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The T 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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 Posted: February 03 2011 at 11:53 |
 Henry Plainview wrote:
altaeria wrote:
When I see legendary 70s prog albums being reviewed as "totally overrated"
or "full of pretentious filler" and given 1 or 2 stars-- then I'm not sure that I get the
point of the site anymore. If multiple people are completely trashing legitimate
classic albums by Yes or King Crimson (for example), then why bother reading on?
I can get those types of opinions from PunkArchives or GrungeArchives. |
I'm sorry you feel that everybody on the site has to have the same opinions. |
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PlumAplomb
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 03 2011
Location: pa
Status: Offline
Points: 172
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 12:01 |
EnderEd wrote:
I think when people give a low rating to a time-defined classic, it's basically either because they think it's cool being contrarian, or probably don't realize that a rating something's quality is not the same thing as rating it for personal likability. I personally don't like growl, so Haken's "Aquarius" this year is not in my own top ten list. BUT, I would never say it isn't a four-star album. I've listened to it a few times, read the reviews, and understand completely why it deserves those accolades. I feel the same way about Univers Zero's "Clivages"-- GREAT album, but I don't like it. Maybe it's a generational thing? Equating value with subjectivism?
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thats like me saying (and this is true) i can care less about the godfather, sure it's not a bad movie but not my kind of movie, that being said i wouldnt let the fact that a hundred million people adore affect my review on it;. same with wizard of oz, a movie ive seen a million times but have never liked, i keep trying to like it i do but i have so many problems with it. i do like certain things about it though. and yes to the dude that said there should be more bands on here if this were 'progressive archives', there is no way i will ever consider Tori Amos 'crossover prog' or whatever you call it here:) i'm guessing though that those decisions were made a for a reason here. anyone know why?
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la la la and a bottle of plum!  and when it lands will my eyes be closed or open?
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 12:10 |
The Sleepwalker wrote:
An album might have had a significant impact on prog and might be considered to be a classic, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
Actually, ITCOTCK is a 2 star album.
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YES. SO TRUE. I mean, how freaking awful is Moonchild? Seriously.
Anyway, this is a silly opinion... I haven't even noticed this. "Classic" albums are still ungodly overrated. And if you're going to leave a site because a couple of people gave your favourite album a 2 star rating... then you a very silly.
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AllP0werToSlaves
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 29 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 249
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 12:17 |
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...nothing is as silly as debating personal opinion as empirical fact, especially about something as subjective as art. Use the site to learn about bands, find new bands, and discuss with members. I feel like people are getting so caught up in the details of everything on this site (genres, etc) that they forget to enjoy the music...
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 12:36 |
altaeria wrote:
Over the last couple years or so,
I've found myself referring to ProgArchives less and less.
As the site's library of bands becomes more and more extensive,
the spectrum of reviewers seems to become much more expansive.
Although that sounds like a good thing on the surface, it kinda defeats
the purpose of (what once was) a generally like-minded niche community.
For albums that I am familiar with, I don't feel like I relate to many of the
opinions posted about them these days... and so it has become more difficult
for me to utilize reviews of unfamiliar albums as dependable reference tools.
When I see legendary 70s prog albums being reviewed as "totally overrated"
or "full of pretentious filler" and given 1 or 2 stars-- then I'm not sure that I get the
point of the site anymore. If multiple people are completely trashing legitimate
classic albums by Yes or King Crimson (for example), then why bother reading on?
I can get those types of opinions from PunkArchives or GrungeArchives.
Oh well. (sigh)
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We are still a like minded community. We are not and never will be an identical minded community. I really get tired of the nit picking. Of course I don't care for bull crap comments like overrated and pretentious. The simple solution is just to ignore that kind of nonsense. This site remains a good source for me. I've yet to get a personal recommendation for an artist that I didn't like when I tried them. I don't get bent if changes are made that I don't agree with. I don't get bent if artists are added I don't care for or don't believe belong here. Why do you need to relate to the opinions anyway? They are just opinions.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: August 28 2009
Location: Vineland, N.J.
Status: Offline
Points: 3126
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 12:45 |
I appreciate this site because for example, members here understand the aspects of a band like THE KINKS having progressive elements within their writing. People here understand that what the BEACH BOYS were doing in 67' had little to do with surf music and all to do with Sgt. Peppers. Proto Prog I suppose? 10CC is appreciated here.
Pop sensitivity combined with progressive elements within those band's historical music has always been linked in with band's that produce a heavy outward non-creative cheap contrived rock style. People don't seem to catagorize them that way on P.A. The bands I've mentioned don't deserve to be linked into cheapness. I go from Beach Boys "Smile" and Todd Rundgren to Art Zoyd, Univers Zero, Alquimia, Neuronium, Popol Vuh and Biosphere. I can't grab that diversity of opinions on music from other prog sites. So it seems.
There are younger members on this site who can't get the gist of I.T.C.O.T.C.K. and I can most humbly relate. It is a precious gem that subsides in the past. It is a piece of history no doubt. But it grows tired like the rest of past efforts. It doesn't by any means remain timeless like a Holst piece. I agree that people are caught up on details too much and can't find the enjoyment and understanding of what a prog band has to offer. I for one observe many detailed aspects of bands like Camel and long to share conversation with others in that aspect. My curious nature with bands like Wishbone Ash and many others etc. I have learned so many new things that mark the history of Krautrock since I came here. I grew up with Cosmic Jokers and the rest when the music itself first touched base with the public and yet....there is always more to learn from the members here that may not be printed in a bio. In that special way the P.A. site is golden opportunity for me. People sometimes have negative points about the reviews. People that post the reviews practically bend over backwards to do research and I respect that.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5130
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 13:05 |
I think people should refrain from reviewing and rating albums from a style / subgenre they don't like as a principle.
I am mostly a symphonic / eclectic / jazz-fusion fan and as such I feel entitled to say that a symphonic album I find bad deserves 1 or 2 stars IMHO.
However for example I purchased Maudlin of the Well's Leaving Your Body Map and Godspeed You BE's Lift Your Skinny Fists because of their high appreciation and I do not like them, sorry I'm not really into Post Rock / Post Metal / Math.
But I am not going to review them and give them 1 or 2 stars, I simply refrain from reviewing or rating them, because I am aware that I do not like them not because they are bad albums but because the genre doesn't really appeal much to me. Maybe one day I will give them a few more spins and they will click, who knows.
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idlero
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 16 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 137
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 13:59 |
Gerinski wrote:
I think people should refrain from reviewing and rating albums from a style / subgenre they don't like as a principle.
I am mostly a symphonic / eclectic / jazz-fusion fan and as such I feel entitled to say that a symphonic album I find bad deserves 1 or 2 stars IMHO.
However for example I purchased Maudlin of the Well's Leaving Your Body Map and Godspeed You BE's Lift Your Skinny Fists because of their high appreciation and I do not like them, sorry I'm not really into Post Rock / Post Metal / Math.
But I am not going to review them and give them 1 or 2 stars, I simply refrain from reviewing or rating them, because I am aware that I do not like them not because they are bad albums but because the genre doesn't really appeal much to me. Maybe one day I will give them a few more spins and they will click, who knows. |
That's probably one of the reasons that we see so many Post Rock/Metal/Math in the top-because people who like the "straight:" prog don't bother to rate them, but people who like these genres give low rates to the more "traditional" genres because they consider them not enough "sophisticated" like the genres they love.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16469
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 14:13 |
altaeria wrote:
...
Over the last couple years or so,
I've found myself referring to ProgArchives less and less.
...
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Honestly, that would be your loss.
In general, this is not the most "intelectual site" or the most academic ... but it IS the only site that is more complete and less choosy about what can be listed, and in the end, they accept other people's opinions WAYYYYYY better than almost all the other Progressive sites out there, that in my book, are "trendy" and "finicky" and sometimes overly "academic" and ... not very good academic'y at that ... very poor grades from a lot of professors on that one -- because it is one of those ... only this makes it that ... and that's that!
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As the site's library of bands becomes more and more extensive,
the spectrum of reviewers seems to become much more expansive.
Although that sounds like a good thing on the surface, it kinda defeats
the purpose of (what once was) a generally like-minded niche community.
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I have thought something similar, and I would prefer that this group make a selection for reviewers and stick to it. The idea of everyone being able to do a review is fine, but in the end, some people are not reviewers, although it would be totally incorrect to say they do not have something to say ... but in the end, someone saying right below three really good reviews that ... "it's crap" ... kinda makes things not look very good, or at least that the editors and admins simply can not keep up with the whole thing. But yeah ... in my book that is bad.
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When I see legendary 70s prog albums being reviewed as "totally overrated"
or "full of pretentious filler" ....
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THAT IS NOT A REVIEW. THAT IS AN OPINION.
And should be removed from the review section. I have no issues with that opinion being in the forums. I do with it being in the review section. And this is where the folks in charge, are not able, or have the time, to sift through the information to make that call.
Basically, they should have ALL reviewers sign an agreement for the 3 or 4 things required on the review, and that personal opinions or downgrading comments do not necessarily a review make. But if one can get past their opinion and explain what they see, that's another story ... but then, the opinion is not necessary!
Edited by moshkito - February 03 2011 at 14:15
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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toroddfuglesteg
Forum Senior Member
Retired
Joined: March 04 2008
Location: Retirement Home
Status: Offline
Points: 3658
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 14:16 |
Gerinski wrote:
I think people should refrain from reviewing and rating albums from a style / subgenre they don't like as a principle.
I am mostly a symphonic / eclectic / jazz-fusion fan and as such I feel entitled to say that a symphonic album I find bad deserves 1 or 2 stars IMHO.
However for example I purchased Maudlin of the Well's Leaving Your Body Map and Godspeed You BE's Lift Your Skinny Fists because of their high appreciation and I do not like them, sorry I'm not really into Post Rock / Post Metal / Math.
But I am not going to review them and give them 1 or 2 stars, I simply refrain from reviewing or rating them, because I am aware that I do not like them not because they are bad albums but because the genre doesn't really appeal much to me. Maybe one day I will give them a few more spins and they will click, who knows. |
With all respect; I take the opposite view. Ratings in ProgArchives, accumulated together and so forth, is meant to reflect the views of the whole community. Not the few who are into this and this genre. But in any case; it is really only the bands who knows their albums well enough to rate it, if we are truthfully enough. Do we really need the five Yes members five stars reviews of their debut album........ and no other reviews of that album ? Is that a community ? I don't think so. No, please go freely out and write any reviews you desire of any bands and any genre. That is your right in ProgArchives. Feel free to use it......... but I cannot force you to use this right. But please review a Post Rock album. 
Edited by toroddfuglesteg - February 03 2011 at 14:19
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16469
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 14:37 |
toroddfuglesteg wrote:
With all respect; I take the opposite view.
Ratings in ProgArchives, accumulated together and so forth, is meant to reflect the views of the whole community. Not the few who are into this and this genre. But in any case; it is really only the bands who knows their albums well enough to rate it, if we are truthfully enough. Do we really need the five Yes members five stars reviews of their debut album........ and no other reviews of that album ? Is that a community ? I don't think so. ... |
And, in a way, there is only one concern ... that in due time, it is all a Top Ten, and Progressive will die ... because it became a popularity contest. Might as well rate Rush and someone else progressive, and dump the rest, because not enough folks listen to enough different things to even know, understand, or even have some respect, for other countries, other work and other views.
I agree that I would want the popular opinion, but I also think that there are many times when the popular view is counter productive, in both a good and bad way ... and that is a by-product of the situation, and not wrong, or right ... but the parties have to agree ... which in many countries they DON'T and fight to the death for it or against it. And sometimes, maybe it's best they don't have that choice, so you can have a reasonable sense of peace? ... I came from a Fascist country and father was a literatii that was also being chased around for his film reviews and "freedom poetry" ... and this subject is something I can talk about all day -- I prefer not to -- but it shows up on my writings in other subtle ways having to do with choice. Portugal was the bad case after the dictatorship went ... all of a sudden you had Christin Puddings fighting the Christian Socialists and the Christian Democrats and the Christian Souffles, and no one can agree on anything ... and the whole thing was/is so pathetic to the point of being ... just a bunch of people that have no ability, or desire, to work together to make something better ... their way is always better and the rest is stupid.
