| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Slartibartfast 
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
|
 Posted: January 14 2009 at 09:49 |
|
I tend to side with the underdog in these kind of situations and that
is the Palestinians in Gaza. Lots of stones being cast and no side is without
sin, except for the innocents on each side who get slaughtered.
I'll go make that tea...
Edited by Slartibartfast - January 14 2009 at 09:52
|
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
|
 |
Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 10:17 |
The Arabs and the Jews, boy..too much for me..
|
|
WinterLight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 09 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 424
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 10:29 |
|
It's a mistake to regard these acts as resulting predominantly from cultural tensions, i.e. hostile relations between some Jews and some Muslims; rather these antagonisms are cynically exploited by those in power, which effectively means Washington, although Western Europe and Israel itself have certain interests as well. An illuminating work on these matters is Perilous Power by Noam Chomsky and Gilbert Achcar.
|
|
stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 10:39 |
 WinterLight wrote:
The key point, however, and it's one that I don't believe has been stated explicitly here, is that the Israeli government is basically on Washington's leash
|
It's also reciprocal. http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gD-QcI_C-CrcqfSZBh6A5_e514ZwI certainly hope Obama and his administration has more of a spine than Bush and his.
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 10:39 |
^Winterlight, you mention Chomsky... do you held his opinions in high regard? A man that practically denied the Cambodian holocaust just because it was done by a left-wing (well, LEFT-wing) government?
I hope this thread doesn't get deleted. It's a good read. You won't change anything no matter how hard you fight and accuse each other of not being the ultimate open-minded person in PA, but it makes for a good change of material after the extremely (this week at least) boring prog-lounge....
I would also love to read an opinion in how to have to deal with garbage like Hamas.... I've been hearing bullsh*t like that all my life, in Ecuador, where there's a neighboring criminal guerrilla (FARC - you westerners don't have time for Southamerica of course)... When they kill innocents and kidnap innocents, it's just "bad". When one of their leaders is killed, it's a "crime".
Innocents have to fall in all battles, haven't they? If the Palestinians are so fond of creating chaos and making life for Israelis an inferno, well... better expect some less-than-pink consequences...
|
|
|
|
BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 10:41 |
WinterLight wrote:
It's a mistake to regard these acts as resulting predominantly from cultural tensions, i.e. hostile relations between some Jews and some Muslims; rather these antagonisms are cynically exploited by those in power, which effectively means Washington, although Western Europe and Israel itself have certain interests as well. An illuminating work on these matters is Perilous Power by Noam Chomsky and Gilbert Achcar.
|
it is more complicated than that even. governments in Arab states stoke the conflict too, the reason being that with a foe from outside the opposition inside is being calmed down
|
 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
|
|
WinterLight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 09 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 424
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 10:59 |
The T wrote:
^Winterlight, you mention Chomsky... do you held his opinions in high regard? A man that practically denied the Cambodian holocaust just because it was done by a left-wing (well, LEFT-wing) government?
Chomsky is one of those writers about whom everyone seems to have an opinion; unfortunately, they usually don't bother to read his work. Now I've read quite a bit of his writing and I've never came across any denial of the Cambodian holocaust. If you could provide citations (of his work, not someone else "summarizing" his work), then I'll approach it with an open mind; otherwise, not so much.
I would also love to read an opinion in how to have to deal with garbage like Hamas...
This is part of the problem: no matter how detestable someone's actions may be (and an organization like Hamas surely has its share) it is a grave mistake to regard them as less than human, for in doing so we become the less than human.
Innocents have to fall in all battles, haven't they?
No, especially in view of the precision afforded by modern weaponry. So much is mandated by the Geneva Conventions.
If the Palestinians are so fond of creating chaos and making life for Israelis an inferno, well... better expect some less-than-pink consequences...
Actually, most Palestinians and Israelis would prefer to live in peace (in fact, read Haaretz or The Jerusalem Post for some frank Israeli criticism of their government's actions). That some politically motivated groups exploit circumstances to the advantage of certain power structures is transparent. I suggest that you research on how frequently the Israeli military violates basic international laws and standards.
|
|
|
TGM: Orb
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 21 2007
Location: n/a
Status: Offline
Points: 8052
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:01 |
birdwithteeth11 wrote:
Where do you think I'm being racist? I'm not trying to be and would be more than happy to clarify what I mean. Also, the reason I'm being one-sided is because last I checked, Muslim groups like Hamas have been the cause of much more violence and damage than any Jews or Jewish group that I can think of. Why the hell do people always blame Jews and/or Israel for causing problems when they just want to live in peace?!
