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ZowieZiggy 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: April 19 2005 Location: Siem Reap Status: Offline Points: 311 |
 Topic: Non-Prog reviews on a Prog website?Posted: November 22 2008 at 04:46 |
I have never figured that out
 . Why not filtering Jazz/Fusion as well??? Is this a more prog-oriented genre than proto?
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ZowieZiggy
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: November 05 2008 at 20:43 |
My God, I never noticed that Deep Purple and the Who weren't there anymore. My whole world is shattered. Which list do I believe in ?????  |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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aapatsos
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 11 2005 Location: Manchester, UK Status: Offline Points: 9226 |
Posted: November 05 2008 at 16:51 |
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This issue has been discussed and my opinion has not changed since then.
As long as the album is included in the archives, I do rate an album not entirely based on its 'progresiveness', but to the level I enjoy it, and my perception of its overall value. It would be greatly 'unfair' to masterpieces like 'Powerslave' and '7th son' (examples) to be rated with less stars, because the term is prog-related and not prog. I can say the same for masterpieces from Deep Purple, Metallica, BOC, where my ethos does not let me rate them with less than 5 stars. After all, my background is non-prog, so my views will be different from other people...  |
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Queen By-Tor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 13 2006 Location: Xanadu Status: Offline Points: 16111 |
Posted: November 04 2008 at 22:39 |
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But let's all remember that the top 100 that appears on the front page
is filtered so that Proto and Related aren't visible. I'm surprised that's not keeping anyone happy.
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: November 04 2008 at 22:36 |
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I agree with the overabundance of proto-prog and prog related bands in the top 100. But we also know that some truly prog bands have put out "less" progressive albums that have been well received by their fans. Remember someone dissing Harmonium's 5e Saison, because of a seeming paucity of progitude ? Yet, there it sits in the top 20. Supertramp's Crime of the Century is also reviled by some as not quite real prog because of what they put out afterwards.
So to save the site all the headaches, it's basically "you're in here, you can be up there". Mind you, God save us all if Kill 'Em All did hit number one. The rate of cardiac arrests would certainly wipe out a good part of the purists at this site. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Alberto Muñoz
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: July 26 2006 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 3577 |
Posted: November 04 2008 at 13:41 |
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I personally agree that you have to rating an album about his quality and the way the musicians express their feelings in music forms.
I found excellent albums of bands that are consider "proto prog" or "prog related" and sometimes BETTER that the full fledged Prog bands.
I think that Prog world is the most subjetive ever, so i do not mind to put 5 stars in a prog related or proto prog album, but with a proper review that justifie the 5 stars. Edited by zafreth - November 04 2008 at 13:41 |
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progrules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 14 2007 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 958 |
Posted: November 04 2008 at 12:23 |
I think it's an interesting point you're making here, Scott. For the same reason I have a bit of a problem the way the site works where the Top 100 of all times is concerned. In this top 100 just the real prog categories should be represented but it's full of proto-prog and prog related albums. In the line-up of subgenres these two categories are in yellow instead of orange as if to say: they only partly belong on the site. But they are just as easily represented in the top lists and that shouldn't be the case in my opinion.
I would like to see just the real progalbums in those lists.
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A day without prog is a wasted day
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: November 03 2008 at 21:33 |
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I think the simple fact that Metallica quoted a 10th century French Catholic Bishop is enough to qualify it as a prog album
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21807 |
Posted: November 03 2008 at 13:58 |
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There simply isn't any way to combine two ratings into one without losing information. When people see a rating, they usually don't see the reasoning behind it ... so giving an album less stars just because it's not prog will usually do more harm than good IMO.
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NotAProghead
Special Collaborator
Errors & Omissions Team Joined: October 22 2005 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 8047 |
Posted: November 03 2008 at 10:06 |
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I think the problem is not only in prog-related bands. There are lots of PROG subgenres and not so many people appreciate all of them.
Thus even 4-star rating (Excellent addition to any prog music collection) will not work for everyone. No matter how good some reviewed album is, if you don't like the style (be it neo-prog, prog metal, avant/RIO or something else) it hardly can be an excellent addition to your collection. Edited by NotAProghead - November 03 2008 at 10:07 |
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Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Mandrakeroot
Forum Senior Member
Italian Prog Specialist Joined: March 01 2006 Location: San Foca, Friûl Status: Offline Points: 5851 |
Posted: November 03 2008 at 09:16 |
Yes, BOC are Heavy Prog. But this is the same problem of Deep Purple and Rainbow or Wishbone Ash. And for this reason these bands are evalutated from me as Prog bands in my reviews.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: November 03 2008 at 08:53 |
 Because this site includes so much stuff which (even by its own admission) isn't "prog," I'd rate it simply as MUSIC, but take care to explain the seeming discrepancy in my review.
