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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2011 at 04:04
Originally posted by Billy Pilgrim Billy Pilgrim wrote:

Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

I find it incredibly ironic, hypocritical even, that Dream Theater have the nerve to go on about rock cliches when what they do is itself very cliched.
 
Some may find me self contradicting, because I love Porcupine Tree. And they are a pretty accessible band who wear their influences on their sleeves despite the prog label. But they have a very immersive sound, and they do atmosphere incredibly well, which I find to be a more important quality in prog than technical perfection.


I think it depends. Some bands like Porcupine Tree, or Godspeed, are all about the mood and the atmosphere, and than you have Rush and ELP who are all about technical perfection and raw talent.
I guess I'd rather have deep melodies and texture than the other though.
 
I think you're oversimplifying a bit.
 
Rush and ELP used a lot of atmosphere in their music too.
 
And vice versa, Porcupine Tree and Godspeed are not technically incompetent musicians by any means.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2011 at 07:24
Originally posted by King Manuel King Manuel wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Dream Theater and Spock's Beard are King Crimson is the most progressive bands?  I sure as hell hope not Sick

You don't like King Crimson, we get it. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2011 at 23:18
Originally posted by AllP0werToSlaves AllP0werToSlaves wrote:

Originally posted by javier0889 javier0889 wrote:

Nothing really serious, but I don't like the word "technical" applied to death or extreme metal in general (although I like Death and Atheist). Any kind of music requires a certain technique, no matter the genre. Not only death metal with complex riffs and/or solos.

While there certainly death metal bands I would absolutely classify as "technical" (Suffocation comes to mind), I get what you're saying. I think the technicality aspect of bands like Death and Atheist was secondary to their sound i.e. they were just interested in writing really creative, well thought out riffs and parts as opposed to sitting around trying to be as tech as possible for the sake of it. Death "Human" is a perfect example of this (IMO). It's just like prog rock; it was a PROGRESSION of a musical style, not an intent to invade a super-specific sub-genre thus curbing creativity.

My main gripe would be post-rock in general. It never clicked with me and has always come across as an excuse to use lazy, un-creative guitar playing. It robs nearly all the good elements of rock, hard rock, and metal without any of the merit.  I'm not saying these bands aren't creative just because I personally don't like the sound, but anything with "post" in the title sounds like the diet or "reduced calorie" version of that genre. Add to this that it helped kick start the trend of clothing and apparel being just as if not MORE important than the actual music, and you have the decline of musical integrity in my area of the states. It was as if someone one day said "Wait a minute...we just have to look and at first listen sound like rock and get all the benefits of being rock stars?!" *Begs parents to buy expensive PRS guitar out of American Musical Catalog*

And while I genuinely support creativity in music in any form, post rock is where I draw the line. It is the prime example of the abuse of artistic subjectivity, and represents a certain decline IMHO. When progressive rock broke away from the mainstream it added MORE creativity than what it was separating itself from, not less. Droney, whiney ass PRS guitars bought by your rich parents does not make you a good musician; neither does learning how to perform blast beats, gravity blasts etc yet being unable to play something so simple as swing time. I'm not knocking down indie musicians as I am one myself, but it drives me absolutely bat sh*t when no skill or technique is actually understood yet they all claim to be breaking new ground. Rock is and has been going backwards since the early 2000's IMHO.

And before everyone makes the assumption that I just keep using the rich parent argument, come north of Boston where there are no jobs and look at all the rich whiney kids who don't understand nor appreciate what they have. I have seen rigs that would make pros jealous, all in the hands of ungrateful brats who sit around all day playing Xbox instead of utilizing their potential (or lack thereof). ESPECIALLY in New England, where post-rock and hardcore are as prominent as ever. Did I miss the memo that said we all had to trade in our musical integrity for our sisters pants and hair dye kit? When did fashion (besides 80's hair metal) dictate musical direction? THESE are the kids who are "breaking new ground" musically...?

And it wouldn't even be that bad if every friggin' band didn't glamorize the art of being a social victim. "My girlfriend dumped me; time to take on the world with my futility and ignorant understanding of life based entirely on events that I've seen in Hollywood films such as Edward Scissorhands and Donnie Darko! I truly understand the depth and veracity of human emotion!" I enjoy music that liberates, not binds. If chiming along with bitchy dudes who look like girls is creative, meaningful, and poetic then I truly am from another dimension. Bear in mind that everything where I live is considered post rock; I don't know about you guys but in New England it seems that it's either post rock, metal or hardcore.

I think you're confusing the fanbase and the music. Certain bands I can see these complaints being leveled at, but to refer to a group like Sigur Ros, Godspeed You! Black Emperor or Isis as being "lazy and uncreative" is just appallingly inaccurate. You may not like how they sound, but have some respect for the craft, at least.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2011 at 23:23
Originally posted by Eärendil Eärendil wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Eärendil Eärendil wrote:

Anything prog-related that just plain bothers you.

