Forum Home Forum Home > Topics not related to music > I Have A Question For You......?
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Applying ratings
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Applying ratings

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message
Proggle View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: July 01 2025
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Proggle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Applying ratings
    Posted: July 07 2025 at 12:39
I am thinking about posting a review and have been wondering if there is any core wisdom on how to interpret the ratings descriptors relative to subgenres or the site as a whole.

Specifically, the descriptor for 5* is "Essential: a masterpiece of rock music". There are many albums under "Progressive Electronic" that I think it would be a real stretch to describe as "rock" or essential to rock, though I affirm the rationale for them being genetically related to "prog" and they might be excellent on their own terms. So I think there's a difference between "essential to a progressive rock collection" and "a masterpiece of a very specific subgenre" (like ambient).

Even more specifically I am looking at an album listed here that is very clearly electronic ambient/drone, in my view brilliant, yet it feels weird to claim that it's an essential rock album. (However brilliant it is on its own terms, skipping it can hardly mean the same thing in terms of a prog collection as, say, skipping Close to the Edge, because the subgenre is more peripheral.)

I know reviewers are all making their own choices, and that any rating system is weird, but as someone considering being a new reviewer I am curious whether there is any established wisdom as to whether "essential" is supposed to mean "essential to progressive rock in general" or "essential to the specific subgenre"? Is it meant to be about relevance or just quality? That way maybe I can contribute minutely to order rather than chaos when I rate :-).
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65882
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2025 at 15:29
^ I used to consider the relevance of the rating standard guidelines when reviewing on PA.   Later I just pretty much said what I thought.

It depends on whether you believe a reader will purchase or avoid an artist's work based on your opinion.   Of course these days it barely matters because they can listen to almost anything on Youtube or elsewhere before paying for it.   The standard for adding an artist here is still fairly conservative---   it has to be progressive, it has to be rock (even electronic), it has to have been released on a proper medium.   So there are safeguards against something that is not prog-rock or not professionally presented.



"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
Back to Top
Proggle View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: July 01 2025
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Proggle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2025 at 18:06
Thanks. I figured there was a lot of individual difference in approach. I do find myself using rating average to scan the discographies of artists to decide where to dive in. And with some of the albums I am considering reviewing there are no prior reviews. Maybe the best tack is just to make sure the rationale is explicit in the review.

Edited by Proggle - July 07 2025 at 18:07
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65882
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2025 at 19:05
^Yeah you can use a rationale for a while, but eventually you should find your own voice and avoid qualifying or apologizing---   It's what you think and you should stand by it, otherwise it can come off as half-assed, y'know like :

"It's just my opinion, but..."

If you know rock and you know music, forget that it's your opinion.   Just have at it and screw what someone might think.

"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
Back to Top
Proggle View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: July 01 2025
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Proggle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2025 at 20:23
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Just have at it and screw what someone might think.


Ha ha, bold and invigorating advice :-). Thanks!
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 30522
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2025 at 23:31
5* is a masterpiece of progressive rock music. So we are talking about any genre that is recognised on PA and that includes Progressive Electronic. OK it may not rock as such but then neither does Harmonium and they are here as well. For that matter there is Robert Wyatt's Rock Bottom and tons of other great stuff that doesn't have to rock (even Tales From Topographic Oceans lol). It's more about your feelings and passion. If I like something a lot then it's 5 stars.
Back to Top
Finnforest View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17613
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2025 at 05:45
In my mind and intentions, a 5-star "masterpiece" is top 5 percent. Not if I like the album, which 3-4 stars do a great job of handling, but it also has to be something I consider absolutely essential/universal/iconic to sit on the "top five percent shelf" of my collection.

I am attempting to follow in the shoes of Hugues, who I've long considered the PA reviewer who rates albums in the best, optimal way, closest to the actual spirit of the stars definitions intent. If my math is correct, looking at Hugues 3000-plus reviews to date, 4.5 percent of them are 5-star. That's awesome and useful to me. I know when he rates something 5, it means something special and well beyond excellent.

Four stars is "excellent," which comfortably handles most of the great albums. That extra star needs to mean something well beyond excellent.

Edited by Finnforest - July 08 2025 at 05:57
Back to Top
wiz_d_kidd View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 13 2018
Location: EllicottCityMD
Status: Offline
Points: 1521
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wiz_d_kidd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2025 at 06:31
Originally posted by Proggle Proggle wrote:

...So I think there's a difference between "essential to a progressive rock collection" and "a masterpiece of a very specific subgenre" (like ambient).


I agree. I don't think you can call an album "essential" outside of it's subgenre, as many people simply don't like that genre, and it would be ludicrous to suggest to them that they should own or listen to that album because it is universally "essential". It may be deemed essential only within the subgenre.
"Instrumental music is an expression that words can never capture." -- Peter Baumann
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18890
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2025 at 08:31
Hi,

I was wondering what would happen if the "ratings" were completely removed ... it would force the "review" to be better worded and applied, instead of some sort of album plug, that happens with the ratings much too often.

