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The Notion of Originality: Arguments & Discussions

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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Notion of Originality: Arguments & Discussions
    Posted: March 19 2021 at 09:05
Hi,

This is a very difficult topic to discuss. The main reason why is because of the media and the very fact that we can hear so much these days, as to make it almost "impossible" to think or feel that you can create something original.

Having worked with actors on these things, I sincerely doubt that "originality" is something that you can bottle up, and it relies on each and every person for its interpretation and eventual showing. And here is the worst part of that ... the fact that we do not listen to music, or appreciate the arts, for what they are ... INSTEAD WE COMPARE THEM TO WHAT WE LIKE AND KNOW ... ignoring what we don't know, exclusively.

There was one example on one of Peter Brook's books about Keith Mitchell when he did King Lear ... and it was scary for many of us, and our ability to understand that is impossible given the listening habits we have here ... there is a repeat line in KL that has "here" said 4 times in a row, and PB said that Keith did over 200 performances and not once did he ever repeat himself ... each night when doing his thing.

AND THIS, speaks of something else that we do not believe to be "original" because we CAN'T FEEL IT, or UNDERSTAND IT ... we do not know how it was that he could do that, and on top of it how he could so easily match it every night to the rest of his words and performance ... and KM would say ... don't ask ... I don't know!

Mostly, what could be said was that he got into the character each night, and today is not yesterday and the use of the words would be different ... but since we do not know any "justification" or have any "understanding" of how it happened, we can not make up our minds about it ... and think it is just some weird this or that ... when it has more to do with the person's identification of the feeling in that moment than anything else.

This brings up a great point about "originality" that is over looked ... when we do not know or can not "feel" what it is that is going on, and this is a serious issue with listening to many foreign bands here at PA ... you don't understand what Vittorio, or Christian, or someone else is saying ... and it alienates you, because you feel left out ... meaning that the likelihood is that you do not like to feel apart from that music, but the band presented it in such a way that does separate you from it. 

"Originality", and specially when involved in the "newer" strands of artistic representation (not just music, which is the worst of the big 3 arts!), gets lost in the wording ... because many can not define it ... but we refuse to look at how Stravinsky dealt with it, how Picasso dealt with it, and how many others dealt with it during their time, when in essence their expression was "personal" (most important) and not something that everyone else does ... and obviously copies.

I have never felt that anyone copies anyone, although people here have the awful habit of comparing bands because they use the same instrument, which automatically makes them a "copy" of some (supposed) original group ... and that has a tendency to diminish the artist's work to just sound ... when all that instrument could do was sound like that.

Until such a time as we stop "comparing" stuff, and learn to appreciate ALL music, I sincerely doubt that we can achieve a nice and complete idea as to what we are really listening to ... and this is specially difficult when most folks are strictly using their "filters" for what they like and don't like ... and not giving the work a chance to live on its own.

But a consensus about this is hard ... because this is a social media crapper and I sincerely doubt that most folks can "forget" all that and say something constructive about the whole thing that makes sense, instead of personal comments ... which I think get really boring after a while.
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2021 at 08:41
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Hopefully we're discussing listenable music. LOL

Remember music is not music anymore.......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 19 2021 at 06:24
It is better to fail in originality than to succeed in imitation. - Melville
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 15:38
I'll write a book series, that'll be 12 in total: from Einstein to Zwölfstein. Party
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 15:27
Originally posted by Crane Crane wrote:

Hah! It could mean ‘an Einstein’ in the generic sense of a figure who leaves a lasting impression on his field. A Bach, an Aristotle, a Shakespeare, etc.


You were right, apparently. All the online sources have an "an" there.

I was wrong, probably because I last read Laurence Coupe's "Myth (The New Critical Idiom)", and that academician somehow omitted/removed that word; thus it appeared  misplaced to my eye. It is an academical book from Routledge, written by a notable professor! Who will we trust in this world? Confused

Anyway, here is Mr. Coupe's coup attempt to dethrone T.S. Eliot's original textLOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 07:03
From my personal point of view, I can very well distinguish between what seems generic to me and what has an "original wow factor". I'd call things original that make an original impression on me, but of course I know that I don't know whether one can in fact find these ideas earlier elsewhere, and whether they 'd have impressed me in the same way, had I heard or seen the earlier version first. For my perception that's not very important, but of course I shouldn't use the word in a supposedly objective manner. Who am I to claim that I know all stuff? I may do it when I believe I know quite a bit, but it's always taking a risk.

