What was the first Prog Album?
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Topic: What was the first Prog Album?
Posted By: akajazzman
Subject: What was the first Prog Album?
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 14:00
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OK, I'm sure this question has been beat to death around here before, but I don't come here often so please don't beat me up about that. Also, please don't beat me up over what a stupid question you might think it is, I actually think its an interesting question.
The question is, what was the first Prog Rock album? I mean "Prog" in the King Crimson, Yes, ELP, Genesis sense of the term. Not pysch, or proto-prog,space rock, or pre-prog.
I have a friend that is nuts over King Crimson. He thinks they are ground zero for everything and the greatest thing ever. I actually love KC a lot too (have almost all their albums/CDs). As a kick I'd like to prove him wrong that In the Court of the Crimson King wasn't the first Prog Rock album. But I can't seem to find another album that came earlier.
Yes, there were earlier albums like Soft Machine's I and II, or Pink Floyd's first couple of albums, or even the first Caravan album, or early Tull. But they don't count for this discussion, they're realy "proto-Prog" or experimental, or art, or psych. Moody Blues and Procol Harum also don't count for this discussion.
I'm talking about that "you know it when you hear it" Gentle Giant, National Heath, Kahn, U.K., PFM, VDGG style Prog that is more than just psych, arty or jazzy. The sort of stuff you hear on KC's first album. Composed Rock, different sections or even songs strung together, played with virtuosity, with some long instrumental passages and long trade-offs and some improv breaks. Prog Rock!
Please give me an example of this type of album that came before KC's "In the Court of the Crimson King"
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Replies:
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 14:04
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In The Court of the Crimosn King. /thread ------------- 
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 14:07
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Ars Longa Vita Brevis - The Nice ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 14:10
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Okay, to be a little more constructive (although I do believe ITCotCKis the first) The Crazy World of Arthur Brown came out in 1968, and is pretty proggy in my opinion, although I suppose it could be dismissed as mere psych. Frank Zappa's Freak Out! is from 1966. The second half of that might qualify. I'll let you know if I think of others. -------------
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 14:11
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Hi and welcome to the forum. If you look through previous threads, you will realise that this is the sort of question that gets people tied up in knots, endlessly debating what is prog and not prog. For example, you want to discount proto prog bands, but many of us on the site would regard such bands as being genuinely prog. It's the sort of subject where you will never really get a definitive answer  It's actually, though, a fair question. Most people regard ITCOTCK as being the archetypal first "proper" prog LP, in the sense that most people understand prog. However, others, and I include myself here, would point to Procol Harum's first three, for example, or The Moody Blues Days of Future Passed and the subsequent four albums. The Who's Tommy is a glorious example of concept album meeting sixties rock. I would regard it as pure prog, although others, probably including Townsend, would argue. In conclusion, how long is a piece of string? How large is the universe? Cleverer people than me have to answer these and the question you pose  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org |
Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 14:15
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Dutch Masters by Focus. Love the fast version of Hocus Pocus.
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Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 14:16
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I know you sort of dismissed Procol Harum, but I think that their epic In Held Twas In I could be considered the first prog epic in the modern sense, in that it was through composed and structural throughout unlike some of the jazz and free-form "epics" that had been released before. I don't think the rest of that album is all that proggy, but that song is huge in the development of prog and you could make an argument for it being the first appearance of "prog" in the modern sense. If you want a full LP, though, I think it has to be ITCOTCK. Sorry.  ------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: Anthony H.
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 14:17
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In the Court of the Crimson King. I don't think very many people would dispute that. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 14:21
Just wait, Anthony, just wait....  ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org |
Anthony H. wrote:Posted By: Vibrationbaby
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 14:26
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I really didn't get into Crimson until about '78. Was more interested in European bands like Guru Guru, Brainticket & Nue!.
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Posted By: apps79
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 16:17
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What about EAST OF EDEN's ''Mercator projected''?Very experimental album to my ears,pure progressive rock which blends elements from folk,jazz rock,psychedelia,blues and classic music...but is there anyone who knows the exact date the album was released....I think ITCOTCK was released in October 69'. ------------- When the power of love overcomes the love of power,the world will know peace... listen to www.justincaseradio.com , the first ever Greek Progressive Rock radio |
Posted By: cannon
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 16:22
I would have to agree.
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Posted By: cannon
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 16:23
I would have to agree.
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 16:38
You agree so much.,..you agreed twice!
 ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 16:39
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Wow, I step away from my desk and a few hours later this fantastic discussion.
