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Teaflax

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 11:13

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Actually, I think I understand the W&G type humor very well.

Then why did you use it as an example of something that's demeaning to homosexuals?

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

That might explain the lack of humor in your posts - maybe you had enough of it. Wink

Honestly, I'm not surprised you don't see the humor that's often there, since it is - how shall we say - not overt. I made a funny just there (and without a smiley, too), in case you need it pointed out to you.

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

I wasn't defending bigotry. I just think that some people in this forum might take it far more seriously as it was intended to be ... "gay" in the context of Prog Rock vs. Prog Metal might very well mean "un-manly", "feminine-side", ... "uncool for a guy" if you will, which is not politically correct, but also not bigotry as far as I am concerned.

It was stated to not mean gay in the sense of homsexual or even effeminate, but as "lame", i.e. bad. If you don't think that's bigoted, you're living in some bizarro world where "bad" actually means "super-good and acceptable", I guess.

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

BTW: W&G is nothing compared to South Park, which in turn is NOTHING compared to MPFC as far as homosexuality is concerned.

Please, please, please, stick to topics you understand, Mike. W&G, SP and Python are three such incredibly different beasts that comparing them in any way shape or form is simply absurd.

And it's an utterly weird statement that Python would somehow be worse "when it comes to homosexuality" - whatever that's supposed to mean, since it's certainly not bigoted at all. South Park, however, is the show that has brought bad = gay into popular parlance, while reducing satire to nonsensical insults against everyone, instead of taking a stand for anything.

Now you're just being all Aaron about it.

Edited by Teaflax - July 04 2006 at 11:14

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 11:15

laplace wrote:

damn, but Ivan and Teaflax are spot on here. (in reference to the actual subject, not the PC crap that I could have done without reading.)

No-one I talk to about metal considers Agalloch progressive and we all tend to laugh about stuff like Symphony X which is sort of progressive thirty five years too late. Nightwish is the most egregious example of obviously unprogressive music worming its way in for no good reason. Either take in other genres (let's not touch on Squarepusher and Venetian Snares again just yet but you know they deserve it) or keep this site focused on progressive ROCK, and if that means splitting away some of heavily jazz-based music (avant-garde in general) then so be it.

oh.... I do disagree... I think there is too much emphasis on the Rock and not enough on the progressive already... I can tell I'm not going to have much fun trying to convince people that Dave Brubeck should be here when in fact he was more prog... by distances approaching light-years... then much of what is done today. If he was jazz.. so what... this is or should be a prog site... not a rock that happens to be progressive site.

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laplace

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 11:21

well, that's what I mean micky, and i'm not the first to say it. equal focus on all progressive genres or pure focus on rock. the balance is currently tipped.

Teaflax

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 11:22

Also, for those aarons who thought it was, please note that my stance is not PC.

You see, the often mythical canard of Political Correctness was about renaming things to be non-offensive, which was in most cases insanely stupid.

However, not allowing a word be hijacked in the name of demeaning a persecuted group is the exact opposite of that, because it is not about changing nomenclature, but about retaining it and keeping it unsullied by negative connotations that are entirely unnecessary.

Now, if I suggested that the word "gay", now sullied by eedjits to mean "bad/lame/awful", should not be applied to actual homosexuals, but be changed to "same-gender-attracted-person", that would be PC.

Edited by Teaflax - July 04 2006 at 11:23

micky

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 11:23

laplace wrote:

well, that's what I mean micky, and i'm not the first to say it. equal focus on all progressive genres or pure focus on rock. the balance is currently tipped.

sorry... must not have read it right... still feeling the after-effects of a rough night hahah

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 11:28

This-stops-here. Wink

BTW: I must admit that I didn't realise that Aaron used the word "gay" in the context of "these gay ads" in this thread. Of course in this context it IS bigotry ... I was thinking of an usage in a context which allows the interpretation as "feminine" etc..

Sorry!

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - July 04 2006 at 11:33

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laplace

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 11:30

well, that's what I mean micky, and i'm not the first to say it. equal focus on all progressive genres or pure focus on rock. the balance is currently tipped.

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 11:43

DELETED BY AUTHOR, READ TWO POSTS BELLOW, BTW Not shouting

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 04 2006 at 12:03

Teaflax

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 11:43

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

This-stops-here. Wink

Thank you, I appreciate that. Smile

Anyways, I think it would be beneficial for the site to think about opening up the idea of Prog to non-Rock, and to consider if Rock might not be accepted too easily.