(Thus any album could qualify for top marks -- I believe if we put them here, the rating "playing field" should be level for all listed artists. I have never liked the words which perforce accompany the ratings.)
Old issue -- it will be there until those exclusive words are dropped from this inclusive site. "Prog" and "progressive" are highly subjective, vague notions in any case, and not a very meaningful way to categorize music.  Edited by Peter - November 03 2008 at 08:54 |
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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debrewguy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 30 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 3596 |
Posted: November 02 2008 at 20:51 |
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I rate this rating thread a 3 on the prog side, but a 4 on the rock side.
Once they let me outside, I'll rate the inside. |
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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russellk
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 28 2005 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 782 |
Posted: November 02 2008 at 01:15 |
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Agreed - the review is far more important than the rating. Yes, I want people to read my reviews, not just glance at the rating. But I would still prefer to have all reviewers working off the same rules - but at present some won't rate a P-R album higher than three stars, no matter how good it is.
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 09 2004 Location: Front Range Status: Offline Points: 7028 |
Posted: November 02 2008 at 00:44 |
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Interesting points. But also I think the most important aspect is that as we do have a site that has ratings and reviews the last thing you would want people doing is rating albums based on what other people think. Also IMHO to rate/review an album less than what you would honestly want to rate it just because it is tagged as " prog related" is like filling in a health insurance questionaire knowing you smoke 10 cigarettes a day, but you say only a couple of smokes on the form. Personally I think ratings and more importantly reviews built up over a period of time and volume give a fair reflection overall on an albums credentials.
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...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46843 |
Posted: November 02 2008 at 00:02 |
I don't think it is necessary at all to have different definitions...as has been said several times here.. what matters is the review not the rating...5 stars.. or 4 stars.. or 1 star are not going to tell you if an album is the best prog album you have ever heard... the biggest piece of sh*t like Scenes of a Memory was to me I still rated very highly for the SITE .. it is the review that counts.. . and to use use me as an example.. even though I gave SFaM 5 stars at first.. then 4 stars after some thought.. my review stated quite clearly what I thought personally of that album. However we are in business of seeing the big picture. telling those ABOUT the album and helping them decide if the album is for them based on THEIR tastes.....not trying to convince those who really don't give a sh*t whether we like an album or not that they should get it because we like it. The ratings are pointless.. and a waste of time to screw with. As Raff noted.. let her and other give those albums five stars.. if some numbnut goes out and gets Heaven and Hell thinking it is a essential album of prog without reading the reivew.. in which she states that the album is a great one.. but not one in prog terms.. . then they deserve to eat the money they paid expecting a great prog album.. and will just be left with a great album that happens not to be prog.  . Read.. not rate...again... the first thing I do when Raff and I buy the site from M@X hahaha is eliminate the ratings for albums.. have people write album reviews.. not rate albums on non-existant and conditions that are not uniform for all.... thus meaningless. Just fodder for the top 100 list.. which would be the second thing to go....Edited by micky - November 02 2008 at 00:03 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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russellk
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 28 2005 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 782 |
Posted: November 01 2008 at 20:29 |
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I'm with Raff on this one. Prog-related albums already get rated down by people keen to display their anger at these bands being included, and there's a natural tendency for them to garner lower ratings anyway, given this is a prog-rock site. So why artificially lower them further by ascribing a maximum of four stars?
I know what the definitions says for five stars, and I know no prog-related album can fulfill the criteria. However, I think the definition ought to be different for P-R albums, so as not to preclude people from giving 5 stars if they wish. It drives me crazy to read a review which says: 'This is a four star album, but because this is a prog site I'm only giving it two stars.' Thus people will overlook the album. |
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 15745 |
Posted: November 01 2008 at 18:46 |
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I used to have this problem at the begining. With bands such as Deep Purple, Led Zep and all the others of the like.
I think you should review it with the point of view you want, Prog or Metal or just general music. But explain this on the review, Eg: Machine Head 5 stars of Hard Rock not Prog. |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65822 |
Posted: November 01 2008 at 18:36 |
this |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: November 01 2008 at 18:13 |
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We deliberately don't have rules or guidelines on this. Everyone should go with what they think is best. It's always a good one to discuss and debate though.
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Non-Prog reviews on a Prog website?
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King By-Tor wrote:
