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Golden Brown by The Stranglers : Progressive?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greenmist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2020 at 03:30
I do agree that trying to give a universally accepted answer to the question "what makes a rock song a prog rock song?" is very hard to answer, especially by text on a message board where you cant play audio samples to express your point.

Its one of those situations where the answer is, "you know it when you hear it".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miamiscot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2020 at 14:28
The Stranglers occupy that weird territory (much like Ultravox or XTC) where all the progressive intentions in the world won't sway the obdurate heart. Great band though!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Icarium Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2020 at 15:05
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

The Stranglers occupy that weird territory (much like Ultravox or XTC) where all the progressive intentions in the world won't sway the obdurate heart. Great band though!!!
you wrote what i was preparing to write. I made a thread were i stated that Ultravox -Vienna (album) has an impact on later music of the 80s that is actually observable and can be detected, aestheticaly. Also the progressive side of the coin.

Edited by Icarium - August 17 2020 at 15:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BarryGlibb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2020 at 00:01
Hugh Cornwall and Richard Thompson (for those who don't know, which should be no-one!.... a founding member of Fairport Convention) were school buddies, and together in 1964 they formed their first band....see link below


A very odd combo!

Hugh caught up with Richard some 55 years later to guest at Thompson's 70th birthday celebrations at the Royal Albert Hall in October last year....see below

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2020 at 01:21
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Jean and I consider The Stranglers to be prog, simply because they often use real polyphony which is rare in prog even (Gentle Giant are a band that often use it). Any band that uses this highly advanced compositional technique should be considered as prog.

 
You've mentioned this before and I think you said it was in a track on Black And White. Could you remind me which track(s) as my thicky musician mind isn't sure what you mean by polyphony?


My understanding of polyphony is different melodies, played simultaneously and harmonizing in a piece of music.

If that's the case, I would have thought it's quite common. BaldFriede refers to 'real polyphony' Not sure if that's something different..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote irrelevant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2020 at 08:06
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Some of the Stranglers songs were brilliant imho but I wouldn't call that track prog, but this lp is surely out there and parts are proggier than many bands on PA.
Weird and bizarre  to say the least....and it's one of my favorite strange lp's.
2 tracks.....








Was just about to post that second song you linked here. I've been investigating The Stranglers over the last few months. "Hallow to Our Men" definitely out-progs "Golden Brown". Some tracks from The Raven do too now that I think of it...

Anyway, good band! 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 27 2020 at 09:03
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Jean and I consider The Stranglers to be prog, simply because they often use real polyphony which is rare in prog even (Gentle Giant are a band that often use it). Any band that uses this highly advanced compositional technique should be considered as prog.

 
You've mentioned this before and I think you said it was in a track on Black And White. Could you remind me which track(s) as my thicky musician mind isn't sure what you mean by polyphony?


My understanding of polyphony is different melodies, played simultaneously and harmonizing in a piece of music.

If that's the case, I would have thought it's quite common. BaldFriede refers to 'real polyphony' Not sure if that's something different..


Two or more independent melodic lines played simultaneously and harmonising with each other (often employing consonance and dissonance), and in what's called true polyphony, each independent melody has its own rhythm to my understanding, which gives each melody more of a unique quality, and often different metres play with each other adding contrast in the interplay of the lines.

Really enjoying those The Stranglers clips above, by the way.

Edited by Logan - August 27 2020 at 09:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2020 at 02:07
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Jean and I consider The Stranglers to be prog, simply because they often use real polyphony which is rare in prog even (Gentle Giant are a band that often use it). Any band that uses this highly advanced compositional technique should be considered as prog.

 
You've mentioned this before and I think you said it was in a track on Black And White. Could you remind me which track(s) as my thicky musician mind isn't sure what you mean by polyphony?


My understanding of polyphony is different melodies, played simultaneously and harmonizing in a piece of music.

If that's the case, I would have thought it's quite common. BaldFriede refers to 'real polyphony' Not sure if that's something different..


Two or more independent melodic lines played simultaneously and harmonising with each other (often employing consonance and dissonance), and in what's called true polyphony, each independent melody has its own rhythm to my understanding, which gives each melody more of a unique quality, and often different metres play with each other adding contrast in the interplay of the lines.

Really enjoying those The Stranglers clips above, by the way.


Yeah, that's kind of how I understand it, but all the definitions I've seen, there's no mention of metre, but whatever The Stranglers clearly have progressive elements in their music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2020 at 02:17
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


Two or more independent melodic lines played simultaneously and harmonising with each other (often employing consonance and dissonance), and in what's called true polyphony, each independent melody has its own rhythm to my understanding, which gives each melody more of a unique quality, and often different metres play with each other adding contrast in the interplay of the lines.

 
So an example of that would be the middle section of Yes' Perpetual Change where there is a fast "riff" in 7/7  beats and a repeated organ bit in 6/8 beats, so both playing different tunes but matching up as they're both on 14 beats (which I didn't notice for quite a while)?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uduwudu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2020 at 06:41
The Stranglers punk is to prog as The Doors'  psychedelic jazz rock is to prog. (It's that keyboard thing). But less often.

Still if you really want a punk prog Stranglers challenge how about La Folie? The bass player sings this and he is to vocals about as well as Steve Howe is...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2020 at 12:19
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


Two or more independent melodic lines played simultaneously and harmonising with each other (often employing consonance and dissonance), and in what's called true polyphony, each independent melody has its own rhythm to my understanding, which gives each melody more of a unique quality, and often different metres play with each other adding contrast in the interplay of the lines.

 
So an example of that would be the middle section of Yes' Perpetual Change where there is a fast "riff" in 7/7  beats and a repeated organ bit in 6/8 beats, so both playing different tunes but matching up as they're both on 14 beats (which I didn't notice for quite a while)?

That's a better example for "polyrhythm." Though I suppose that also works as an example of polyphony as well. Really classic examples of true polyphony would be evident on many of Gentle Giant's works. They often have so many layered parts played by each tonal instrument. Take a tune like Cogs in Cogs or The Boys in the Band, for instance. Or Knots, for a vocal example.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 28 2020 at 14:27
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:


Two or more independent melodic lines played simultaneously and harmonising with each other (often employing consonance and dissonance), and in what's called true polyphony, each independent melody has its own rhythm to my understanding, which gives each melody more of a unique quality, and often different metres play with each other adding contrast in the interplay of the lines.


 
So an example of that would be the middle section of Yes' Perpetual Change where there is a fast "riff" in 7/7  beats and a repeated organ bit in 6/8 beats, so both playing different tunes but matching up as they're both on 14 beats (which I didn't notice for quite a while)?


That's a better example for "polyrhythm." Though I suppose that also works as an example of polyphony as well. Really classic examples of true polyphony would be evident on many of Gentle Giant's works. They often have so many layered parts played by each tonal instrument. Take a tune like Cogs in Cogs or The Boys in the Band, for instance. Or Knots, for a vocal example.


Thanks for writing that, I was thinking about what to say. I'm not that familiar with the Yes composition, nor have I studied much music theory, but had a listen and heard "it". I think it also works as polyphony, even if the melodic lines don't seem strong (kind of a mess to my ears) on their own or maybe work well in coordination from a formal music standpoint. It was cool to listen to and hear that. I don't know what true polyphony means in the sense that it was being used. It is supposed to be very hard to pull off well (formal composition), especially the more complex forms of polyphony.
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