  Sometimes people overrate or underrate something (i.e, assess too highly or lowly) due to ignorance, erroneous assumptions, falsehoods, misinterpretation....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr prog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2024 at 17:49
First album pretty good. They tended to get weaker after that. Didn’t like brain salad lol

Edited by dr prog - May 03 2024 at 17:50
All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheLionOfPrague Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2024 at 19:58
I agree their 1970-1974 period seems underrated in the TOP 100, at least compared to the other "Big 6" bands. Even other bands like Gentle Giant, VDGG, or even more unknown bands for the general public like PFM seem to have higher rated albums. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2024 at 02:56
Oh this bloody top 100 thing again.

ELP albums are rated correctly with maybe the exception being BSS.
The first 4 studio albums are all around 4 (excellent addition to a prog collection). The triple album also has a similar rating. The rating system though on PA is very unsophiscated with no half marks allowed. Quite likely BSS would achieve a slightly higher rating if you didn't have to deduct a whole point for the risable BTB (that has always harmed it's standing here I believe). That's my main complaint but it's not a big one because ELP decided to include it and that's a mistake they have to own (when they toured the album it was the only track they didn't play so go figure). I believe a lot of stuff on PA only gets higher rated because the quality is more even and consistent , for instance Supertramps Crime Of The Century is a very enjoyable album but hardly ground breaking or innovative (ELP were those things IMO). 'Tramp were mainly good at soaking up influences and making things nice and tidy and the likes of Camel and a few others were also more in that mould as well. ELP were untidy and rather happier out in the world performing where they had less arguments and potential falling outs!

Considering the number of albums released every year I would like to see more modern albums rated higher and it actually annoys me a tad that so much of the top 100 is the last century. But you have the filters and can pick years (grouped if you want) and so that's cool. I think it's much better to consider PA as a resource to try and gets to grip with the much varied many headed beast that is 'prog rock' rather than some form of bible.

BTW over the years I've concluded that Gentle Giant fans are just as bad as ELP fans when it comes to being self entitled . Fact is ELP sold a shedload of albums and could stand on a stage and not look at out place next to the giants of rock music (Sabbath, LZ , Purple etc) . They could perform the sh*t out of it, sell out massive staduims and actually had personality. Beyond this they had one of the greatest musicians of the 20th century in Keith Emerson who had the talent to create Tarkus and Karn Evil 9. I only care about talent at the end of the day. ELP were all about talent and not about consistency or making good decisions. I'll take the former any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stigfzm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2024 at 03:37
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Oh this bloody top 100 thing again.

ELP albums are rated correctly with maybe the exception being BSS.
The first 4 studio albums are all around 4 (excellent addition to a prog collection). The triple album also has a similar rating. The rating system though on PA is very unsophiscated with no half marks allowed. Quite likely BSS would achieve a slightly higher rating if you didn't have to deduct a whole point for the risable BTB (that has always harmed it's standing here I believe). That's my main complaint but it's not a big one because ELP decided to include it and that's a mistake they have to own (when they toured the album it was the only track they didn't play so go figure). I believe a lot of stuff on PA only gets higher rated because the quality is more even and consistent , for instance Supertramps Crime Of The Century is a very enjoyable album but hardly ground breaking or innovative (ELP were those things IMO). 'Tramp were mainly good at soaking up influences and making things nice and tidy and the likes of Camel and a few others were also more in that mould as well. ELP were untidy and rather happier out in the world performing where they had less arguments and potential falling outs!

Considering the number of albums released every year I would like to see more modern albums rated higher and it actually annoys me a tad that so much of the top 100 is the last century. But you have the filters and can pick years (grouped if you want) and so that's cool. I think it's much better to consider PA as a resource to try and gets to grip with the much varied many headed beast that is 'prog rock' rather than some form of bible.

BTW over the years I've concluded that Gentle Giant fans are just as bad as ELP fans when it comes to being self entitled . Fact is ELP sold a shedload of albums and could stand on a stage and not look at out place next to the giants of rock music (Sabbath, LZ , Purple etc) . They could perform the sh*t out of it, sell out massive staduims and actually had personality. Beyond this they had one of the greatest musicians of the 20th century in Keith Emerson who had the talent to create Tarkus and Karn Evil 9. I only care about talent at the end of the day. ELP were all about talent and not about consistency or making good decisions. I'll take the former any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

That's a fair comment. I'm also confused by ELP's inconsistency within their albums. Tarkus and Brain Salad Surgery both contain the apex of Keith Emerson IMO, but strangely also have stupid ballads or pop songs. That just explains why ELP's debut album is concluded in the top 100. Thanks mate
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2024 at 06:58
Originally posted by Big Sky Big Sky wrote:

I think it's more that ELP is underappreciated in these current times. They were one of the pioneers of what became Progressive Rock. They were innovative and embraced music technology.
...