Everyone, thanks so much, some thoughtful feedback. I don't have "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" and will want to check that out; same with East of Eden.
Lazland, thanks for your post. I do love all the pre-KC bands too. I may discount their pre-1969/70 albums for this discussion, but I'll enjoy early Soft Machine, Procol, Moody's, Floyd, A. Brown, etc any day.
Can't wait to see what others say. I too am of the opinion that ground zero for what I'm talking about is ITCOTCK, but I seriously want to find something "just" as modern Prog sounding so I can shut my friend up. He's driving me nuts on this. Its like because In the Court of the Crimson King is probably "the first", he ranks them above all others that came after. Obviously they deserve kudos for it, but it shouldn't be that "oh Genesis we're great, BUT THEY WEREN"T THE FIRST". Even when he doesn't say it, I know thats what he's thinking.
I just want a snappy answer to say something like "actually, "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" I believe to be the first! " ;-)
Don't get me wrong, he's one of my best friends, this is all in good fun.
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Posted By: Kojak
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 16:50
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Why don't you just punch him? That'd shut him up. Nah, just messing with ya. Ars Longa Vita Brevis is not a bad album to check out anyway. But, I'm thinking ITCOTCK...... |
Posted By: aprusso
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 16:53
| THE BEACH BOYS - Pet Sounds (early 1966) |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 17:25
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Hi,
The Beatles - Sgt Pepper's
The Beach Boys - Pet Sounds
Frank Zappa - Freak Out
Bob Dylan - Blonde on Blonde
The rest is not as innovative as most seem to think. These broke major grounds in the music business, where as a lot of the other stuff listed here is ... all talk, by comparison. And KC's first is not a "prog" album ... it's a band in search of a chord/song, albeit it one that was very well rehearsed and defined, which was getting kinda ... lost in the name of rock'n'roll, or some other idiotic concept! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 17:28
With this group here ... I think you are better off asking which came first, the chicken or the egg, because the only answers you are going to have are going to be favorites and not historical. Naming KC the first is akin to saying that ... you have never heard music prior to the day that you heard that album ... and even then, you still not listening to "music" ... and saddest thing here ... even Robert wouldn't be amused. He has said many times that it isn't "progressive" or "prog" ... it's just music done by a few people together ... and we still tell him where to stuff it!
We can't even do him some credit and remove it from the top ten! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 17:42
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Bob Dylan's Highway 61 Revisited
Hey! It was progressive at the time! ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 17:43
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Elvis Presley - Elvis Presley (1956)
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Posted By: cannon
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 17:57
I sometimes take things a little too far.
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Posted By: dtd350
Date Posted: July 23 2010 at 17:57
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I haven't been around these forums enough to know but I will say this is a pretty interesting discussion and I am interested to see if someone finds something that is earlier. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/dtd350 |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 02:30
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Carl Orff - Carmina Burana ------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 02:40
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ITCOTKC is the correct answer.But there are important strands that lead to this.Ars Long Vita Brevis,Days Of Future Passed,Sgt Peppers and Procal's debut are all massively important of course. |
Posted By: scatterplot1
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 02:58
| I'd say drug induced late 60's psychedelic stuph like Traffic "Dear Mr. Fantasy" or Iron Butterfly "InnaGadaDaVida" and "Ball". Some of the songs on those albums certainly met the criteria for prog. Then there was Byrds "Eight Miles High" and "The Notorious Byrd Brothers". Then there were the long Doors tunes from "Strange Days", etc.... |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 03:01
On this basis Interstellar overdirve - 1966 ------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: friso
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 04:45
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THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Check it out! |
Posted By: trackstoni
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 05:54
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In My Humble Opinion About Progressive Rock Music ! As A 57 Years old Prog Fan , There Was No Progressive Music Before 1970 , The Psychadelic Mania , Progressive Blues Rock , Jazz Fusion , and Symphonic Prog Rock Start to Be Recognized ( World Wide ) in 1971 . 2 Years After Woodstock , , in 1971 , Things Start To Happen , Competition Between Bands , Solo Artists , Label Companies , Radio Stations , NewsPapers & Magazines ( I Can't Really Count Hundreds of Them ) Start To Believe That A New Impact is Gonna Happen In the Music Business ! The Start Was From Europe ! England , France , Germany , Italy , Holland , Belgium , Greece , Ireland , Spain , Austria , & Scandinavia ( as a Pilot , I Was Witnessing Things Happening ) Progressive Rock Music Wasn't Tolerated in America , as a Continent , With Some Exceptions ! The Beatles , The Doors , Elvis , Canned Heat , G,S,N,& Y , Traffic , Hendrix , Ten Years After & Cactus , Gave in their compositions at that time a new Blend to the Primal Category of Music , Classical , Rock , Blues & Jazz , and for sure Pop Music ! Who Can Say That the 22 minutes of Get Ready's Rare Earth is Not Progressive Music ! I Believe no One , But Things Start to Happen Really in 1971 , the Competition between Bands & Label Companies was Really At Very High Levels ( i use to have a music magazine based in Lebanon , but distributed in the Middle East ) But Yes , Maybe The Floyd's , The Crimson's , Yes , Caravan , The Softs & Genesis got the Chance to be Listed on the Wall of Fame as the Ancestors , and Yes , They're Damn Good , but there is more than a thousands of bands & artists , that contributed one way or another in the Making of 5 Generations of Proggers around the World ! ------------- Tracking Tracks of Rock |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 05:59
 ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org |
Posted By: paganinio
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 06:08
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http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=1938 - Days of Future Passed by The Moody Blues (released in November 1967) should be the first prog rock album, as well as the first symphonic prog album. The discussion of "What is the first progressive album" should end when you listen to Days of Future Passed. -- quote from one of the http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=15615 - review s. ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 06:10
oh that one is easy haha ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Jörgemeister
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 09:20
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TADAAAAAAAAAAAAA  Released sept 26th, 1969, just about 20 days earlier than the schizoid man  ------------- |
Posted By: GentleGiant
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 12:04
 ------------- BeGiantForADay "This British band is just the cup of tea for aficionados who demand virtuosity,progress and originality in their mix." http://rateyourmusic.com/~GentleG |
Posted By: trackstoni
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 12:07
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I Believe this Discussion is not gonna end the way it must be , so keep on progging your way !!! ------------- Tracking Tracks of Rock |
Posted By: flaxton
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 12:23
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how about IN SEARCH OF THE LOST CHORD by THE MOODY BLUES. this was 1968. ------------- flaxton |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 12:29
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I don't know which was the first, and it depends what one means by Prog, but I just want to mention that I consider David Axelrod's 1968 album, Song of Innocence, to be a kind of Prog (as PA music goes), and I love it. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 12:47
------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 12:48
I tried to suggest Electric Prunes for inclusion and they were rejected. Where's the border between Psychedelia and Prog? ------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 12:55
And I supported the Electric Prunes for addition. The border is subjective, and I don't think there is a clear border. Not everyone supported Axelrod, and it took some pushing/ time and quite a lot of effort to make the case/ decide category, but I'm grateful to the guys in Crossover for taking him on (not just because he's one of my favourite artists). ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 13:06
Yes, I remember your support. Having suggested a number of artists I have found that additions in prog-metal are easier than in other subgenres...however I don't want to start a polemic. What I mean is that if Psychedelia is prog, the first prog album could be The Piper at the gates of Dawn. If not, Moody Blues are a good compromise. ItCock is surely the first in its subgenre, the most distant from the late 60s pop-rock or blues revival. In a previous reply I have mentioned Carl Orff. I was partially joking, but I think that Carmina Burana fits well in some of the definitions of prog. ------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 13:27
I wouldn't say that psychedelia is prog, but a lot of it can be considered prog. I don't even like the term to describe the disparate music in PA -- as I think of "prog umbrella music", but I digress. You make good albums points. I DO consider The Piper at the Gates of Dawn to be a kind of Prog (as in progressive rock), though, others don't think of it as true Prog. To some, a certain symphonic sound typifies Prog. I don't think of In the Court... as the first or, even really the first of its kind, though it may have progressed farther from late 60's pop and blues revival music. Procul Harem has early music that I consider to be prog. Anyway, sorry, I'm not adding anything nutritious to your points. Carmina Burana, or at least "O Fortuna" was influential to Prog artists and has similarities. Of course it's not Prog in that it's not progressive rock. A part of the Prog movement, of course, was incorporating other genres (such as Academic Music and jazz) into a rock framework. Often they would actually lift music from composers rather than merely emulating or being influenced by the style. Incidentally, for me prog mostly equals music that is rock-based that blend genres, and progresses from typical rock conventions (or expands on the possibilities of what rock can be). What the first true prog album is really does depend on one's working prog definition. I like to think that we're going to discover much earlier rock-based, or rock-related music, that will comfortably sit alongside albums represented as Prog by PA's various category standards. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 13:30
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Good points. I was missing Procol Harum, ------------- Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 14:02
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You guys crack me up. Elvis! Dylan J I see both the humor and truth in that stuff. But I do appreciate seeing more serious answers. I’m going to buy some of these suggestions to see if I can argue that ITCOTKC isn’t the answer. Logan, you’re spot on with “What the first true prog album is really does depend on one's working prog definition.” I personally, have a broader view of Prog than my friend. The Stack of CDs that I keep in my “Progressive Rock Collection” is far more expansive than the strict paradigm I’m putting on it for the sake of this discussion. In it I keep early Soft Machine, Pipers, Procol, early Zappa, Supertramp, Kate Bush, Tortoise, Neu, Anathema, Traffic, Moody’s and many other bands that don’t fall within the strict parameters my friend puts on Prog. In fact, that leads to a separate argument I’ve had with him about the definition of Prog. For example, he vehemently denies that Pink Floyd was never “Prog” because they weren’t virtuosic enough. Which I think is pure crap. Still, within his definition of Prog Rock, ITCOTCK was the first. Although I don’t agree with that strict of a parameter on the label “Prog Rock”, labels aside, he does have a point that there is a style and sound to ITCOTCK that I’ve not heard in other albums prior to its release. Again, labels aside, I do hear a clean break or jump forward between ITCOTCK and prior releases. Again "you know it when you hear it" Gentle Giant, Yes, Genesis, ELP, King Crimson style rock that is post- psych, arty or jazzy. Composed Rock, different sections or even songs strung together, played with virtuosity, with some long instrumental passages and long trade-offs and some improv breaks. I need to find the closest album to “that” that came out before ITCOTCK. Thanks to those that gave me some great suggestions, I’ll check them out (and keep them coming). And I also appreciate others who agree with my friend that ITCOTCK is really the first of “that” style. All the other perspectives and jokes are interesting too. Thanks. |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 14:22
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Moody Blues-Days of Future Passed undeniably beat ITCOTCK to the punch. People only say it's not progressive because theres vocals throughout and it's not dark sounding. ------------- Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell? I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance. |
Posted By: Jörgemeister
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 14:59
Neither Gentle Giant , and yet no one denies its progness. i just probably get Moody Blues-Days of Future Passed and listen to it. ------------- |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 15:10
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What are you saying right now? If you meant something along the lines of "Same with Gentle Giant and no one denies its proginess"..... Gentle Giant is pretty dark sounding, and is so blatantly heavily progressive. ------------- Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell? I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance. |
Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 15:17
People say things aren't progressive because there are vocals?  ------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 15:17
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Gentle Giant can sound positively evil. Such a great track... ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 15:19
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himtroy, I'm playing Days of Future as I type. I too keep in my Prog collection. The use of symphony and suite certainly was ground breaking and progressive. Same with some of the compositions. But the songs are slow and beautiful, not with the intricate composed (and improvised) workouts of more modern Prog. There isn't the speed and virtuosity in drums, guitar, sax and keys that you find on ITCOTCK. Possibly my question shouldn't be so much whats the first Prog album, but is there anything that sounds somewhat similar to KC's first album that came before it?
For example Collaborators.asp?id=5 - maani says "ulmostst unarguably the first, most quintessential prog-rock album ever, Court virtually came out of nowhere, and almost single-handedly defined "prog-rock" at its infancy. Taking "metal" and "experimental" to their extremes, and making use of some of the first truly textured "atmospheres" (fuzz paranoia in Schizoid Man, dreamy surreality in Wind, etc.), Fripp & Co. put prog-rock on the map with this flawless, in-your-face album."
His point, that it "came out of nowhere" is a good one. I really am not trying to deny that there was progressive music prior to it, I'm just trying to find anything that had that sort of sound/style prior to it. Another way of looking at it is does ITCOTCK get too much credit for being such an out of the blue influential prog powerhouse?
For example, Tommy was often called the first Rock Opera/Concept album of its kind; and Townshend went out of his way to say how heavily he was influenced by Pretty Things' "SF Sorrow"
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 15:30
Vocals, depending on how they're used, can make music sound less "progressive". If the music is vocals-based (the vocals are dominant), and the music lends itself to a typical song structure, then it's less likely going to sound progressive. I often find when the vocals are being used as a musical instrument more than as a means to convey words, it sounds more progressive. The Beatles were mentioned, and I don't think of the Beatles as even Proto-Prog (though I won't deny the influence it had) because it's largely still song-based music to me. Aside from that, I must admit that there is music that I might have thought appropriate for PA were it not for the vocals (had it been instrumental I would have been more lenient). Instrumentals commonly are associated with Prog, and if it starts to sound too much like a "song" (say a singer/songwriter type work), that can really make it sound less progressive. I like choral vocals in progressive rock very music. The Moody Blues often does sound rather less progressive (in the sense of being Proggy) because I feel it's too song-based. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 15:36
Because there are consistently vocals throughout and no long instrumental passages? Yes actually, people on this site do imply such things. ------------- Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell? I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance. |
Posted By: Johnnytuba
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 15:49
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My first taste of prog was Rush Retrospective followed shortly after by 2112. After about 6 months I ended up getting their entire 70's catalog followed by Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures. Yes's fragile followed about a year later.