|
It's not so much that Israel want to live in peace that's the problem. It's that they want to live in peace on a bit of land that they really never had any right to, and, to do that, they essentially kicked out the locals to do so. Their own bloody fault, in that respect. Anyway, as I can see it, the views you can take on it basically fall down to A) whether or not Israel is using disproportionate force and B) whether or not Israel has any right to be there nowPersonally, I think Israel is now established. It shouldn't have been, but it is, and that makes the actions of Hamas unacceptable. I have to admit I'm a bit sceptical about the civilian death figures the media keep throwing in front of us, particularly as, I suspect, there's frequently no way of telling whether someone was a civilian, a member of Hamas. Even when you can decide, there's often little way of telling whether or not Hamas members were the primary target or the civilians were hit independently.
|
|
WinterLight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 09 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 424
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:03 |
BaldJean wrote:
WinterLight wrote:
It's a mistake to regard these acts as resulting predominantly from cultural tensions, i.e. hostile relations between some Jews and some Muslims; rather these antagonisms are cynically exploited by those in power, which effectively means Washington, although Western Europe and Israel itself have certain interests as well. An illuminating work on these matters is Perilous Power by Noam Chomsky and Gilbert Achcar.
|
it is more complicated than that even. governments in Arab states stoke the conflict too, the reason being that with a foe from outside the opposition inside is being calmed down
|
Yes, of course, any power structure that can exploit the situation probably will exploit it, and that includes so-called Arab states. That it's "complicated" is plainly false: for neither you nor I have mentioned anything beyond the transparent.
|
|
WinterLight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 09 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 424
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:10 |
There's nothing "reciprocal" about the relationship between the world's strongest military power and its client state. Israel votes according to Washington's orders; sometimes, yes, it does stray somewhat from the American plan, but than Washington cuts funding, etc. In any case, there's no reason for optimism regarding Obama and US policy for the Middle East: he's likely to sustain the policy that has been effective since the the late 1960s.
|
|
BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:10 |
WinterLight wrote:
BaldJean wrote:
WinterLight wrote:
It's a mistake to regard these acts as resulting predominantly from cultural tensions, i.e. hostile relations between some Jews and some Muslims; rather these antagonisms are cynically exploited by those in power, which effectively means Washington, although Western Europe and Israel itself have certain interests as well. An illuminating work on these matters is Perilous Power by Noam Chomsky and Gilbert Achcar.
|
it is more complicated than that even. governments in Arab states stoke the conflict too, the reason being that with a foe from outside the opposition inside is being calmed down
|
Yes, of course, any power structure that can exploit the situation probably will exploit it, and that includes so-called Arab states. That it's "complicated" is plainly false: for neither you nor I have mentioned anything beyond the transparent.
|
lol, I did not say it was complicated per se, I merely mentioned it was more complicated than so-far stated
|
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:12 |
WinterLight wrote:
The T wrote:
^Winterlight, you mention Chomsky... do you held his opinions in high regard? A man that practically denied the Cambodian holocaust just because it was done by a left-wing (well, LEFT-wing) government?
Chomsky is one of those writers about whom everyone seems to have an opinion; unfortunately, they usually don't bother to read his work. Now I've read quite a bit of his writing and I've never came across any denial of the Cambodian holocaust. If you could provide citations (of his work, not someone else "summarizing" his work), then I'll approach it with an open mind; otherwise, not so much.
Here you have me. I haven't read a whole work since a read several (by different authors) comments and analysis of his work in which it's clear he makes the cambodian holocaust seem so little that he practically denies there ever was one. You're right that I lack better evidence. But I know left-wingers WL (I AM also kind of left-wing... here in the US though... for in my countries being left-wing is pretty much being a defender of suicidal-crazy Che Guevara) and I know how ready they are to recognize atrocities made by opposing governments but how cautious they are to do the same with "misdeeds" and "errors" (as they call them) by dictatorships like Castro's or any other communist one.
I would also love to read an opinion in how to have to deal with garbage like Hamas...
This is part of the problem: no matter how detestable someone's actions may be (and an organization like Hamas surely has its share) it is a grave mistake to regard them as less than human, for in doing so we become the less than human.
No.. in a way they actually are so PERFECTLY human. But the problem with this is that we have to start to recognize them any kind of justification and when there's any kind of war you know that opposing sides will never accept the other's "justification".
I haven't saud they're less than human though... I said they're garbage... Just add a "human" to that.
Innocents have to fall in all battles, haven't they?
No, especially in view of the precision afforded by modern weaponry. So much is mandated by the Geneva Conventions.