Hi,

55 years later, and a spoiled listening audience that had no idea how valuable and huge (and important) some things were in the late 60's ... I think it is impossible to take the current folks comments properly, specially when they come from the side of "preference" instead of a simple explanation of their reasoning why ... perhaps they have no explanation beyond "preference", and in these days of Internet, they have the right to say so ... but it's hard to not notice the lack of history and the appreciation for the time and place, when these things took place.

It's like all the SF, NY, London, Paris, Tokyo stuff in the 60's was an illusion ... just another Russ Meyer film, with a bad poster to tease your memory!

I don't think of anything as "over rated" or "under rated" ... it is what it was and that's that ... and my liking it or not has nothing to do with it ... regardless of "when". But some of the comments are really sad. Embarrassed


Edited by moshkito - May 07 2024 at 15:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2024 at 07:55
Their post-Welcome Back My Friends... stuff did a lot of harm to their reputation, even if Works Vol 1 was a good and innovative album. 

Plus they were the ones who got the most ruthless criticisms in the 2nd half of the 70s for self-indulgent, pretentious and overblown, after the ruinous and failed orchestral tour. In hindsight it's hard to imagine how neither their management nor their accountants nor themselves could make such a huge mistake when judging the foreseeable profit & loss statements of that tour, but the fact is that they made it, of 100+ foreseen shows only 15 could be finally made with the orchestra, and they were still lucky that most fans who had bought their tickets to see a show of ELP with orchestra did not complain and ask for their money back when they finally had to see them as just a trio.

And for whatever other reasons they do not seem to have the appreciation by the younger generations of proggers, perhaps in part by their ecclecticism, inconsistent output, and the very limited presence of electric guitar.

But in 1972 they were the top progressive rock band, in the Melody Maker Readers' Poll awards of that year they were elected as best rock band in the world, Keith as best rock keyboard player, Carl as best rock drummer, Greg as best producer and Keith & Greg shared the award as best composers. They were on fire and the awards were celebrated with a concert in which they brought 2 giant Tarkus puppets which threw smoke from the mouth and shooted foam from the cannons.






They purchased a theater in Fulham London as a rehearsal place and also they established Manticore Studios there, where also bands like PFM recorded some albums. Bands like Led Zepp and Jethro Tull went there to rehearse their shows.

Keith was collaborating with Bob Moog in the development of the first polyphonic synth which would eventually become the Polymoog, Carl together with the British Steel Company built his famous custom stainless steel drum kit, and Greg ordered the luthier Tony Zemaitis his custom double neck which would eventually be too heavy and he only used it in the Welcome Back... tour.

In summary, at that time they were the biggest prog band out there. I love them even with their inconsistencies.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 09 2024 at 22:15
^ apparently Keith ended his association with Bob Moog when a synthesiser they had both been working on together was shipped to Patrick Moraz. (Ken Golden told this anecdote on a y/t show where the Sea Of Tranquillity dudes were discussing a four album battle between CTTE, Red, Lamb and BSS, no prizes for guessing what came last).
Personally I found Works a bit dull at the time. I liked the cheesy side of ELP and they had suddenly got very serious with the Piano Concerto et al. All these years later I like the album a lot (never going to love it I think) but the stain that stayed with them and can never be washed away is Love Beach. The genius band that helped changed the face of music had become invisible. Part of the issue that Emerson and Lake had stopped writing music together and that was when the creativity died. They could surely have put the bad publicity of Works behind them but the horrible decision that was Love Beach will always remain part of their legacy and that's a shame.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 10 2024 at 01:13
^Yes Keith was collaborating with Bob Moog in developing the first polyphonic synth (there were a couple of duophonic models but by "polyphonic" here we mean with 3 voices or more). 
During the prototype stages it was called the Apollo and the final production version came out in 1975 called Polymoog.
From 1973 Bob Moog lent the prototype to Keith, who debuted it in the BSS album and he used it in that tour (together with the other prototype Lyra which Keith described as "a Minimoog on steroids" (monophonic) and which never made it to production).

Indeed Bob Moog lent another unit of the Apollo prototype to Patrick Moraz and apparently Keith didn't like this at all.

But the development of this synth was not led by Bob Moog but by a guy called David Luce, who chose for the technology called "divide down" used by the string machines, and this technology while making polyphony much easier, could not produce the full-bodied sounds of a normal monophonic synth, and as a result the timbres produced by the Apollo / Polymoog were rather weak and the programming options were limited.

In parallel Yamaha was also working on a polyphonic synth which came out nearly at the same time in 1975, the huge and super-expensive GX-1, which produced much better sounds at the cost of less polyphony (8 voices while the Apollo / Polymoog were fully polyphonic with 71 voices for their 71 keys). 

Additionally Bob Moog was getting tired and fed up with certain aspects of his company management and was considering selling it (which he did in 1977 to Norlin).

All factors together resulted in Keith ending his long collaboration with Moog and switching to Yamaha from the Works Vol 1 album (and later also Korg). However Keith kept using his iconic modular Moog in the concerts.

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