Then, also claiming that something is "unoriginal" (based on not being of original interest to me) can go wrong, as I may miss some detail or context and may not get that there's actually more in it than what I find.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 06:28
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

There's nothing new under the sun. Most of the time.

As pretty much nothing is exactly equal to anything else, everything is new all the time, at least to some extent.
Also, all meaning depends on context, so if somebody does the same stuff that somebody else has done before in a new context (and all contexts are to some extent new), it's not the same anymore.

Regarding the term "original" it doesn't matter that much. Be it that nothing is new, be it that all is new, is doesn't  have much distinguishing power either way.


Edited by Lewian - March 17 2021 at 06:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 05:22
Hopefully we're discussing listenable music. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 05:15
I looked up 'Original' in the dictionary and this is what I saw...


Thank you for supporting independently produced music
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 05:14
It's hard for me to conceive of the notion of originality in music as nothing exists in a vacuum, music most of all. It's the combining of genres that's novel to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 05:10
^ I checked my e-book, and there's not an "an" there. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 05:06
Hah! It could mean ‘an Einstein’ in the generic sense of a figure who leaves a lasting impression on his field. A Bach, an Aristotle, a Shakespeare, etc.
“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 05:03
It says "of an Einstein", lol. That's gotta be a mistake, or Einstein was not unique? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 04:53
Nice, Crane! Clap

Here is a quote from Eliot, that is related.

In manipulating a continuous parallel between contemporaneity and antiquity, Mr. Joyce is pursuing a method which others must pursue after him. They will not be imitators, any more than the scientist who uses the discoveries of an Einstein in pursuing his own, independent, further investigations. It is simply a way of controlling, of ordering, of giving shape and significance to the immense panorama of futility and anarchy which is contemporary history. It is a method already adumbrated by Mr. Yeats, and of the need for which I believe that Mr. Yeats to have been first contemporary to be conscious. Psychology (such as it is, and whether our reaction to it be comic or serious), ethnology, and The Golden Bough have concurred to make possible what was impossible even a few years ago. Instead of narrative method, we may now use the mythic method. It is, I seriously believe, a step toward making the modern world possible for art. –T.S. Eliot, from Ulysses, Order, and Myth (1923)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 04:48
Putting on my contrarian hat:

I sense, implicit to “originality” as it’s being used in this thread, the idea of an isolated artwork or idea, having nothing to do with what has come before. I think that’s sort of the artistic equivalent to the idea of ‘spontaneous generation’ in the realm of science; in other words, loaded thinking without basis in reality.

To venture a counterpoint: it is the mark of true creativity to exercise the humility of realising one’s debt to what has come before. Hence Bach, who worked in the style of his day, even used melodies written by other composers, but developed these to such an extent that it has left its mark on all Western music since.
“Art is the recognition of the universal presence of God.” —Ernest Hello
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 04:34
^ Yes! I could never be sure...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 04:30
Originally posted by Shadowyzard Shadowyzard wrote:

For instance, if a metal band do a very similar song to Metallica's one big hit, s/he cannot/shouldn't easily get away with that... Come on... You must be aware that such a song exists!

Any thoughts/insights/arguments?


I would agree that I would expect a metal band to have heard this one big hit, but suppose a band of another genre created a song using a similar riff and claimed they had never listened to Metallica - how would you prove otherwise?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 04:29
Also, I realized that how I tried to explain my hesitation to call anything "original" was rather vague. I wanted to say that, one has to have comprehensive and all-encompassing knowledge on a field (which is something I lack in any major one), in order safely to assert that something is original and has no precedent within that particular field. Hope I'm clear now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shadowyzard Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 03:53
^ This notion can bring about multifaceted interpretations and arguments, for sure.

My opening argument was indeed the sort of plagiarism, but it doesn't come to mean the rest of the input should come likewisely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nick_h_nz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2021 at 03:22
A lot of reviews of Ulver’s album, Julius Caesar, made reference to Depeche Mode, and assumed that band must have influenced the sound of the album. In subsequent interviews. Garm has clarified that none of the band were familiar with any of the music of Depeche Mode. For a lot of people, that’s hard to believe - but it’s really not as impossible as people think.

I remember a long time ago that a band from my hometown came out with an album in the same year as Pearl Jam’s Vitalogy. In fact, it was released before Vitalogy. And one of the songs on it has pretty much the exact same repeated refrain as Last Exit. There’s no way either band heard the other’s song. Sometimes incredible coincidences just occur. People jump to the idea that something is derivative or plagiarised, and while that is probably the case eight or nine times out of ten, it is most certainly not always the case.

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