Mine is when people say "prog metal" instead of "progressive metal".  There's a difference Angry

what's the difference? isn't the word "prog" just short for progressive?

In the case of prog metal versus progressive metal, I know of none.

but i see people make a distinction between "prog" and "progressive rock"; isn't it the same thing?

why do we bury ourselves in semantics?


Prog is undeniably progressive rock, but something can be progressive without being prog.

???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2011 at 01:34
Originally posted by 40footwolf 40footwolf wrote:

Originally posted by Eärendil Eärendil wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Eärendil Eärendil wrote:

Anything prog-related that just plain bothers you.

Mine is when people say "prog metal" instead of "progressive metal".  There's a difference Angry

what's the difference? isn't the word "prog" just short for progressive?

In the case of prog metal versus progressive metal, I know of none.

but i see people make a distinction between "prog" and "progressive rock"; isn't it the same thing?

why do we bury ourselves in semantics?


Prog is undeniably progressive rock, but something can be progressive without being prog.

???!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Agreed 100%.  Progressive music is not the sole preserve of prog, if that's what he means and I don't mean just the Stravinskys and Miles-es.  I would say Bobby McFerrin is progressive for his approach to vocals but not prog rock.  I wouldn't call Michael Hedges prog rock either but Aerial Boundaries is progressive with regard to guitar music in general.


Edited by rogerthat - February 13 2011 at 01:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2011 at 01:51
I am so lost.
Heaven's made a cesspool of us all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2011 at 02:07
Originally posted by 40footwolf 40footwolf wrote:

I am so lost.

Some people feel that prog refers solely to progressive rock, while progressive refers to any forward movement in music. So I guess that Earendil means that prog metal is progressive metal that moves towards the ideals of prog rock, while progressive metal is simply metal that progresses forward in some way. 

However, this is kind of insane and makes discussions less clear, not more.
 
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

I find it incredibly ironic, hypocritical even, that Dream Theater have the nerve to go on about rock cliches when what they do is itself very cliched.

Here is a good pet peeve: any time somebody complains about rock cliches in song form. It's always insufferable and the actual song to go with it is usually terrible as well. 
 
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

Wtf was so goddamn tragic about 1990 that you never shut up about it?

Walter is by far PA's most successful troll, that is what. He still gets people pissed off with his stupid gimmick but he also has somehow managed not to get banned yet. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2011 at 02:14
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by 40footwolf 40footwolf wrote:

I am so lost.

Some people feel that prog refers solely to progressive rock, while progressive refers to any forward movement in music. So I guess that Earendil means that prog metal is progressive metal that moves towards the ideals of prog rock, while progressive metal is simply metal that progresses forward in some way. 

However, this is kind of insane and makes discussions less clear, not more.
  

Well, this confusion persists because not all progressive music is deemed eligible for PA, and by implication to be called "prog".  In fact,to be more specific, not even all PROGRESSIVE rock is deemed prog because it is supposed to be somehow affiliated to the prog scene or existing prog music in some sense. I understand the need to do this to make sense of the database but that is what creates this distinction.  We cannot yet use progressive and prog interchangeably because prog simply refers to that progressive (hopefully!) rock that is generally called as such and not necessarily to rock based music that is progressive.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 14 2011 at 02:41
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by 40footwolf 40footwolf wrote:

I am so lost.

Some people feel that prog refers solely to progressive rock, while progressive refers to any forward movement in music. So I guess that Earendil means that prog metal is progressive metal that moves towards the ideals of prog rock, while progressive metal is simply metal that progresses forward in some way. 

However, this is kind of insane and makes discussions less clear, not more.
 
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

I find it incredibly ironic, hypocritical even, that Dream Theater have the nerve to go on about rock cliches when what they do is itself very cliched.

Here is a good pet peeve: any time somebody complains about rock cliches in song form. It's always insufferable and the actual song to go with it is usually terrible as well. 
 
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

Wtf was so goddamn tragic about 1990 that you never shut up about it?

Walter is by far PA's most successful troll, that is what. He still gets people pissed off with his stupid gimmick but he also has somehow managed not to get banned yet. 
 
He's still NOWHERE near as bad as Alitare though. Oh hell f**king no.
 
Some of the most infuriating members on this forum for me aren't trolls at all though.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 14 2011 at 02:47
Also is that another subliminal stab at PT I sense there?

Edited by boo boo - February 14 2011 at 02:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 14 2011 at 03:05
Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

Originally posted by Billy Pilgrim Billy Pilgrim wrote:

Originally posted by boo boo boo boo wrote:

I find it incredibly ironic, hypocritical even, that Dream Theater have the nerve to go on about rock cliches when what they do is itself very cliched.
 
