Prog and Classical Music
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Music Lounge
Forum Description: General progressive music discussions
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12647
Printed Date: August 16 2025 at 04:51
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Prog and Classical Music
Posted By: hegelec
Subject: Prog and Classical Music
Date Posted: October 06 2005 at 11:33
|
I decided to start this thread after mulling over a recent post calling ELP "too classical." It got me to thinking . . . isn't the use of classical forms and techniques a founding principle of the Prog genre? Or - perhaps - is Prog more broad than that? So here is something to ponder . . . What do you think is the role of Western art music in Prog? (And what should it be?) Also, what genres other than "classical" should Prog draw from? Or does it need to draw from anything? Of course, I have my own opinions on this question, but I'll hold off until I survey the lay of the land. ------------- Cheers! |
Replies:
Posted By: yargh
Date Posted: October 06 2005 at 11:37
| I think far too much of progressive rock is influenced by jazz and 20th century avant-garde music for western classical music to be considered a bedrock of the genre. It is certainly important for symph-prog, but not necessarily for other areas. |
Posted By: hegelec
Date Posted: October 06 2005 at 11:43
|
I look to bands like Gentle Giant drawing on traditional polyphonic textures. Yes drawing on sonata form for "Close to the Edge" (actually remind me, there is a fantastic essay on the web that analyses CTTE in terms of its classical significance for those with even modest theory background). And, of course, ELP used classically-influenced forms for many of its own compositions. I would even classify some of Peter Hammill's songs as lieder. These are some of Prog's biggest names; so isn't symph-prog Prog's most dominant sub-genre? ------------- Cheers! |
Posted By: hegelec
Date Posted: October 06 2005 at 11:45
|
Also, much 20th Century avant-guard is what I would classify as Western Art Music ------------- Cheers! |
Posted By: yargh
Date Posted: October 06 2005 at 12:01
| If you're defining "western art music" (a term that I hate, since there's nothing inherently more "artful" about it than any other genre of music) so broadly as any music performed on classical instruments, by players formally trained to do so, then I guess lots of prog is influenced by it. |
Posted By: Eetu Pellonpaa
Date Posted: October 06 2005 at 13:22
I remember that I suddenly noted a similarity between Richard Wagner's "Tannhaüser" Ouverture and "The Revealing Science of God" by YES, as I listened them when I was younger! It was a nice, waking and thought provocing experinece, when you started to notice bigger forms in musical pieces, how they are arranged, and melodies done with alterations etc. 
|
Posted By: hegelec
Date Posted: October 06 2005 at 14:44
|
I never knew that about TRSOG, but I will look for it now! ------------- Cheers! |
Eetu Pellonpää wrote:Posted By: hegelec
Date Posted: October 06 2005 at 14:48
|
I supposed you meant "avant-guard" in the sense of Webern and Krenick, but I see that you probably meant something broader than that. And I also appreciate what you mean with regards to "Western art music", but I disagree insomuch as some music is played purely for dancing/recreation and not for "serious" listening. I should reclassify it as "high art music" specifically - not meaning, of course, to be elitest. (though I see I am dangerously close) ------------- Cheers! |
Posted By: hegelec
Date Posted: October 06 2005 at 14:50
|
BTW, here is that awesome link to the Close to the Edge analysis: http://yesworld.com/ctte_covach/Close_to_the_Edge.html - http://yesworld.com/ctte_covach/Close_to_the_Edge.html ------------- Cheers! |
Posted By: hegelec
Date Posted: October 06 2005 at 16:19
|
Okay then. Here's another question: Does "prog" music merely have to evoke the Western tradition, or must it provoke it (i.e. engage it in a meaningful way) ? ------------- Cheers! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 08 2006 at 23:59
nice rediect ... hmm... let me take a stab... I think the classical forms and techniques are a foundation of prog... because more so than any characteristic even complexity which does not hold for all prog... the base characteristic of prog is a reliance on a firm structure. With few exceptions, aimless jams have not been a hallmark of prog. Of course prog exploded past that to include Indian, folk, Flamenco etc. influences. It's obvious that Western Art music could and should have a huge role in prog.. they were products of their enviroment in a way.. prog shouldn't be restricted to merely classical...and it isn't... we have folk, jazz, Indian, all kinds of stuff to draw from. They only thing prog had to do.... was expand the boundries of rock.. using whatever tools and influences the musicians could find... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 09 2006 at 00:04
hmmm... easy enough I guess.. either and both... prog really really is rock without borders or rules... the only restriction is the musicians creative limits... you can't pin prog down on what you can or can't do or what you should or shouldn't do.... there is WAY too much variety in prog to have any kind of axioms for that kind of thing. Not sure if I answered your question but that's how I see the question... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: July 09 2006 at 01:19
|
It seems to me that many of the early bands were trying to infuse rock with a classical sensibility. That was very evident on "Days of Future Passed," and even "Sgt. Pepper's." Yes, Genesis, and ELP ran with this idea. What seems to have happend was that this opened a very big door. Why just classical, why not jazz, world, folk, the sky's the limit.
The role of western art (or any art), is what the composer wants it to be. The beauty about prog is that it can draw from anything. It also doesn't have to. It calso can evoke the western tradition, but I like it when it is provoked. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Ghandi 2
Date Posted: July 09 2006 at 02:01
|
I think the guy was saying that ELP merely arranges an existing song far too often, and I have to agree with him. It's kind of sad when two of the best songs on an album (Toccata and Jerusalem) are songs that the group did not even write. ------------- "Never forget that the human race with technology is like an alcoholic with a barrel of wine." Sleepytime Gorilla Museum: Because in their hearts, everyone secretly loves the Unabomber. |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 09 2006 at 03:23
Its only your opinion that Jerusalem and Toccata are the best songs on the album.Then you draw a conclusion from your own opinion! ELP most liked peices happen to be self penned:
Take A Pebble
Lucky Man
Tarkus
Trilogy
The Endless Enigma (pts 1 and 2)
From The Beginning
Karn Evil 9
Pirates
Thats a fair amount of original music! Admittedly you may not like it and thats your perogative of course.I'm just saying that ELP's most popular stuff is generally original music.
|
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 09 2006 at 07:49
agreed plus Ghandi... what really makes Toccata...Toccata.... the originanal part that Palmer did contribute...which were those pre-electronic..electronic drums hahah. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Starette
Date Posted: July 09 2006 at 22:57
|
One of the main reasons why i love prog is because I love classical...and i love rock. Put them together? you have PROG. ------------- 50 tonne angel falls to the earth... |