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Do the Beatles get too much credit..

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moshkito View Drop Down
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    Posted: September 17 2024 at 13:14
Originally posted by Steve Wyzard Steve Wyzard wrote:

Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

What the thread asks about the Beatles can be asked about Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra and all the other bigs of the last century.  

Elvis Presley and Frank Sinatra didn't WRITE/COMPOSE the songs recorded/released under their own names.

Hi,

Which ... btw ... is very important ... but we have to remember that not many of the hit songs on radio at the time, let's say early 60's (but keep it generalized please) were exactly written by the members of the band, and this changed big time with The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Kinks and many others. Heck go back to The Monkees and realize how much was written by Tommy Boyce and Bobby Hart ... and they had been writing a lot of stuff going back to 1961.

Your comment, btw, is one of the great changes in radio (especially in America with FM in the 60's) ... that helped bring out the new sounds and the new music, and kinda took the controls away from the recording groups and companies that were owned by the movie studios, who tried to get their stars hits to keep the money in house. They were the ones that defined the "copyrights" and how they were finally interpreted by Congress for the FCC, to take it away from a handful of megalomaniacs. 

One listen to American FM radio in 1971, would more than likely get you a good 90/95% of material done by the band singing it. But there still were many different folks writing stuff for others ... Kris Kristofferson was one of them, for example ... as were many others!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2024 at 13:30
I Am the Walrus pretty much sums up the influence the Beatles have had on me. Without hearing that one song, my musical output (strange as it is) may never had happened.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve Wyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2024 at 13:03
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

What the thread asks about the Beatles can be asked about Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra and all the other bigs of the last century.  

Elvis Presley and Frank Sinatra didn't WRITE/COMPOSE the songs recorded/released under their own names.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2024 at 12:18
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

...
They were one of the groups that showed other people "hey, you know, it's alright to play whatever music we want" and from that stemmed nearly all later music, popular and less so, even if the bands in question aren't influenced in the slightest by the music of the Beatles.  It was the concept of creativity for the masses that makes them so important

Hi,

I tend to think that the creativity was always there, and there were many albums one could get, however, they did not become "famous" or as big as The Beatles, which kinda kept things somewhat hidden. When  The Beatles made it big, and a lot of reviewers were giving it some intelligent comments, instead of discussing pop music, then things made it back to the fans faster and faster, which I think helped pretty much hurt the AM Radio band in America ... my neighbor, was a DJ on the Santa Barbara AM station and to give you an idea, he loved ELP, but could not play any of it when he was on the air, until a single was released properly. But the 2 singles that showed up, were not given a touch ... because the station did not want to give the FM Radio Stations any credit or appreciation ... at that point, it was not about the music or single at all ... it was about making sure "they were not competing with that station over there ... "

But the fact that "creativity" had been opened up some more, really helped ... 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2024 at 08:35
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Maybe a little bit too much credit, especially in recent times, but really I think it's deservedly so.  They were one of the groups that showed other people "hey, you know, it's alright to play whatever music we want" and from that stemmed nearly all later music, popular and less so, even if the bands in question aren't influenced in the slightest by the music of the Beatles.  It was the concept of creativity for the masses that makes them so important

This was the very second post on the thread and nailed it. Could have just closed it straight away after.

I'm not entirely sure what this thread is about anymore. It would be a joke to suggest that The Beatles were great musicians but the point was that they were empowered and influential. Their songs were everywhere. They actually had personality and were able to sell their music. I believe though that there was resentment towards them for no reason whatsoever. Yeah they could have spent more time becoming better musicians but frankly what difference would it have made? Arguably they could even have been an influence on punk as the dream of the 'band of not very great musicians that made it big'. Also they were living the rock n roll lifestyle in spades and as everyone now realises they were not the cuddly mop heads that the record company was desperate to portray them as. This also weirdly became yet another cliche of rock music. Oasis have even sold millions pretending to be a version of them lol If the Beatles aren't at least the most important pop/rock band of the twentieth century then who is? Christ, even the name sucks but that didn't stop them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2024 at 07:36
The mainstream majors and media, before the electronic age, had the power of influencing the listeners, but they had the power of filtering out who they tought wasn't profitable enough for an investment, they were used to spend money in advertising, TV shows and whatsoever. 

But you can advertise Plastic Bertrand as much as you like and he won't last more than a summer.
Beatles have been surely advertised and monetized, but it didn't happen with a lot of pop rubbish even if presented as the "new big".

They have their merits, and as Dave Gilmour said in response to Johnny Rotten: "Make your stuff and if you can sell it, fine" 

What the thread asks about the Beatles can be asked about Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra and all the other bigs of the last century.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2024 at 10:03
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

...
You don't get it, this is like the millionth Beatles box set released in the last 10-15 years.....More will follow since the subject is release years.

Hi,

I do, however, it would be more to the benefit of the listeners and the buyers to know one of the main differences in a lot of those releases. The first wave, specially for America, waas about the stuff that had been hidden, and lowered in volume to the background in a lot of stuff, in Sgt. Peppers and MMTour.

What is crazy (for me!!!) is how another edition of the same thing is going to be different. I guess that we won't hear this with that, and that with this anymore, and stuff will be so separated as to seem like the 4 guys are not together at all ... but it sounds better? 

I have not bought any redo by any band ... with one exception ... Solar Music Live ... which instead of redo's has a lot of different versions of the same thing, and they are all neat. I'm not sure that any redo will sound better in my inner mind and vision ... and one I heard (KC) was actually really poor in my book ... it also hid more than it showed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moonshake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2024 at 17:09
No
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2024 at 11:40
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Another money grab by your Fab Four, you all hurry up and pre-order For Nov release.........USD300.00 LOL LOL
...

Hi,

I imagine that it might be worth it, since almost all the Beatle albums released in America were taken from masters found in a garbage bin in NY, or London, or Paris! They were terrible.

I discovered this around 1972/1073 when out of curiosity and the fact that the cover was very different from the American version for the album MEDDLE by PF ... I also got the Sgt. Pepper's import ... and it was clean, and you could hear all the bits and pieces in the background. The same thing was STILL visible in 1974 with DSOTM, that was taken from another trash bin somewhere ... the background, and bits and pieces under it, were downplayed and were intentionally suppressed .... and I like to joke that it was a FCC somebody in America that wanted to clean up America ... and started with the words, not the smells of the bad rerecording to hide many details. I immediately bought the import ... and of course ... the posters were different and the sound of it was clear and the background bits were good enough to make a complete story on their own ... which, of course, later gave birth to THE WALL ... which for me is about all the bits they ever used.

So, in some ways, hearing a clean mix of the stuff, possibly in their original way, instead of another copy, would be kinda neat ... it won't make us feel any better about it all, but it will show the history of the Beatles with a lot more beauty than the versions in almost all of those albums that were, basically, ready for the AM radio as singles ... in Mono ... so to speak! Hearing it in pure stereo, instead of cardboard stereo wold make this a much more valuable purchase.

But that price leaves me out ... better things for me to get on Bandcamp!

You don't get it, this is like the millionth Beatles box set released in the last 10-15 years.....More will follow since the subject is release years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2024 at 07:55
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Another money grab by your Fab Four, you all hurry up and pre-order For Nov release.........USD300.00 LOL LOL
...

Hi,

I imagine that it might be worth it, since almost all the Beatle albums released in America were taken from masters found in a garbage bin in NY, or London, or Paris! They were terrible.

I discovered this around 1972/1073 when out of curiosity and the fact that the cover was very different from the American version for the album MEDDLE by PF ... I also got the Sgt. Pepper's import ... and it was clean, and you could hear all the bits and pieces in the background. The same thing was STILL visible in 1974 with DSOTM, that was taken from another trash bin somewhere ... the background, and bits and pieces under it, were downplayed and were intentionally suppressed .... and I like to joke that it was a FCC somebody in America that wanted to clean up America ... and started with the words, not the smells of the bad rerecording to hide many details. I immediately bought the import ... and of course ... the posters were different and the sound of it was clear and the background bits were good enough to make a complete story on their own ... which, of course, later gave birth to THE WALL ... which for me is about all the bits they ever used.

So, in some ways, hearing a clean mix of the stuff, possibly in their original way, instead of another copy, would be kinda neat ... it won't make us feel any better about it all, but it will show the history of the Beatles with a lot more beauty than the versions in almost all of those albums that were, basically, ready for the AM radio as singles ... in Mono ... so to speak! Hearing it in pure stereo, instead of cardboard stereo wold make this a much more valuable purchase.