Maybe we should enforce a completely different idea ... a new user/reviewer can not do "ratings" until after their 5th or 6th review ... and that might give some of those folks something to think about ... 5 reviews under the same name for the same album and band? Not likely to get very far!

Preventing any newbie to add reviews simply to advertise the band, would help in one way ... make the reviews more important all around, and likely flush out a lot of stuff that is over rated and just spam for a band, or a listing. It might also help the Admins, in not having to check 17/18 reviews every day that border on the spam side of things.

As wide open as things are at this time, the invitation is to do whatever anyone can, and I'm not sure that we need to have things that wide open at all ... in order to be able to maintain the quality of the work ... even though some might think that it is too stuck up ... in essence it is protecting the work of hundreds of others from being left behind.

A year ago I went over the reviews of one album and read over 50 of them ... and honestly? At least 10 of those should have been removed as they are not reviews! I'm not sure that we should be allowing what amounts to a bit of garbage onto the incredible amount of work it takes to make this board work ... we're adding more work that does not need to be there and can easily be addressed with some special needs ... and reviewers not able to rate anything until after their 5th review is a fair idea, even if some folks are not gonna like it ... let them go try and post somewhere else, where there are rules for the spamming of an album review as some listings on PA obviously are!

I wish there was a way to have folks at PA actually take a look at the suggestions, but when it comes to Mosh, I think most collaborators probably look at something else. It's ok ... I don't mind being the ugly duckling ... remembering that the bass in the lake don't care when momma and all the ducklings go for their first swim!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
Valdez View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1368
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2025 at 08:55
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

I was wondering what would happen if the "ratings" were completely removed ... it would force the "review" to be better worded and applied, instead of some sort of album plug, that happens with the ratings much too often.



DPRP has just done away with album ratings. They will review only from now on.
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/maxwells-submarine
Back to Top
Valdez View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1368
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2025 at 09:04
In reality there are very few "Essential" albums over the long haul. Many albums deemed essential by a few raters have been long forgotten over the years. Unfortunately an album only truly becomes essential after never-ending Sales and long term interest.

I have many albums I call Essential that no one else has probably ever heard of. I've given 5 stars to many albums. It's more of a 'personal taste' rating.
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/maxwells-submarine
Back to Top
Proggle View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: July 01 2025
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Proggle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2025 at 13:43
Still following this with interest - thanks for the suggestive discussion. FWIW, as a would-be newbie reviewer, the writing is more interesting to me than the ratings, and delaying the ability to rate would not scare me off at all, but if there are ratings I do welcome there being a scale that is not just "I like this right now," even though personal judgements will inevitably vary. I tend to agree that "essential" is not that common in the larger scheme of things (@Valdez) and is necessarily relative to subgenre (@wiz_d_kidd). One of the albums I want to review is essential to me and currently has no ratings or reviews :-) - I am under no illusion that my enthusiasm confers cosmic significance. I do want to recognize all the work that has gone into this site and at least try to use the system in a way that aligns with the hopes already invested concerning how it is all supposed to work.

If you really wanted to narrow the spread of review types I guess another way to turn the screws would be to have a forum thread for newbie reviews and require, say, 3 reviews deemed sentient by the mods before being cleared to add a review on the main site. It might take some tracking though.

Regardless, I'm glad for the insights into how folk are thinking.
Back to Top
Finnforest View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17613
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2025 at 14:34
^

It's really very cool that you're taking the site serious enough to be concerned with rating in the manner the founders intended, as opposed to what you see in some corners of the ratings universe, which is:
I like it = 5 stars.

Much of the internet seems to struggle with the idea of the middle ground, moderate ratings. Not so much here, but other places that rate.

Kudos to you for caring.
Back to Top
A Crimson Mellotron View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: September 10 2020
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Status: Offline
Points: 5964
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A Crimson Mellotron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2025 at 02:09
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

In my mind and intentions, a 5-star "masterpiece" is top 5 percent. Not if I like the album, which 3-4 stars do a great job of handling, but it also has to be something I consider absolutely essential/universal/iconic to sit on the "top five percent shelf" of my collection.

I am attempting to follow in the shoes of Hugues, who I've long considered the PA reviewer who rates albums in the best, optimal way, closest to the actual spirit of the stars definitions intent. If my math is correct, looking at Hugues 3000-plus reviews to date, 4.5 percent of them are 5-star. That's awesome and useful to me. I know when he rates something 5, it means something special and well beyond excellent.

