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Topic ClosedProg cd trades on the Forum?
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Sean Trane View Drop Down
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Points: 20585 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prog cd trades on the Forum?
    Posted: April 14 2007 at 07:38
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ one problem however is that some CDs may not be imported into certain countries. Usually the big CD shops don't care, so for example in Germany you can order a CD from the USA through Amazon.com/Caiman/etc. which isn't available in local German stores. If you then decide to offer the CD on Ebay.de you might get sued if the IFPI notices. 
 
I thought we were talking of setting up a thread with the list of what you choose to be getting rid of, and members just PMing you.
 
 
 
I haven't touched E-Bay or Amazon yet.
 
Not about to, either


I absolutely can't see any risk in that ... if people simply say "check out these CDs/DVDs I don't need anymore -  get in touch with me if you want them" then that would be perfectly fine IMO.

Of course they could also simply set up an Ebay auction and post the link ... it would certainly increase their profit.Wink
 
This is frequently done on Progressive Ears and on Rate Your Music
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Points: 21776 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2007 at 13:45
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ one problem however is that some CDs may not be imported into certain countries. Usually the big CD shops don't care, so for example in Germany you can order a CD from the USA through Amazon.com/Caiman/etc. which isn't available in local German stores. If you then decide to offer the CD on Ebay.de you might get sued if the IFPI notices. 
 
I thought we were talking of setting up a thread with the list of what you choose to be getting rid of, and members just PMing you.
 
 
 
I haven't touched E-Bay or Amazon yet.
 
Not about to, either


I absolutely can't see any risk in that ... if people simply say "check out these CDs/DVDs I don't need anymore -  get in touch with me if you want them" then that would be perfectly fine IMO.

Of course they could also simply set up an Ebay auction and post the link ... it would certainly increase their profit.Wink


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - April 12 2007 at 13:46
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Points: 1655 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2007 at 12:24
^^

im actually wanting to sell a few CDs of my own here because I think they would get more notice here than in an online auction


i pm'd Jody about it I wonder how he will feel
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Points: 20585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2007 at 07:40
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ one problem however is that some CDs may not be imported into certain countries. Usually the big CD shops don't care, so for example in Germany you can order a CD from the USA through Amazon.com/Caiman/etc. which isn't available in local German stores. If you then decide to offer the CD on Ebay.de you might get sued if the IFPI notices. 
 
I thought we were talking of setting up a thread with the list of what you choose to be getting rid of, and members just PMing you.
 
 
 
I haven't touched E-Bay or Amazon yet.
 
Not about to, either
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Points: 21776 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 11 2007 at 02:29
^ one problem however is that some CDs may not be imported into certain countries. Usually the big CD shops don't care, so for example in Germany you can order a CD from the USA through Amazon.com/Caiman/etc. which isn't available in local German stores. If you then decide to offer the CD on Ebay.de you might get sued if the IFPI notices. 
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Points: 20585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 10 2007 at 11:06
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Swapping CDs ... I can't see what should be illegal about that. As long as we're not talking about burned CDs but originals, the swapping is totally fine. I've never heard of any case against people who give away CDs for free (that's what it is - you give your CD to someone for no charge and receive another CD from that person for no charge) ... not here (Germany) and not in the U.S..
 
I agree with Mike. Used record shops exists and do not infrige the laws. Plus the fact that the site is Canadian makes the FBI's advice not relevant. .
 
Actually about three years back I had asked M@X and Maani the permission to start this, and I had gotten an OK back then. So I posted my list and some 40 Cds got redistributed (Martin Hdfsch responsible for almost half of them). It was selling, not even trading. But all Cds were legal.
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2007 at 20:20
Originally posted by tonal tonal wrote:

I think it's so funny that we pay for something legaly... therefore OWN it, but then we are not allowed to sell what we paid for!  I guess in a way it's sort of like you car, house, or land... you don't ever actually own it anyhow, right?
 
Tonal: I don't agree with most of this regulations, I'm just playing the role of the Devil's Advocate, placing us in the wrst possible scenario to avoid risks for Prog Archoives.
 
The problem is that if you buy a house or a car you own them and you can do whatever you want with them (Of course with the limits established by law to real state property and traffic).
 
If you buy a CD or a DVD, you own the plastic BUT NOT THE MUSIC, the property of the music remains in hands of the copyright holder.
 
You only buy a licence for domestic use of this music, READ THE FBI WARNING, you can't play it in public, share it, lend it, trade it (which in some cases is mentioned) play it on festivals, hospitals, churches, schools, charity, etc.
 
If you owned the music you could play it anywhere without any limit, so it's obvious it's not the case.
 
Now Mike, I don't believe if you sell or trade an album you're a distributor, but in Civil law you don't have the advantages the accused has in criminal trials, they sue you and YOU HAVE TO PROVE THAT YOU HAVE NOT VIOLATED THE COPYRIGHT LIMITS.
 
That's the power entities like RIAA have, in theory downloading is not a crime (You are using free and public media instruments), but uploading is (Because you're taking other person's property and giving it for free or for profit to a third part).
 
Despite this is clear, RIAA sues downloaders knowing that they can't afford the legal costs for a $ 500,000.00 trial, so probably innocent people has to settle with RIAA and accept to pay sums of money of US$ 12,500 as average.
 
I believe RIAA wanted to sue Microsoft for providing people with PC's capable of breaking the law (The precedent is in the Betamax case, Somy was sued by Disney studios among others for providing people with machines able to duplicate copyrighted material, the trial never really ended because both parts had enougyh money to make the trial last centuries and most USA citizens already had a VCR).
 
But they didn't sued Microsoft, because Mr. Gates has enough money and lawyers to destroy their claims and probably RIAA will end paying Microsoft money for harrassment, so RIAA went to the weaker link, the final user, the one that can't fight with them.
 
They have the power and the money, they don't have to win, they only need to sue you and judges must accept the cases even if they don't agree because everybody has the right to sue other persons.
 
Iván
 
 
            
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Points: 12 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2007 at 13:15
So, used cd stores, pawn shops, and garage sales are all illegal unless you buy a license??  So, if I want to have a yard sale I need to contact the RIAA and buy a license first... Well, god knows they are really poor and really need that money!  Sometimes I really just can't believe how our world has come to the way it is today!  Not that this issue really matters, but it's just reflective of all the other ridiculous things that are happening all around us!  Money is swiftly becoming, if not already, the number one component in destroying our rights and freedoms!!  I think it's so funny that we pay for something legaly... therefore OWN it, but then we are not allowed to sell what we paid for!  I guess in a way it's sort of like you car, house, or land... you don't ever actually own it anyhow, right?

Edited by tonal - April 09 2007 at 13:18
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 13:00
^^^ Face it Mike,. the problem even lawyers have is that the law can be interpreted in several different ways.
 
For some people distribution can be selling two or three items, for others there has to be a continuous act.
 
For example in Perú you can have 8 grams of pot for private use, it's not a crime, but if you have more than this amount, you're considered a distributor and you will go to jail, most pot smokers have more than 8 grams but the law is clear.
 
Yes E-Bay pays a fee to be allowed to advertise in their site the selling of copyrighted material (Probably apercentage of what they receive frompropaganda), I know that because here in Perú if you have a barber shop and play the radio, you have to pay to the APDAYC (Peruvian version of RIAA) copyright fees, I know about a person who refused to do that and was almost sued.
 
They charge you everything.
 
Face it, RIAA doesn't need to win a trial, they only need to sue you, send you 556 laewyers, 1'000,000 copies opf documents and you're done because to deal with that you have to hire a legal firm.
 
Legal firms in USA and Canada are very expensive, that's why they hold the pan by the habdle and leave you the hot part, they can afford a two years trial, you cant, they don't need to win in order to vanish you, just suing almost any person is deep sh!t.
 