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 11:51

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

This-stops-here. Wink

my interp as an American who hears it used all the time is not feminine.. but lame.... it's commonly used even by public officials hahahha Wink

Though I think Ozzie did have the INTENT there to harm hahha

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 11:53

Teaflax wrote:

Anyways, I think it would be beneficial for the site to think about opening up the idea of Prog to non-Rock, and to consider if Rock might not be accepted too easily.

I agree and since I'm on a mission and you know your music.... let me put it to you straight then.. should Dave Brubeck be included here at progachives.

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 11:57

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Now in Bold black to separete what I'm saying, most of yur post was Ok, but still there's some agressivenes

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

If Prog Metal is not a sub genre of Prog then it shouldn't be here unless we change the name to Prog and Prog Metal Archives.
That's poor logic ... I thought you were an intelligent man, why do you resort to such lowest of rethorical means?

Why is it poor logic? ProgArchives is a Progressive Rock website, all the bands here are Prpgressive Rock bands and are ascribed to one sub genre, Prog Metal is described as a sub-genre of Prog here and everywhere, so if it's not part of Prog it doesn'tr bel9ong here.

But I honestly believe it's a sub-genre, every major Progressive Rock site considers Prog Metal a sub-genre of Prog, so this is new for me.
*sigh* ... I won't talk about this with you unless you're willing to be *precise*. Neither do I want to post my chart once again, which shows how a genre can both be not a direct sub genre of Rock and at the same time be so closely related to it that it deserves to be listed here.

GEPR
Proggnosis
Progressive Ears
Progressor

All are major Progressive Rock sites and all consider and include Prog Metal as a sub-genre of Progresive Rock.

BTW: Now are you trying to say I'm not intelligent because you don't agree with me? Hey try not to be offensive, even when I don't consider it as insult because I know myself.

Because Prog is part of Rock and I suposed Prog Metal was a sub-genre of Progressive Rock, but seems you believe it's a parallel entity.
Ok, I'll post the chart on my website. But in the interest of keeping it simple: Do you really think that Metal is not related to Rock? I don't hope so. And if you accept that the genres are related, then so are Prog Rock and Prog Metal.

Please you're the one implying that Metal is not Rock when you say and I quote Prog + Rock = Prog Rock....¨Prog + Metal = Prog Metal.

Also wen you say Prog Metal is not a sub genre of Progressive Rock you are saying again that Prog Metal is not Rock.

I said from the start that I believe Pro Metal is a sub-genre of Progresive Rock and for that reason obviously Metal is also part of Rock.

But..........hey cool out, I have said nothing against Prog Metal as many other people have done and you're reacting as if I had insulted you.
I don't feel personally insulted ... I am only replying to the statements you make.

Well you said that I ws calling you morons when I clearly stated just the opposite, you're the one that are saying I'm not an intelligent person.

Do I continually oppose to PM team?

Have i ever said something bad about you and your team?

Haven't I asked you for advice a lot of times in MSN

I was not referring to you with the above statement, but to all those people who are using threads like this one to complain about prog metal. I know that you are tolerating the team, I don't have any problem with you. I also appreciate your feedback, although I can't agree with some of the statements.

In that case please answer that in the posts that attack you or say things about your team, because it seems that I'm trying to insult you and your team which is false.

No, I'm only saying that most older Progheads and fans of other sub-genres don't understand Prog Metal and for that reason won't buy most of the albums listed in that Sub-genre (Unless you found another name than sub-genre).
Well, then why not just ignore it? Again I'm not referring to you, but to all people who don't like PM but continually interfere with the PM team. I don't like Krautrock, but I don't invade Krautrock threads saying "it's overrated anyway".

Now it's ok you're being specific.

BTW: Prog doesn't start and end in Genesis and Yes for me, always tried to understand new bands and sub-genres.

There are Prog Metal bands...of course, buyt still I believe there's a lot of plain metal (You have already admitted two bands if I'm not wrong), even if it's from before of your time you can suggest to retire them.
"Bands which are already here and have reviews won't be removed". That's a rule which wasn't established by me, but by the site owners. Unless they decide to change it, there's not much point to talking about removing bands like Nightwish.

Thanks - but you DO seem to think that they're not qualified to make the decisions.