Four stars is "excellent," which comfortably handles most of the great albums. That extra star needs to mean something well beyond excellent.
I have to say that this is probably the most accurate breakdown of the rating system on PA. That degree of moderation and trying to be a bit more "universal" when assigning three, four of five stars to an album is really valuable and what draws my attention is the often-unhinged use of the five-star rating. Not that there is anything inherently bad in it, but one should really think about the fact that very few albums are "essential masterpieces", so a bit of an objective overview doesn't hurt.
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21846
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2025 at 02:58
At AP we have a 0-100 scale, and 90-100 are labelled the "S-tier". When converting this to a five star rating only the S-tier results in five stars, whereas numerically you might expect 80-100 (one fifth). Then 80-89 maps to four stars. Then a comparatively large section (50-79) is mapped to three stars, 30-49 results in two stars, and anything less than 30 maps to one star. This non-linear mapping tries to reflect the significance we intuitively attribute to the stars:

5 stars: truly exceptional
4 stars: awesome
3 stars: decent/good, but not really great
2 stars: mediocre
1 star: bad
Release Polls

Listened to:
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21846
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2025 at 03:47
^ As far as rating distribution goes, it depends a lot on which releases one chooses to rate.

I guess that if one were to choose random releases, the result of a really "balanced" rater with no extreme biases would produce a bell curve like distribution with the peak at 30-50/100. This is simply because so much music is being released, and a lot of it is mediocre. It follows from the fact that it is now so easy to produce and release music.

But most of us are not choosing albums randomly. We tend to focus on releases we love first and foremost, and then maybe also on popular releases we dislike and consider to be "overrated". As a result, most users skip those releases which would otherwise be at the peak of the bell curve.

My guess for the most typical distribution of the "perfect" rater/review would be for it to peak in the four stars range, with very few five stars releases and fewer three star than four star releases and a few two stars ratings and again very few one star ratings.

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - July 09 2025 at 03:59
Release Polls

Listened to:
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18890
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2025 at 04:52
Hi,

Now I'm not sure ... I only rate "reviews" of mine, and never have rated another album at all ... which I would think is an area (if wide open) will be abused senselessly.

Most of my reviews, these days, are on the Jazz Music Archives, where I am working on reviewing the large bunch of ECM stuff I have and other jazz/fusion related stuff. In general, on the rock side, there are so many reviews on some albums, that I do not feel that we need to add another review. I mean ... c'mon ... who's going to bother even checking 5 or 10 reviews of ITCOTCK or any other album?

After a bit, I think it gets ridiculous, and honestly, I would prefer that someone could audit the reviews as some of them should not be there and considered "reviews" at all. But I'm a reviewer (over 600 art/foreign films), so saying that makes sense, but you're not gonna get me to review another Marvel Comic Book Review or another of those impossible bruhahas!

Edited by moshkito - July 09 2025 at 04:58
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
Finnforest View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17613
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Finnforest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2025 at 07:34
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ As far as rating distribution goes, it depends a lot on which releases one chooses to rate.

I guess that if one were to choose random releases, the result of a really "balanced" rater with no extreme biases would produce a bell curve like distribution with the peak at 30-50/100. This is simply because so much music is being released, and a lot of it is mediocre. It follows from the fact that it is now so easy to produce and release music.

But most of us are not choosing albums randomly. We tend to focus on releases we love first and foremost, and then maybe also on popular releases we dislike and consider to be "overrated". As a result, most users skip those releases which would otherwise be at the peak of the bell curve.

My guess for the most typical distribution of the "perfect" rater/review would be for it to peak in the four stars range, with very few five stars releases and fewer three star than four star releases and a few two stars ratings and again very few one star ratings.



Yes, this is a great point also and does affect things. In the past, I was buying and reviewing large swaths of stuff blindly, so I had much more 1-3 star reviews. Now, I have far less time for PA, and so I tend to just review the stuff which speaks to me in a positive way, thus almost everything I review is 3-4 stars. I'm still very stingy with that 5th star though. An album has to be basically offer me a cigarette afterwards in order to get the 5 from me.

Back to Top
Valdez View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1368
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valdez Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2025 at 08:15
Recently I listened to a new release that I loved ( which doesn’t happen very often ) and I gave it a 5 star rating. My opinion is that if YOU love it, why not give it a 5 or at least a 4.   Someone else will come along and give it a 1 or 2…. You can count on it.   After a year or two it will rise or drop into its proper place, or thereabouts. Some of the worlds greatest records are sitting at 3.75 - 4.00 after 50 years
https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/maxwells-submarine
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 21846
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeEnRegalia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 09 2025 at 08:29
^ If you really LOVE it, of course you can give it five stars. You said it yourself, it doesn't happen often. Five stars (or S-tier at AP) is exactly for those releases. The only thing I would do in these cases: Follow up on them a few weeks after and see whether that loving feeling was a fluke or whether it is persistent. If it was a fluke, the rating should be adjusted.

Sometimes the situation we're in when listening to music has a big effect on how we perceive it. Especially for first listen impressions, I've found that my opinion sometimes drastically changes on repeated listens, and I suspect that this is mostly due to changed circumstances.
Release Polls

Listened to:
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.168 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.