But if you want to count Tool in with this, then I have been listening to them since 94, and much longer than everything else.
------------- "The things that we're concealing, will never let us grow. Time will do its healing, you've got to let it go. |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 15:53
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^Wrong topic? ------------- Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell? I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance. |
Posted By: Johnnytuba
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 16:04
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Sorry fellow proggers, I posted in the wrong topic ------------- "The things that we're concealing, will never let us grow. Time will do its healing, you've got to let it go. |
Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 16:28
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This thread has been very valuable to me for a variety of reasons, but one is Pssros' recommendation of EAST OF EDEN's ''Mercator projected''. Now that I've heard some of that album, it clearly has something to offer/compete against ITCOTCK. This is cool stuff. BUT, did it come out before October 1969? I can't find that anywhere?
Bruce Eder at All Music Guide says " It's also one of the most daring debut albums of its period, less tightly focused than, say, /cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:fifixqe5ldse - King Crimson 's /cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=2:COURT|OF|THE|CRIMSON| - Court of the Crimson King but otherwise equally bold and maybe more challenging. The whole record is eerie — coming from a pop culture where most psychedelic rock tended toward the light and airy — the way the high-impact bass, drum, and guitar parts interact with the distinctly Oriental and Central/Eastern European classical influences. The title track is a surprise coming from any British psychedelic band of the period, opening with a pounding heavy metal beat pumped out on /cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:3pfexql5ldae - Steve York 's bass and /cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:jbfoxqq5ld0e - Dave Dufort 's drums, while /cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:fcfoxqq5ldje - Dave Arbus ' electric violin subs for what would normally be the rhythm guitar part and /cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:0ifexq8gldde - Geoff Nicholson 's guitar twists a blues riff around before setting a /cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:hnfexqr5ldte - Jimi Hendrix -like wave of tonal pyrotechnics ablaze for the finale. Though most of the rest isn't as hard rocking as that, it is still progressive rock with balls."
I may have found my answer, I just need a date.
Also, learned that Fripp (Wakeman, Emerson) were influenced some by watching a band called 1,2,3 (later the Clouds) at the Marquee Club...but my ears tell me, its still more proto-Prog.
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Posted By: reality
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 17:01
| Its Renaissance by Renaissance you noobs! Gee, brought me out of posting retirement for this one! |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 17:05
| The first Prog album was the first album ever released, which I don't know what is it, but I do know that it is Prog for being the first album. |
Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 17:18
| I'm showing that the first Renaissance was Dec 1969. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 17:20
It was a stone-age record when they still put the rock, literally, in rock and roll. Okay, at least there are certain archaeological records which are not really pertinent, but no LPs of which I am aware; however, some might surmise that certain stone age rock bands pressed records using wooly mammoth dung. It's a hypothesis, anyway, and not a good one. As for the first recording of music, the oldest one I'm aware of was one from 1860 (Claire de la Lune), unfortunately, it isn't Prog (Progressive Rock). ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 17:43
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Posted By: Hercules
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 18:28
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ITCOTCK may have been the album that popularised prog, but in no way was it the first true prog album. For me, that honour goes to one of Procul Harum's first two, with Shine on Brightly being my choice as the debut isn't quite progressive enough. It was released two full years before ITCOTCK. ------------- A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life. |
Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 20:16
People SERIOUSLY overlook this album, in my opinion. You can hear influences from it in 99% of West Coast bands, from that period, from Zappa, to the Monkees, to Jefferson Airplane, to the Grateful Dead.
The list goes on.
Brian Wilson - true genius.
------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 21:25
People seem determined to classify prog as a definitive style of music. ie Genesis, Yes, Jethro Tull, etc.