But that price leaves me out ... better things for me to get on Bandcamp!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2024 at 07:43
Originally posted by TheLionOfPrague TheLionOfPrague wrote:

Yeah, they are the best bands of the '60s but there were tons of artists doing things that were very innovative and revolutionary like Mothers of Invention, Bob Dylan, The Kinks, the Stones, The Doors, The Who, Simon & Garfunkel, etc. Some people act as if they invented the wheel. 

Hi,

It's true, though ... it helped fuel and reinvent the wheels of our minds that were dormant? Specially so with Bob Dylan and then The Doors?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2024 at 04:44
Like many old artifacts, their importance has to be measured in the context of their times. Sure, we can say that the Beatles influenced many prog rock or art rock bands of that era. But the fact is that progressive music has moved on since then, particularly with advant garde and RIO. That's a great step away from pyshecdelic/space rock and 70's symphonic progressive rock. The Beatles did not influence all progressive rock music, with the exception of Revolution 9, I suppose. Lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2024 at 15:44
Another money grab by your Fab Four, you all hurry up and pre-order For Nov release.........USD300.00 LOL LOL

Beatles Monophonic 1964 U.S. Albums Box Set Coming Cut AAA | Tracking Angle


Edited by Catcher10 - September 13 2024 at 15:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2024 at 08:10
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

...
And another tidbit to edit in (I prefer that to making a new post and therefore double-posting): Not only do many claim that The Beatles was an influence on their music, and I believe them, but I can hear that influence in so much music. It is incredible the impact this group had on people in its relatively short existence operating, and the impact is still happening. It has had an amazing ripple effect. That's why I chose The Beatles for this topic, because of how very influential and recognised it has been.

Hi,

For me, the time and place has not been kind to a lot of music from the 60's, up to and including The Beatles ... heck, in Brazil, we bought "Aftermath" and then the "Between the Buttons", before we ever got any Beatles, which kinda tells you which songs the Brazilian radio at the time was playing ... we did not get a Beatles album until Sgt Pepper's I think (and here in the USA) ... not even sure of that.

Both the Stones and the Beatles were a huge influence in Brazilian music, although I think that Brazil was more centered on its own music than what a rock band could bring in ... the Brazilian music was well represented on radio and I don't mean Sergio Mendes at all ( he helped folks around the world get to meet/know some Brazilian music) ... I mean the real thing!!! and both the Stones and Beatles were quite far and away from that grassroots music, which was not just a regional something or other, like things are in America that really hurts how to interpret American music ... there wasn't such a thing, that I can remember or seen, in Brazil, though I think that some folks might add to my knowledge of it.

When we came to America, in October 1965, it was very noticeable that The Beatles were quite a trip on radio and then some, specially in Madison with its FM radio signal blowing out the AM radio folks making fun and bad comments about the new generation and the "hippies" in general ... to them it was all dirty and the music was included in it, but then ... Sgt Pepper's hit, and those 2 stations in Madison ate merde for breakfast, lunch and dinner ... and they started to do gown really fast, specially when they started saying bad things about The Doors, Hendrix and Janis .... and now the "importance" was kinda set some, however, the Beatles breaking up and not getting along, made things really sad and pathetic, and then the solo albums by at John and George, were not that good, and in essence brought their music down to a very pedestrian level that hurt ... The Beatles would never really get the appreciation they deserved, and it was at that time that I really think that it was George Martin that helped make them important, and though I would not criticize his not being on the last couple of albums, it showed ... George Martin has steered into something that the folks now wanted to get away from ... and this change made for a confused fan base, which we can see here ... but the quality of the  production and albums up until then, was enough to give ua a nice touch and idea ... though we don't give a damn about a lot of it, since it is all about the "song" and not the musicianship involved.

I do find it sad to see them trashed ... and I so want to trash Elvis, for example (I never will!!! for he showed how stupid and bizarre American television had become!!!!!) ... but I'm not sure that some folks give a damn about the history of the music and the folks involved in it ... and then think that the older stuff is crap ... I'm pretty sure that Beethoven, Mozart, Bach and others are turning over in their graves laughing at many of those folks!

But the media, and the Internet ... sure do not help things any either, except add to the ball of confusion!