Hey You seem paranoic, if I say something you're not comfortable you shout and if I just said that you and your team mates are honest and capable people but you also are upset.
I'm not upset ... and you started the shouting (bold letters). Wink

No Mike, my first post was in black,m not bold letters, I used the bold letters in my seconf post just to clearly separate my statements from your's just like I'm doing now.

[quote]

I always thought that a Prog sub-genre was mainly Prog Rock with another influence, if it's classical, we consider it Symphonic (in most cases) if it's folk we call it Prog Folk, etc. But seems in Prog Metal doesn't work like this.

I could quote all my post, but it would be a wasteof space, all my foirst post was wrutten in plain Verdana font size 2

BTW: Isn't it funny that all your post is in bold except this statement about bold letters seems your anger is playing games with your mind.

But you have to admit that if you say "There are some 99% Metal bands with a couple of keyboard solos, then inmediately are added to Prog Metal" you are questioning the competence of the team, and you cannot undo that by stating a few paragraphs later that you trust the team. It's got to be one way or the other!

I'm not even talking about this site exclusively Mike, read the comntext,,,many Prog Metal sites are doing that. When I refer your team I will clearly state it, I'm not afraid to so (At least I wasn't until I read your reaction).

Honestly, most of them sound as Metal to me and seems I'm not alone, but it's your call, read all my posts talking about your work, never said anything negative, but seems that other person's attacks have made you angry and I have to pay the bill.

You're not "paying the bill" ... your initial post just contained many of the points that I don't agree with, so my response partially became a platform for general discussion of sorts.

But if you don't want any advice or suggestion, I will simply won't give them, I have too many other things to do, but still you and your team (Atlossofwords had a better reaction) are always welcomed to give your opinions in the Symphonic threads.

Iván

Sorry if you got the wrong impression ... your feedback is always welcome.

Thank you, but if I had to be honest....I'm afraid to make suggestions or to give feedback.

Iván

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 12:00

Harry Hood wrote:

Wilco comes to mind when I think of progressive country.

There are probably a few others, but I haven't heard them.

Not enough to justify a spot in progarchives, not nearly as much as progmetal.

I am a major Wilco fan, but no, I don't think Wilco belong here, unless "prog" really does simply mean "good" or "not average radio fare."

To return to the main topic: to my old prog fan ears, an artist like, for example Bowie (or even Zeppelin or Hendrix) sounds much more akin to the original "prog" than most of the new metal (that I've heard) here.

Recently, in the non-prog music section, I posted re Paul Simon's new album, but got only one response (thanks Teaflax

I think there is no doubt that prog metal (and its generally much younger fans) has come to dominate this site (and I only see that domination getting stronger over time) but I really think prog metal is a different "animal" than what we used to know as "prog" or "progressive rock." I think PM is more metal than it is anything else, and that such a huge, immensely-popular genre really belongs on its own dedicated site with "standard" metal artists as its antecedants or "roots" -- not classic prog ones.

Please note: the above is NOT an "attack" on metal or prog metal or metal fans, but simply a considered observation by one man with no real say in the running or content of this site.

Anyway, back to my original question: is prog becoming metal (or even vice-versa)

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 12:03

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

ow in Bold black to separete what I'm saying, most of yur post was Ok, but still there's some agressivenes

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

[QUOTE=Ivan_Melgar_M]

Why is it pooer logic? ProgArchives is a Progressive Rock website, all the bands here are Prpgressive Rock bands and are ascribed to one sub genre, Prog Metal is described as a sub-genre of Prog here and everywhere, so if it's not part of Prog it doesn'tr bel9ong here.

Prog Metal is a sub genre of Prog Rock - at least that's *one* way of putting it. But at the same time there's a big difference between Prog Metal and all the other sub genres of Prog Rock: It's far more diverse, and looking at the Prog Metal bands it's obvious that it can be divided into sub genres which have a very similar structure like the other sub genres of prog rock.

That leads me to the conclusion that Prog Metal is not really a sub genre (meaning "specialized genre"), but a top level genre (meaning "generic genre") with sub genres.

What I meant by "poor logic" was that you implied that Prog Metal is either a sub genre of Prog Rock just like Prog Folk, RIO or Canterbury, or not related to Prog Rock at all.

GEPR

Proggnosis
Progressive Ears
Progressor

All are major Progressive Rock sites and all consider and include Prog Metal as a sub-genre of Progresive Rock.

BTW: Now are you trying to say I'm not intelligent because you don't agree with me? Hey try not to be offensive, even when I don't consider it as insult because I know myself.