Let's not forget that the term progressive was used by music journalists to define an idea of anything that was'nt considered mainstream, but rocked, nonetheless. What REALLY cracks ME up is quotes like 'Genesis used to be prog but they are'nt now'. Possibly because when they formed, they was considered 'less-mainstream' than most of the other pop bands around. Based on that rationale, you can say that Stravinsky was more prog than Holstz, Holstz was more prog than Beethoven, Beethoven was more prog than Bach. ad infinitum.
Genesis, Yes, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, etc never labelled themselves as progressive bands....music journalists did, so most peoples perception of prog seems to be dependant on what a journalist from the 1960s thinks.
I think it's time to drop all this 'labelling' crap. Do we REALLY need someone to tell us what prog is or is'nt? At the end of the day, you either like it, or you do'nt, but any way you look at it, it's all music. You won't really notice a style and sound of King Crimson in any band other than King Crimson, prior to the release of INCOTCK. This is a fact of life.....you get innovators.....then you get imitators.
Which 'strict parameters' does your friend specifically mean?
 ps: Composed Rock, different sections or even songs strung together, played with virtuosity, with some long instrumental passages and long trade-offs and some improv breaks. Prog Rock!
So you DO mean the Moody Blues, then?
------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 22:31
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Rabid, by the way, I'm a bigger Beach Boys/Brian Wilson fan than I am any other artist other than Pink Floyd. I saw Wilson in concert twice last year. And even asked PA to include Smile as an entry into PA. If Smile had been released in 1967 like it should have, it would have been a progressive classic for sure! Pet Sounds was amazing as well, albiet not as far out as Smile, but just as great (or greater).
Rabid, on labeling I just don't find it as off putting as some, I mean this site is called "Progressive Archives" after all. And artists of course are going to hate being labeled, but I view it as their job to genre hop if they don't like the label.
StiIl actually am sorry I brought up my friends strict label of "Prog Rock", because I don't put the same parameters on "my" label of Prog Rock. What I'm more interested in is finding an album that had similar characteristics as ITCOKC. Lets face it ITCOKC was hugely influential. Its a classic. Regardless of its label, sooo many people on this site view it as a first of its kind.
So what is its kind? Genesis and Yes admit to being very influenced by KC after the KC album came out, and you can hear the influence in their music. I don't have the words to articulate what "that is" but I can hear it. As much as I dig the Moody Blues, I don't hear the fast Rock virtuosity that I hear on say "21 Century S. Man." This is in no way to cut at the Moody Blues, but to my ears they don't jam as a tight prog band the way Yes does on Fragile or the way ELP did or Genesis on Foxtrot or Lamb. King Crimson brought a new level of instrumental interplay to the game. Between McDonald, Fripp, Bruford, and Lake they were mixing it up big time (granted, most of their first album is rather slow/mid tempo) in a certain way that I haven't heard before. Nor do the Moody's have as long and winding compositions. Still, I agree, the Moody's somewhat influenced KC's sound.
Even the great Soft Machine, changed their style after the first King Crimson album, and the first cut on Soft Machine's Third album has a long jam that is clearly influenced by 21 C. S. Man.
I start feeling like "am I nuts about this point that KC clearly created some new standard, or drew a new line in the sand" But then I realize that I'm hardly alone, as so many others on this board hear the same thing I"m talking about.
Again, I go back to this East of Eden album that was mentioned, but after hours of searching I think the release date is impossible to find. I sort of suspect that it came after October 1969, the third song seems a tad too lyrically influenced by KC.
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Posted By: Ronnie Pilgrim
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 22:55
With all due respect, then what's the point of this site? The very concept you challenge is the basis for all of the discussions and reviews here. If we don't struggle with these classifications, we might as well be an anything-other-than-mainstream music site. Just take a look at the top 250 prog albums and there you have it. In The Court of the Crimson King, by the general consensus of the membership, is probably the first prog album. From what I can discern, it has the blend of symphonic rock, jazz rock, folk rock, and blues rock that seem to be recurring components of what is considered prog. But this is up for discussion, and that's why I love it here.
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Posted By: paganinio
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 22:56
It's probably just some field recordings of street sounds and train noises? -------------
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Posted By: paganinio
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 22:59
No. That's called PUNK. Punk wasn't considered mainstream, but rocked. -------------
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 23:36
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I'm sorry I have no idea of the precise release date of East Of Eden's Mercator Projected. However and in agreement with some other posters, depending on how much you strech your definition of "prog as in KC's ITCOTKC", I would argue that The Nice's "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" was the first prog-rock album in the sense we understand the term today. Even if admittedly it did not have anything comparable to "21st Century Schizoid Man" I think it had some relationship to "I Talk to the Wind", "Epitaph", "Moonchild" or "ITCOTKC" even if it was obviously much less guitar-rock-oriented (The Nice was a keyboard-oriented band while KC was more guitar oriented, which not necessarily but somehow puts The Nice in a more solid stand as "the genesis of prog", considering that prog would put keyboards on a much more prominent role than what they had been until then (apart from some orchestrations such as in the Moody Blues or The Beatles).