Utopia. Even the US constantly makes mistakes with its most advanced weaponry.
Geneva conventions can exist between nations fighting each other... here we have a terrorist group... It's the same thing I've been hearing in southamerica...
If the Palestinians are so fond of creating chaos and making life for Israelis an inferno, well... better expect some less-than-pink consequences...
Actually, most Palestinians and Israelis would prefer to live in peace (in fact, read Haaretz or The Jerusalem Post for some frank Israeli criticism of their government's actions). That some politically motivated groups exploit circumstances to the advantage of certain power structures is transparent. I suggest that you research on how frequently the Israeli military violates basic international laws and standards.
Believe me I'm not lover of the middle-east in general, as they're still pretty much obsessed with their religions... But as someone said, at least the Israelis don't try to force Judaism into you....
As for manipulation, the day everyone knows as much as you WL, that will end. Right now, there is herd, and there are the ones that rule. We will play what the ones above play.
|
|
|
|
|
|
BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:20 |
|
T, Chomksy is definitely NOT one of those left-wingers you mention; his works are well worth reading. and I have no idea where you get the idea he is belittling the terrors of the Cambodian regime from. believe me, this would be very untypical for Chomsky
|
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
|
|
jimmy_row
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 11 2007
Location: Hibernation
Status: Offline
Points: 2601
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:23 |
I don't think this is as much of a "game" as people have been telling me for years. I don't know much aside from what I've seen in the news and history class, but there seems to be an innate grasp of religion throughout the Middle East, and with two sides having beliefs that directly contradict each other, I find it hard to blame it solely on other nations, politics, or even on their own leaders. It's been said - this is more complicated than a power game.
Edited by jimmy_row - January 14 2009 at 11:24
|
|
Signature Writers Guild on strike
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:25 |
|
^I've always wanted to pick one of his books but I've felt less than happy to do so for his political views which I've always thought are too friendly with dictators (do you remember how Hugo chavez reccomended his book in the UN forum a few months ago? ). But as with everything, I'll end up reading him and making my own decision. I hope it's like you say.
|
|
|
|
BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:33 |
|
Chomsky is ANYTHING but friendly with dictators; I don't know where you get that idea from. and though Hugo Chavez is a shady figure and I don't trust him at all, some of what he says has more than just a grain of truth in it. he is not automatically wrong just because he is a communist
|
A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
|
|
WinterLight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 09 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 424
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:37 |
The T wrote:
Here you have me. I haven't read a whole work since a read several (by different authors) comments and analysis of his work in which it's clear he makes the cambodian holocaust seem so little that he practically denies there ever was one. You're right that I lack better evidence. But I know left-wingers WL (I AM also kind of left-wing... here in the US though... for in my countries being left-wing is pretty much being a defender of suicidal-crazy Che Guevara) and I know how ready they are to recognize atrocities made by opposing governments but how cautious they are to do the same with "misdeeds" and "errors" (as they call them) by dictatorships like Castro's or any other communist one.
I appreciate your honesty--that in itself is a rare commodity these days. Anyhow, I really don't consider Chomsky as a left-winger. Yes, he considers himself a social libertarian, but his opinions coincide with popular opinion (though unpopularly reported) in the US. If you read his work, then you'll see that he's critical of all power structures (right, left, or otherwise) but he chooses to focus on Washington because it's his country (and so induces a certain moral responsibility) and it is the dominant military and a major economic power in the world.
No.. in a way they actually are so PERFECTLY human. But the problem with this is that we have to start to recognize them any kind of justification and when there's any kind of war you know that opposing sides will never accept the other's "justification".
I haven't saud they're less than human though... I said they're garbage... Just add a "human" to that.
I think that I see what you mean, but I still disagree. Of course, I'm not suggesting that we simply send proven terrorists, or any gang of murderous thugs regardless of whether they're led by oil men in business suits or fanatics arrayed in white muslin, to bed without dinner. How we go about the capture, trial, and imprisonment of criminals says more about us than it does the criminal.
Utopia. Even the US constantly makes mistakes with its most advanced weaponry.
The trouble is, though, that not infrequently no care is taken to avoid such mistakes. This sort of preemption simply is not given priority.
Geneva conventions can exist between nations fighting each other... here we have a terrorist group... It's the same thing I've been hearing in southamerica...
What distinguishes a legitimate military force from a terrorist organization? Certainly, not their methods, for they are identical. I frankly do not see a sensible answer to this question.
Believe me I'm not lover of the middle-east in general, as they're still pretty much obsessed with their religions... But as someone said, at least the Israelis don't try to force Judaism into you...