Some may find me self contradicting, because I love Porcupine Tree. And they are a pretty accessible band who wear their influences on their sleeves despite the prog label. But they have a very immersive sound, and they do atmosphere incredibly well, which I find to be a more important quality in prog than technical perfection.


I think it depends. Some bands like Porcupine Tree, or Godspeed, are all about the mood and the atmosphere, and than you have Rush and ELP who are all about technical perfection and raw talent.
I guess I'd rather have deep melodies and texture than the other though.
 
I think you're oversimplifying a bit.
 
Rush and ELP used a lot of atmosphere in their music too.
 
And vice versa, Porcupine Tree and Godspeed are not technically incompetent musicians by any means.


Of course not. I just meant generally.
Examples would be instrumentals. While PT we have phsycedalic things, moody passages, like allot of the things off Signify. Rush had YYZ!  And atmoshpere as well. Strangioto would be a good example on that. They actually referred to Strangioto as "an excercise in self indulgence"
Trust me I could never say PT aren't talented with there instruments after I saw them live.


Edited by Billy Pilgrim - February 14 2011 at 03:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2011 at 23:19
People knocking Dream Theater and saying they've got no emotion or soul.

People knocking Dream Theater because they don't like Labrie.

People Knocking Dream Theater for no apparent reason at all.
PROG ON!!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2011 at 14:27
The first two are absolutely valid reasons to knock Dream Theater. I don't think anyone knocks Dream Theater for no reason at all. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2011 at 15:01
It's not true that Dream Theater have got no emotion or soul. I don't like James LaBrie, but that's not my reason for disliking. It's because I can't stand the way they try to mix of heavy and soft: Especially on newer albums, it's like someone took nu metal and slapped some 70s prog and power metal on it. I can't help but feel the ingredients aren't mixed properly (well, and I think that the nu metal part needs to be removed as quickly as possible). I also never liked melodic vocals over heavy, groove-oriented guitar, so that's another issue. DT are a capable band, but I can't stand most of the stuff they do. Has nothing to do with what you mentioned, and I think most people just don't really understand what they like about the band, so they invent reasons like that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 16 2011 at 19:43
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:

It's not true that Dream Theater have got no emotion or soul. I don't like James LaBrie, but that's not my reason for disliking. It's because I can't stand the way they try to mix of heavy and soft: Especially on newer albums, it's like someone took nu metal and slapped some 70s prog and power metal on it. I can't help but feel the ingredients aren't mixed properly (well, and I think that the nu metal part needs to be removed as quickly as possible). I also never liked melodic vocals over heavy, groove-oriented guitar, so that's another issue. DT are a capable band, but I can't stand most of the stuff they do. Has nothing to do with what you mentioned, and I think most people just don't really understand what they like about the band, so they invent reasons like that.


Obviously, no band can objectively be said to have no emotion or soul.  When people say that, they simply mean it's not all that soulful or not as soulful as they'd like but DT fans generally interpret it too literally. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 15:19
The way some bands/artists go commercial from prog and are idealised for it and some do it and get written off as sell outs for the rest of their careers, and this bias never being anything to do with the music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2011 at 00:29
Soaring guitars and lush keyboards. Whenever a band has that in their page I tend to stay away... 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2011 at 19:37
Originally posted by frippism frippism wrote:

Soaring guitars and lush keyboards. Whenever a band has that in their page I tend to stay away... 

...but.... but that's the single most important quality of symphonic rock! ConfusedLOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2011 at 19:48
Horrific Album Art
Comparing an artist to Pink Floyd, wether the influences are obvious or nonexsistant.
Albums with way too many songs. 14+
Being uninteresting or turned off from a band becasue they're foreign.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2011 at 20:18
Well, as a veteran , I am totally tired of all the judgemental liberties of our "modern society". Yes, we are certainly entitled to our opinions but like my philosophy teacher once said "At the very least, get some facts straight!" LOL.
 
But "this is prog/not prog" is sickening to the nth degree..... First the term "progressive " was in response to 60s  where rock n roll was 2 minutes and 30 seconds of music , most of the time and "long" was like 4 minutes!!!!! .  
So the psychedelic crowd in SF area started these extended jams that made the rock... er... progress.
When anyone attacks a band as "retro" , my reaction is , after 50 years of rock music, nothing is really new or progressive, as evry combination possible has been recorded by someone , somewhere ...
I mean goth/electro/rap/indie/world is new Confused ?????? C,mon , already.
 
As John Collinge of Progression magazine once said" Prog? you will know it when you hear it! "
We all have different tastes (Thank Goodness or else it would be only Big Brother RecordsOuch ) , so , guys, give it a break.
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