If "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" is not prog enough for you, and Mercator Projected turs out to be newer than ITCOTKC, then I'm afraid you have no escape...
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Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 23:46
But thats the paradox.........because KC got their own style together, and ITCOTCK was the first of its kind, they got labelled as progressive, in relation to other bands who were about at the same time, but not making the same sort of music. I don't think KC was any more progressive than the Moody Blues, I just think they sounded more like KC than the Moody Blues did. Lets not forget, too, that the Moody Blues started at a time when commercial success was more important than artistic integrity.
As far as I can see, the only new standard that KC created was the standard of sounding more like KC than anyone else. Any band that needs to change their style to deliberately sound like someone else can only be classified as imitators. KC were innovators......it's only natural that other bands were influenced by their style.
I've got an idea that 'that' is the sound of a Mellotron, new studio technology, and a radical producer.
Maybe ITCOTCK was the first album to demonstrate to record companies that you CAN maintain artistic integrity AND be commercially viable at the same time.
And Brian Wilson rocks !!
 ------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: July 24 2010 at 23:51
Punk sucked.
 A clear slap-in-the-face for any serious musician.------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 00:13
What I meant was: I can't see the point of anyone asking for a definitive explanation of what the first prog album was, when 20,000 people have their own idea of what prog actually means to THEM. Obviously, you'll get 20,000 conflicting replies. If we could only establish a standard, things would be less confusing.
I'm not a great fan of genre-hopping, personally......life's too short, and there's too much music to be listened to. But I guess life's like that.
 ------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: VanVanVan
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 00:27
Debatable.  ------------- "The meaning of life is to give life meaning."-Arjen Lucassen |
Posted By: akajazzman
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 00:28
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Gerinski says
"If "Ars Longa Vita Brevis" is not prog enough for you, and Mercator Projected turs out to be newer than ITCOTKC, then I'm afraid you have no escape..." LOL. You're probably right. But this whole discussion has given me ammo for my next go around with my friend. I think Nice do come rather close (he'll deny it it and call it "proto", but I can still try).
If the vocals in Nice were just ..."better" and if someone else in the band held a candle to Emerson... I guess what makes ITCOTKC such a compelling argument is that its pretty great, so its easier to stick a stake in the ground on it (although Moonchild gets boring for me).
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Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 00:31
What better place to debate than a forum?
 ------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 01:04
I disagree.
------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 01:20
I've got the feeling that the first uses of the term progressive refers to the artiste(s). Are you saying that you cant have progressive rock songs?
------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 01:31
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!
 Now ur talking !!!!
------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 01:50
And THAT'S what counts.
------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 02:00
| with all respect to the King, I would cite the following breakthrough albums; Thoughts of Emerlist Davjack, Absolutely Free, Smiley Smile, Stand Up, and Trespass |
Posted By: Anirml
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 07:18
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The Soft Machine's first self titled album is one of the first prog albums in my opinion. (from 1968) The last 3 songs of side one makes up an Epic Psychedelic Progressive Jazz/Fusion Symphonic masterpiece (the song "A Certain Kind" contains the symphonic stuff). If this is too long just skip to Climax culminating in "A Certain Kind" (the video below) ------------- 
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 09:06
No, I'm not saying that you can't have progressive rock songs. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 09:11
| Rolling Stones, Their Satanic Majesties Request (1967). |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 11:26
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(QUOTE)If you look through previous threads, you will realise that this is the sort of question that gets people tied up in knots, endlessly debating what is prog and not prog. For example, you want to discount proto prog bands, but many of us on the site would regard such bands as being genuinely prog. It's the sort of subject where you will never really get a definitive answer It's actually, though, a fair question. Most people regard ITCOTCK as being the archetypal first "proper" prog LP, in the sense that most people understand prog. However, others, and I include myself here, would point to Procol Harum's first three, for example, or The Moody Blues Days of Future Passed and the subsequent four albums. The Who's Tommy is a glorious example of concept album meeting sixties rock. I would regard it as pure prog, although others, probably including Townsend, would argue. In conclusion, how long is a piece of string? How large is the universe? Cleverer people than me have to answer these and the question you pose [QUOTE] Great answer. I would also add the Beatles' "Sargent Pepper" to this list.