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Points: 21776 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 12:47
^ ok, have it your way. I'm just very sure that I don't become a "DVD distributor" by selling my used DVD on Ebay ... not even in the USA. Check the US Ebay page for prohibited items: http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/items-ov.html

They don't mention CDs and DVDs at all, except for export/import regulations which indeed are an issue. But it's not like you have to pay an extra fee when selling an used CD which Ebay then hands over to the rights holders. Remember that Ebay is only a marketplace ... they don't sell anything themselves, the members do.

But I agree that if there's any risk involved then PA should not allow it.Smile
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 12:23
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ then what about the garage sales, or second hand CD stores ... so they're all illegal too?
 
One thing is that RIAA doesn't care about and another one is being legal.
 
The only persons allowed to sell CDs, DVDs or Video Games are the stores with licence.
 
Allowing a friend to copy a cassette from your albums is illegal in most of the world (Not in Germany according to the copy of the law you once sent me), of course RIAA can't do a thing about that, but it's illegal.
 
E-Bay pays a licence to sell used stuff, Prog Archive doesn't.
 
Distribution is the act of dispensing something, that's all, in the new FBI warning (The most recent) is clearly stated that you can't even play the DVD in hospitals, curches, public shows, etc and it also says that  lending or trading it is illegal.
 
They normally can't do anything, but if they want to close a place that tells people which albums are bad, so people don't buy them, they will surely sue you even if they loose.
 
Small sites as Prog Archives can't adfford a long legal process against RIAA, so if they sue you, even if they loose, they will place the site in deep trouble.
 
That's a risk I believe we shouldn't take.
 
Iván
 
BTW: Paradox, yes there is one lawyer, moi (I ask excuses for that) and usually work with the Peruvian version of Copyright Office called INDECOPI, most of the rules are identical, being that most countries have signed either the Berne Conventoion or are part of the WIPO that unifies legislation about Copyright.


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 08 2007 at 12:48
            
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Points: 21776 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 12:14
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

btw what is a 'refurbished' CD?


My mistake ... I picked up the word at Ebay.com, but of course it only applies to hardware, like for example CD players. The right word would have been "used".EmbarrassedWink
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 11:01
There have been similar suggestions before. PA cannot of course accept any responsibility if things go wrong, so beware!
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Points: 46843 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 10:53
Originally posted by Paradox Paradox wrote:

Is there any way of actually finding out, without having to read several books on music copyright laws?
 
"Is there a lawyer in the house?"


of course we do LOL Two actually that I know of..
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Points: 881 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 10:32
^ Using a CD cleaner on a broken (scratched) CD?

That's my best guess.
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Points: 12818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 10:28
btw what is a 'refurbished' CD?
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Points: 12818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 10:27
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Selling new or refurbished CDs or vinyls is hardly an "illegal activity" ... that's not what they meant by "distribution".


If it is, I better stop giving them for birthday and Christmas presents......Wink

Edited by Dick Heath - April 08 2007 at 10:27
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Points: 21776 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 07:24
Originally posted by Paradox Paradox wrote:

Is there any way of actually finding out, without having to read several books on music copyright laws?
 
"Is there a lawyer in the house?"


You know how the saying goes ... "two lawyers, three opinions". I'm inclined to follow Shakespeare's advice! Wink


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - April 08 2007 at 07:24
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Points: 38451 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 07:23
Here's an interesting article: http://https://tv.ku.edu/news/2005/11/17/cd-buy-back-market-growing/
And another: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/07/business/swap.php

According to US law it is not illegal -- that's why Lala.com (online Cd swapping can exist).  The doctrine of first sale allows people to re-sell and swap CDs or records as they see fit.  But there is an ethical dilemma in encouraging such practices: many people buying a CD rip it, then re-sell it, or swap it.  And the cycle (recycling) continues.  That's copyright infringement.

I think one can get into potential difficulty when swapping CDs across borders (certainly when selling).
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Points: 3089 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 08 2007 at 07:12
This is 99% sure, donation is free of any obligations. Still I'd wait for Ivan's confirmation.
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