Well, this is a misperception of sorts. It's a mistake to conflate the people of a nation with the power structure of that nation. The situation in the Middle East isn't about Judaism versus Islam, although whatever antagonisms exist are exploited (successfully, as it turns out). As recognized by most analysts, a two-state solution would satisfy most people living there; it probably would not satisfy those who are profiting from the misery that the present situation creates.
As for manipulation, the day everyone knows as much as you WL, that will end. Right now, there is herd, and there are the ones that rule. We will play what the ones above play.
But I really don't know much of anything that requires serious scholarship--after all it's not quantum physics. Of course, it does require some effort to find information, facts, etc., not reported by the popular press. But if the will is there, then anyone could figure this stuff out, and I think that most people would come to the same conclusion. In fact, the most successful propaganda usually appeals to one's sense of justice and fairness; it's just that the propaganda alters the situation to make the unfair appear fair.
|
Edited by WinterLight - January 14 2009 at 11:57
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:41 |
^I'm sure that on one part of your sentence you're right Baldjean (the first-half)... On Chavez, please. What leaks through to Europe is 1% of the amount of idiocy and chaos that he has created. Even though, as you say, there may be a grain (emphasis on grain) of truth in his words.... Especially aided by the stupidities of W's government.
Without W, Chavezs wouldn't have a reason to bark. And without the high prices of oil, he would've been history long ago.
But please go back to Israel and Palestina. One day when CNN decides that the Middle east is not the only thing in the world that matters, people from all over the world will know more about what goes on in other areas. For now, let's remain focused in there.
Edited by The T - January 14 2009 at 11:43
|
|
|
|
WinterLight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 09 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 424
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 11:55 |
The T wrote:
I'm sure that on one part of your sentence you're right Baldjean (the first-half)... On Chavez, please. What leaks through to Europe is 1% of the amount of idiocy and chaos that he has created.
Whatever one thinks of Chavez and his policies, there has been a incredible amount of outright falsehood circulated about him. He's not a dictator: he's been popularly supported in elections monitored by international agents, who agree that they were not corrupt.
Without W, Chavezs wouldn't have a reason to bark.
Sure he would. Washington's assault on Central and South America hardly began with Bush II nor did it require him for its continuance.
And without the high prices of oil, he would've been history long ago.
He wouldn't have as much international sway perhaps, and he probably couldn't relieve other South American countries of their debts to the World Bank. No doubt it'd be more difficult to implement his social reforms without profits from oil. But do we criticize, say Kuwait or Norway, for exploiting their oil-based economy to the advantage of their citizenry?
|
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: January 14 2009 at 13:54 |
WinterLight wrote:
The T wrote:
I'm sure that on one part of your sentence you're right Baldjean (the first-half)... On Chavez, please. What leaks through to Europe is 1% of the amount of idiocy and chaos that he has created.
Whatever one thinks of Chavez and his policies, there has been a incredible amount of outright falsehood circulated about him. He's not a dictator: he's been popularly supported in elections monitored by international agents, who agree that they were not corrupt If we restrict the "dictator" label to those that weren't elected democratically, you're right. But when a presidents uses all his power to manipulate everyone, eliminate the opposition, impose constitutional amendments to stay in power for longer, and even closes media outlets like a prestigious Tv station because it dared to state a different "truth" nthan the one recognized by the goverment, then we're at least in the presence of some oxymoronic thing called "democratic dictatorship"
Without W, Chavezs wouldn't have a reason to bark.
Sure he would. Washington's assault on Central and South America hardly began with Bush II nor did it require him for its continuance.You're right. But to gather support in countries like mine and Bolivia, the best way to do it was to find a common enemy who constantly blundered and made stupid things... enter W.
And without the high prices of oil, he would've been history long ago.
He wouldn't have as much international sway perhaps, and he probably couldn't relieve other South American countries of their debts to the World Bank. No doubt it'd be more difficult to implement his social reforms without profits from oil. But do we criticize, say Kuwait or Norway, for exploiting their oil-based economy to the advantage of their citizenry? The problem is that he doesn't do it in advantage of their people. Check economic statistics: the average venezuelan is much poorer now. Crime is impossible to control in caracas. Money has given Chavez power to "buy" political allies in the world and also to give charity to the poorest in his cpountry, instead of doing actual reforms that help them in the long run.
The populist phenomenon in south america is much deeper and more difficult than north-westerners may understand. That's why the US and Europe got their policies regarding latinamerica wrong 50% of the time. they see everything through THEIR eyes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Israel/Gaza: Calling all UK forum members.