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Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 11:42
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In other words, the first prog album can be anything that is related to prog between the end of 60's and the beginning of the 70's...Depending on what is your definition of prog and how much prog a record has to have to be consider the first prog album. So, its a question without a definitive answer. But i will go for a real progressive record that i think has been innovative : King Crimson In the Court of... ------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 11:50
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I can accept answers like Dave Brubeck-Time Out. But it's most certainly not the Beatles or King Crimson. Thats garbage answers (no offense to KC, as they're one of my favorites). We've provided way to many examples pre-ITCOTCK for people to keep saying thats the first one. ------------- Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell? I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance. |
Posted By: rdtprog
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 12:02
To me Dave Brubeck is not very much stuff related to prog or i have been wrong for 30 years... ------------- Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness. Emile M. Cioran |
Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 13:08
A jazz album exploring new ideas and odd time signatures is way more progressive than The Beatles, who for some reason keep getting mentioned as having potentially the first prog album and psych album, neither of which is even potentially true. ------------- Which of you to gain me, tell, will risk uncertain pains of hell? I will not forgive you if you will not take the chance. |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 16:35
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I suppose if we're talking a full album, Crimson takes it. But that first Procol album, if we toss the psychedelia and focus on the key songs and even more particularly on Repent Walpurgis, is pure prog. Same with what was Side 1 of The Crazy World of Arthur Brown. Days of Future Passed I don't count because even I could and did play the songs on my Hammond. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 17:49
Progressive, sure, but not Prog (i.e. Progressive Rock). Anyway, have a listen to this from Sun Ra's 1956 album, Super-Sonic Jazz: ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: akamaisondufromage
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 17:54
It would still be a Jazz Album though  No matter how many new ideas time sigs etc ------------- Help me I'm falling! |
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 18:15
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It seems like this whole thread has happend before ------------- http://blindpoetrecords.bandcamp.com/" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 18:21
I know it is, didn't mean to imply otherwise, and of course new ideas and interesting time signatures are not uncommon to jazz (jazz has been a very innovative genre and complex rhythms are not uncommon to it. The best percussionists in Prog, I feel, are informed by jazz). They were less common to rock before progressive rock (particularly varied time sigs/ rhythms). Jazz had a big effect on Prog, and Prog, of course, incorporated jazz elements. Prog commonly incorporated ideas from other genres (typically Academic Music and jazz) rather than developed really new ideas (sometimes they stole music -- a lot of Progressive Rock is not really as progressive, in a sense, as people make it out to be since they commonly looked back to other music for ideas/ inspiration, which is not to say that Prog did not progress the lexicon of rock. Hybridisation was very important to that. But Prog is commonly not that originative, and often not that innovative). Side-note: Of course Progressive Jazz existed as a genre before Progressive Rock, but that had to do with improvisation, experimentation, free-flowing music, dissonance.... blah, blah. Whereas Prog tends to be very structured, even if it has noodly bits -- Western Academic Music informed the structures significantly. Why I mention that Sun Ra piece, though, is because I think due to the, I think it's a Wurlitzer electric piano, it sounds quite similar to Jazz-Rock Fusion to me. ------------- https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXcp9fYc6K4IKuxIZkenfvukL_Y8VBqzK" rel="nofollow - Various music I am very into: a youtube playlist with two tracks per act |
Posted By: johnobvious
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 18:33
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The Waitresses - Wasn't Tomorrow Wonderful?. Surely there can be no argument ------------- Biggles was in rehab last Saturday |
Posted By: Progosopher
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 19:13
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Logan said: What the first true prog album is really does depend on one's working prog definition.  Personally, I think Prog goes back to Hildegard von Bingen's Ordo Vertutum, but that's just me.------------- The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty" |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 20:10
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Well due diligence here, are we to not consider The Shaggs? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shaggs - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shaggs
------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: EatThatPhonebook
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 20:15
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How about Joe Meek and The Men's "I Hear A New World"? It is the first experimental rock album ever. (1959) it is also the first concept album ever. ------------- 
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Posted By: Rabid
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 20:24
Ain't THAT the truth !!
 ------------- "...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..." |
Posted By: Soul Dreamer
Date Posted: July 25 2010 at 21:27
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The Doors - The Doors simply because of "The Crystal Ship", "Light My Fire" and "The End"
------------- To be the one who seeks so I may find .. (Metallica) |
Posted By: antonyus
Date Posted: July 26 2010 at 03:35
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Pink Floyd - The Wall |