There simply is no other website which sub-categorizes Prog Metal ... that doesn't mean that it wouldn't make sense. Refusing to explain it to you doesn't mean that I think you wouldn't understand it - it just means that I don't have the time to do it again and again. I WILL try to set up some pages on my website and provide links to them ... so I won't have to copy&paste the same stuff over and over again.

Please you're the one implying that Metal is not Rock when you say and I quote Prog + Rock = Prog Rock....¨Prog + Metal = Prog Metal.

I'm not implying that at all. Metal is a sub genre of Rock, and thus Metal will always be related to Rock. Metal is a form of Rock.

Also wen you say Prog Metal is not a sub genre of Progressive Rock you are saying again that Prog Metal is not Rock.

It is a "sub sub genre" if you will - that just another way of putting it.

I said from the start that I believe Pro Metal is a sub-genre of Progresive Rock and for that reason obviously Metal is also part of Rock.

Agreed. But Prog Metal has a similar sub genre structure as Prog Rock, and that makes it a sub genre of Prog Rock which kind of stands out (the other sub genres of Prog Rock don't have that structure).

But..........hey cool out, I have said nothing against Prog Metal as many other people have done and you're reacting as if I had insulted you.
I don't feel personally insulted ... I am only replying to the statements you make.

Well you said that I ws calling you morons when I clearly stated just the opposite, you're the one that are saying I'm not an intelligent person.

You did say that we let in bands without serious checking ... that's a way of saying that we're incompetent. Maybe I'm too touchy in that regard ... in that case I apologize.

Do I continually oppose to PM team?

Have i ever said something bad about you and your team?

Haven't I asked you for advice a lot of times in MSN

In that case please answer that in the posts that attack you or say things about your team, because it seems that I'm trying to insult you and your team which is false.

Sorry!

Now it's ok you're being specific.

BTW: Prog doesn't start and end in Genesis and Yes for me, always tried to understand new bands and sub-genres.

Well, at least I asked for the removal of a New Age band that was added i don't know why and released Reiki ,masage albums with long minutes of sounds of waves and I believe at some moment they will be removed.

I recall ... but this band didn't have reviews, except maybe one by a collab who could be contacted and asked. Removing a band like Nightwish would be a totally different thing ...

I don't ask control for the Metal Team because I chated with most of the Prog Metal team members or read their posts and I'm certain they are honest people making what they really believe in.

Thanks - but you DO seem to think that they're not qualified to make the decisions.

No Mike, my first post was in black,m not bold letters, I used the bold letters in my seconf post just to clearly separate my statements from your's just like I'm doing now.

BTW: Isn't it funny that all your post is in blod except this statement about bold letters seems your anger is playing games with your mind.

Bold letters and big font sizes often seem like shouting ... and what's even worse is that Firefox (which I am using) doesn't permit me to change the bold back to normal.

I'm not even talking about this site exclusiveley Mike, read the comntext,,,many Pro Metal sites are doing that. When I refer your teal I will clearly state it, I'm not afraid to so.

Mike, there was no need for offensive statements and agressive attacks, I still consider you a friend, we have talked and passed too many things in Prog Archives but seems some posts here made you angry and as I said I had to pay the bill.

I'm sorry if you feel that way ... I will try to be more careful in the future to avoid misunderstandings!

Iván

Sorry if you got the wrong impression ... your feedback is always welcome.

Thank you, but if I had to be honest....I'm afraid toi make suggestions or to give feedback.

Iván

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 12:13

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

GEPR
Proggnosis
Progressive Ears
Progressor

All are major Progressive Rock sites and all consider and include Prog Metal as a sub-genre of Progresive Rock.

BTW: Now are you trying to say I'm not intelligent because you don't agree with me? Hey try not to be offensive, even when I don't consider it as insult because I know myself.

Well, your last post explained all, but now just for debate:

At least another site called Proggnosis subcategorizes Prog Metal:

GENRE: Progressive Metal (Prog-Metal)

Overall Description: Based on the complex structures and many times the neo-classic venues of progressive music, the Progressive Metal sub-genre is normally though not always associated with sophisticated virtuoso displays, powerful riffs and heavy distortion on the guitars. ProGGnosis categorizes this Genre into the displayed sub-genre's below (left) and each sub-genre is further classified into the supporting styles.