Leadership is a bitch ... you can't win ... you do something that is right today, and tomorrow it's wrong, or vice versa. But I believe in one thing that has no color, no ideas and no stupidity ... th elove and desire to improve things for everyone ... and if someone is not interested in that ... that is their problem. But they should NOT, be interfering with the others and disrupt the attempts at doing good work.
Parallel that you might like ... what do you think that Jesus of Nazareth fought for?
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 14:44 |
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I disagree with you. Opinion IS a part of a review...any review.
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PlumAplomb
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 03 2011
Location: pa
Status: Offline
Points: 172
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 15:20 |
Nathaniel607 wrote:
The Sleepwalker wrote:
An album might have had a significant impact on prog and might be considered to be a classic, but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
Actually, ITCOTCK is a 2 star album.
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YES. SO TRUE. I mean, how freaking awful is Moonchild? Seriously.
Anyway, this is a silly opinion... I haven't even noticed this. "Classic" albums are still ungodly overrated. And if you're going to leave a site because a couple of people gave your favourite album a 2 star rating... then you a very silly. |
aww, i love moonchild :) i think it's beautiful, i might get into it too much cos the whole cancer ruled by the moon thing, but the music stands alone spirituality aside:) but its nice that opinions are so variedh ere, like slarti said - like minded not identical'
Edited by PlumAplomb - February 03 2011 at 15:23
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la la la and a bottle of plum! and when it lands will my eyes be closed or open?
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Lizzy
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 15 2010
Location: Schnitzelland
Status: Offline
Points: 4675
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 15:34 |
I can't speak for others, but in my case when I registred here KC and Genesis among other classics, were some of my top favourite bands, but as I started to listen to more diveresed music, I realised that my ears were enjoying other things better than KC or Genesis. I also want everybody to share the same musical preference as me. 
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Property of Queen Productions... 
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The Sleepwalker
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 03 2009
Location: The Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 15141
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 15:52 |
Lizzy wrote:
I can't speak for others, but in my case when I registred here KC and Genesis among other classics, were some of my top favourite bands, but as I started to listen to more diveresed music, I realised that my ears were enjoying other things better than KC or Genesis.
I also want everybody to share the same musical preference as me.
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I will never enjoy Stormwatch.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 15:54 |
Certainly unsubstantiated opinion is different than a well-thought out review. But taste always plays a part.
I love classic symph and there are some great new symph bands (I love Moon Safari's Blomljud). But symph is rarely progressive in 2011. Part of the same tastes that attracted me to classic prog attract me to modern acts that are trying something new. And this site provides me with that as good or better than any other I've found. And the fact that I've listened to alot of music in my day means I'm going to have to do some sifting no matter what data source I use for info.
I've found albums from Khan's Space Shanty to Edge of Sanity's Crimson to Ash Ra Tempel's debut from this site, all personal favorites that are completely different in sound. At the same time, I don't like related classics like Can or Caravan, and most harsh vocals put me off. I review them all.
Between the weighted reviews based on collaborator status and shear numbers, I think things shake out ok in the end.
Again, I think the best way to get reasonable advise is find about five to ten regular reviewers that write well, and include some whose taste is like yours and some who differ. Read their reviews, maybe weight in the numbers a little, and I think you're going to have a reasonable idea what to expect. And there's almost always at least one clip on youtube or elsewhere to sample at least a song before you buy.
It works for me. And I buy alot of music. Probably 85% of it I discover here.
Edited by Negoba - February 03 2011 at 15:56
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Lizzy
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 15 2010
Location: Schnitzelland
Status: Offline
Points: 4675
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 16:22 |
The Sleepwalker wrote:
I will never enjoy Stormwatch. |
Omg I hate you! How can you do this to me? 
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Property of Queen Productions...
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The Sleepwalker
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 03 2009
Location: The Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 15141
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 16:24 |
omg no I didn't mean to hurt you I was just teasing you a bit I'm so sorry k 
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Lizzy
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 15 2010
Location: Schnitzelland
Status: Offline
Points: 4675
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 16:25 |
The Sleepwalker wrote:
omg no I didn't mean to hurt you I was just teasing you a bit I'm so sorry k |
You mean it?
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Property of Queen Productions...
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The Sleepwalker
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 03 2009
Location: The Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 15141
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Posted: February 03 2011 at 16:26 |
Of course I mean it. You know I do respect you as a person, right?
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