Edited by moshkito - September 14 2024 at 07:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 09 2024 at 20:49
And I believe that those people and many others found The Beatles influential. The Beatles being hugely influential is obvious to me and I know it as well as I can know anything with similar anecdotal qualities. It is what might be called a justified true belief. Some people have more well-informed opinions than others, some have misinformed opinions. Some opinions are easier to justify than others. Some are more valid than others. People are going to have well-informed and misinformed opinions whether we like it or not. It's not just of interest to me what one thinks, but how one thinks.

A side-note: But one idea I loathe, and I have seen it here, is that all opinions should be treated with respect. And I have seen people say that all opinions are equal.

EDIT: Relating to the "Meh" comment, I recognise that different people have different interests and perspectives, and provided those are not harmful to others (and often themselves) generally, I will respect and appreciate that. Thanks to all for their lively and not so lively comments. I do appreciate the general positivity and consideration.

And another tidbit to edit in (I prefer that to making a new post and therefore double-posting): Not only do many claim that The Beatles was an influence on their music, and I believe them, but I can hear that influence in so much music. It is incredible the impact this group had on people in its relatively short existence operating, and the impact is still happening. It has had an amazing ripple effect. That's why I chose The Beatles for this topic, because of how very influential and recognised it has been.

Edited by Logan - September 09 2024 at 23:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 09 2024 at 20:36
^ Meh. All I know is that many of the most progressive performers in the 60s and 70s absolutely admitted the influential nature of The Beatles. A short list of those who have openly avowed their adoration:

Robert Fripp
Jimi Hendrix
David Bowie
Joni Mitchell
Roger Waters
Brian Wilson
Stevie Wonder
Black Sabbath (Ozzy and Geezer)
Al di Meola
Rick Wakeman
Peter Gabriel

That's a diverse group, yes? But people have their opinions. They are welcome to them. Personally, I know what I know and I couldn't give a f*ck about contrarians. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 09 2024 at 17:26
^ One might say that some threads have more days in their lives than others.

"A Day in the Life" is one of my very favourite songs, and I think of it as a primo progressive song. Nor would I question its influence on Fripp or any others. Credit where credit is due, for me there is no doubt that The Beatles have been hugely influential, have brought innovations into the rock context, and are a hugely significant band, but I have seen many people go too far when it comes to giving credit to The Beatles that does not seem warranted or deserved. I, and others, have pointed out various of those things in this thread, and yet still some will think that The Beatles deserve every ounce of credit they get.

By the way, anyone who may take this topic as somehow against the Beatles is not coming from the angle I am. I really like the Beatles and that should not even be at issue, my thing is that people can be bloody ignorant, are prone to exaggeration, and make very dubious claims. A question to me becomes, how common is it to give The Beatles too much credit when it comes to origination and innovation? And how common is "common"? By the way, these days I would have gone into more details in the OP, but I know I wanted to keep it short at the time as I did not want to over-influence others thinking and hear people's own arguments. Adding the word "common" to it wad problematic and I think a mistake. I would phrase it differently now. I had wanted to approach those for myself from certain philosophical angles (epistemology, ontology...), and hopefully leave space for humour to flourish to boot.

EDIT (just cause this came to my head while showering): It would not be disrespectful to The Beatles to counter the claim that The Beatles' "Yellow Submarine" influenced Jules Verne to write Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea, and therefore suggest that The Beatles are being given too much credit than they deserve in that case. But someone might say "No one claims that." Well, I have not polled the world. I do know one person who has said (or written) it at least, but I'm confident that he, that is I, does not believe it.

Edited by Logan - September 09 2024 at 20:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 09 2024 at 16:52
Damn, this thread is still going?

All I can relate is that Robert Fripp was driving home from college in 1967, and started listening to a song he had never heard on Radio Luxemburg. He immediately pulled the car off to the side of the road and listened to the song in its entirety. He was completely blown away. The song? The newly released "A Day in the Life."

He said the song "terrified me." He continued: "This one night. with "A Day in the Life" galvanized me. It was really the turnaround -- that's really when I knew..." Et cetera, et cetera, and out came King Crimson (via Fripp, Fripp & Giles). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 09 2024 at 15:12
^ Are you claiming that The Beatles did not invent blues and jazz?   

Originally posted by Pelata Pelata wrote:

It is impossible to give The Beatles too much credit...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 09 2024 at 12:31
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

No, but I think The Doors are better


Without The Beatles, The Doors would have sounded like this:



...

That is funny. I also think it's wrong, considering The Doors was influenced by blues and even jazz. Smile
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