70s Prog Drumming to Modern Ears

70s Prog Drumming to Modern Ears

The drum department on Moving Pictures and 2112 are considered some of the best drumming in rock but are they still as good, by today's standards? I fail to notice anything spectacular. Have newer bands learnt all of Neil Peart's '70s tricks already?

However, I find the drumming for King Crimson (Red) and Genesis (England) to be more unique sounding and intriguing than the two albums mentioned above. I can hear hints of Neil Peart in a lot of modern rock albums, but haven't found King Crimson and Genesis's drumming styles replicated by newer bands. So if people were trying to learn from 70s prog, why haven't they learnt from Crimson and Genesis?

On a related note, legendary 70s guitarists such as Robert Fripp, Steve Howe and Ritchie Blackmore, are these people still among the best by today's standards? If the bar has been raised for drumming, then it should be for other instruments as well.

Discuss or guide me to a thread that addresses the same topic.

Peart didn't have Jazz influence in his drumming, you serious?? 

Okay, so what would be examples of prog rock drumming that has Jazz influence, King Crimson's Red maybe?

Generally speaking, drumming and composition overall were vastly different prior to the 1) disco, electronic dance music, and the 80s when everything is grid-like and/or quantized, and 2) the introduction of digital audio editing in the 90s. These are watersheds that gradually decreased our tolerance for flexible time and tempo changes. Now, we are prog fans I assume, so we can take the time changes, but even still the rigidity of digital audio has its influence. A drummer now in the rock/pop genre is expected to keep very good time, and if he doesn't he will be edited to do so in post. Now, by my estimation, Neal was and still is a very tight drummer, especially in the 80s and on. Bruford is very certainly not, at least not on Yes and KC albums. This is to his credit though, as his flexibility allowed for much more innovation in polyrhythm than Peart had chops and immense creativity, but Bruford just thinks differently. Like a jazz drummer, which he is. Different styles for different purposes. Both are my most highly respected drummers in rock music.

paganinio wrote: The drum department on Moving Pictures and 2112 are considered some of the best drumming in rock

lolwut

'70s prog drumming is better than any drumming I could ever do, but that's true with nearly all drumming of any time period.

Horizons wrote: Peart revolutionized ROCK drumming. Though Hemispheres, Moving Pictures, Farewell to Kings, still are the pinnacles for rock drumming and Peart's drumming career it can sound unoriginal to today standards. Some reasons i think this may be is... -Influence is everywhere, so when it's compared to tons of other drummers since the albums have been released, Peart doesn't  have the same individuality he had in the 70's and 80's. -I can't really describe it well, but i think it may be due to not having jazz-influence. It doesn't seem as timeless. Kind of a repetitiousness statement, but it seems to be slightly different. Bias and uninformed opinion i guess, hope i don't look dumb.

no-one bear like Pugwash though (John Weathers) his syncopative grooves are to behold, and are very intricate, and hard rocking, he must have the tongue straight in the mouth, but his face is all wiggeling like a hamster

70's prog and fusion drummers raised the bar for the instrument and of course, each generation builds on the one before and pushes the boundaries further.  You can also add the proliferation of music schools to the list of reasons why there are so many technically proficient drummers (and guitarists, bassists, etc).  It's no different than something like running the 5 minute mile:  it was a major accomplishment the first time it was done, but now, competitive runners do it in half that time.

Edited by spknoevl - February 22 2012 at 07:47

richardh wrote: Putting aside technical skill then Fred Schendel as a case in point is interesting. He is actually the keyboardist in Glass Hammer but on their early albums like Shadowlands and Lex Rex he also played the drums. What is unique about him is that he plays with pure ' feel' using a small electronic kit (although you wouldn't know it listening to those albums). I miss his drumming on later GH albums which now have a much more technical cold sound as a result. I like Fred's playing which style wise could be described as a less technical version of Bill Bruford.   Modern prog drumming seems to be a lot more harder in sound. Perhaps the influence of prog metal has brought this about? I like Morse solo albums and Portnoy's drumming is a strong feature of them but bares little resemblance to classic prog drumming. Thats okay though.

Walter Moore, a drummer who became a guitarist, also played drums on those albums you mention.  I have no idea who is playing when on the albums though, since both are credited with drums.

As to Peart, he was an innovator.  Rush has had far more mass popularity than any of the other prog bands we talk about, therefore has probably inspired more drummers than Bruford or Collins (though Collins and Genesis were hugely popular in the 80s, it wasn't for the drumming at that point).

There haven't been any real quantum leaps in drumming since the jazz days of Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich etc. Everything that has been done since then can be directly traced back to them. Think of the jazz era as the great improvisational playground where almost every technique used in drumming today has been developed (yes, even extreme metal double bass techniques and blastbeats!). The merits of the great pop and rock drummers (including prog rock and fusion) lie in channeling these techniques into rhythms/grooves. Bear in mind that jazz playing is mostly improvisational and freeform, while pop and rock music are mostly strict and groove-based. Starting in the late 60s and early 70s, rock drummers began to enrich the drumming palette of rock (which to that points had been limited to rather few simple grooves and variations) by borrowing from jazz. Bill Bruford and Phil Collins are among the first generation of jazz-influenced rock drummers

John Bonham and Keith Moon would be examples of drummers that came before the jazz "explosion" in rock. They were certainly jazz-influenced to some degree, but they were also much more grounded in traditional rhythm & blues patterns. That's why they're so hard-hitting and steady sounding as opposed to the complex, "light" sound of Bruford and Collins (I say it in quotes because Bruford would pioneer heavy prog drumming during his KC years). Neil Peart was influenced by both the jazz-influenced prog drummers and the strictly non-jazz rock drummers of the 60s. He didn't innovate, but I credit him with opening the door for more complex drumming in heavy music.

Peart's drumming still sounds as good today as it was back then. It isn't and has never been among the best of rock drumming. I think the reason why Peart is rated so highly is that he's much easier to understand than many of the earlier prog drummers. Collins and Bruford often sacrificed accuracy for mood, so it's hard to make out exactly what they're playing. Peart is extremely accurate, almost machine-like, so it's easy to make out his parts and recognize them. It also helps that the production is much clearer.

That is one reason why he's copied more often than Bruford and Collins: He's easier to copy. The other reasons is that Peart is closer to the values of modern rock music, i.e. he's simpler and heavier. Bruford and Collins would be too "light".