SUB-GENRES

Click to view sub-genre description, styles & Artist listing

Sub-Genre Not Assigned

Technical

SUB-GENRE: Black

Overall Description: This sub-genre of prog metal is normally fast and brutal with growling vocals, orchestrated keyboards and associated to anti-Christian lyrics and concepts. ProGGnosis categorizes this sub-genre into the following styles:

STYLES (Click to view Artist List & Links)	STYLE DESCRIPTION
Atmospheric	This style of Black prog-metal is slower and more orchestrated than general black metal. it is normally operatic and many times instrumental in chorus. Bands such as Akhenaton, Elend and Mortiis are representative examples.
Folk/Viking	This style contains all the common ingredients of black metal but with strong folk intrusions Bands such as Butterfly Temple, Rakoth, Summoning and Nokturnal Mortum are representative examples.
Other/General	Bands such as Arcturus, Vintersorg, Ensoph, early Ephel Duath, and Agalloch are representative examples.

http://www.proggnosis.com/GENRE_PMSGGuide.asp

Something with what I still don't agree, IMO Prog Metal is just another sub-genre as Symphonic, Rio, Zeuhl, Neo Prog, etc. Not a patrallel entuity to Pro Rock.

Hope you don't want to crucify me.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 04 2006 at 12:15

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 12:14

Peter Rideout wrote:

Recently, in the non-prog music section, I posted re Paul Simon's new album, but got only one response (thanks Teaflax

). Now, I think most prog fans of around my age would much more easily get into a new PS album (heck, even Eno is on the disc!) than a new metal album, but metal threads heavily dominate that section of the forum. Are the older prog fans being pushed away by all the modern metal here?

Maybe they are ... but only if they take offense. Personally I wouldn't mind if the website and forum were divided because of that very reason ... but then again I'd appreciate if people would simply manage to get along with each other.

All subjective value judgements aside, I think a band like Tool is light years away from the sound -- and sensibilities -- of classic Genesis, Yes, ELP, etc. I would readily recommend a Bowie disc to a prog fan of my generation, but not a Tool or Dream Theater one. (Those I would recommend to a metal fan; especially a younger one used to today's often ultra-fast, often ultra-dark metal.)

Here it is again - Prog Rock eq. Old, seasoned persons ... Prog Metal eq. Young, ill-mannered boys. It's not true, not at all.

BTW: Of course Tool is light years away from Genesis, Yes and ELP. But then again Magma is too.

I think there is no doubt that prog metal (and its generally much younger fans there he goes again Wink

) has come to dominate this site (and I only see that domination getting stronger over time) but I really think prog metal is a different "animal" than what we used to know as "prog" or "progressive rock." I think PM is more metal than it is anything else, and that such a huge, immensely-popular genre really belongs on its own dedicated site with "standard" metal artists as its antecedants or "roots" -- not classic prog ones.

Please note: the above is NOT an "attack" on metal or prog metal or metal fans, but simply a considered observation by one man with no real say in the running or content of this site.

Have you considered that prog metal may simply be the youngest prog genre ... and at the same time one of the most active today? There are many prog releases from various genres today, but most come either from Prog Metal or from Experimental/Alternative/Fusion. If that is so, why shouldn't these threads dominate the forum from time to time?

Anyway, back to my original question: is prog becoming metal (or even vice-versa)

No, not at all. I even think that Prog Metal is on the decline ... at least the traditional, virtuose type like Symphony X or Dream Theater.

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 12:17

^ that's nice to know Iván - thanks for pointing me towards that website. Well, I guess that I have to thank the owners for not implementing my genres for nearly a year now - had they done that, PA might have been the first. Ouch

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 12:23

MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ that's nice to know Iván - thanks for pointing me towards that website. Well, I guess that I have to thank the owners for not implementing my genres for nearly a year now - had they done that, PA might have been the first. Ouch

That's quite a good website, which I use when I have to research the bands on the Symphonic list. Their genre subdivisions are very accurate, and they have an impressive database of bands and musicians (many of them, I have to say, have a rather vague association with prog, metal or otherwise). However, I find ProgArchives much better in many other respects - first of all, the discographies and reviews are the best I've seen around the web.

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 12:59

Ghost Rider wrote:

I haven't really visited that website.... I'll check it out on the next round of bands...

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Posted: July 04 2006 at 13:09

Guys, for mine and others' sanity, can you calm it down and just accept your views differ? This bickering is getting you both nowhere and it's both making you look a little silly Wink

Sorry!