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Kati View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: And Then There Were Three: Genesis
    Posted: April 24 2015 at 02:43
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

^ Kati - I you !! You know Gilmour's intentions. He is my super choice of guitarist. Many emulate, yet barely come close to his 'magic' touch, let alone compositional skill and melody.
The closest I've come is Nick Barrett (Pendragon), and Frank Bornemann (Eloy)..........close, but no cigar.........
But in-keeping with this thread, ATTWT is one of the bewildering offerings from the dying 'Prog 70's' era. Given the line-up upheavals, and the actual time-line-frame, this mob produced a wonderfully Progressive album and I don't understand why so many folks dislike it ?? I am (or maybe 'was') obsessed with classic 70's Prog, but this album doesn't do the genre any dis-justice. At least we get a guitarists' solo career out of it, even an ex-vocalist - and, depending on your POV, there's also some Banks material, a fairly commercial Rutherford career, and a superstar Collins career. May not be to everyone's tastes, but admirable either way.
When I view these 1978 'giants' albums ...... Genesis is excellent, Yes is very good, and ELP just skimmed by ( I do like Love Beach).   Simply worship Van Der Graaf, but they're an entirely different kettle of fish.
It wasn't such a huge step between Wind And Wuthering and ATTWT.

 
Big smile Tom! I love you more!!!! mhwoaaahhxx!!!! Hug yes back to Genesis topic (four Genesis here, however within topic of Steve Hacket)
This is for you, Tom Ozric
This live vid at the start Gabriel reminds me of David Bowie talking and therafter Focus with papa pu pipa plupumta ... hihihi ...
Another big hug to you, Hug
Genesis - Supper's Ready (Live) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M58wE8GTGp4
xxxx
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2015 at 02:19
^ Kati - I you !! You know Gilmour's intentions. He is my super choice of guitarist. Many emulate, yet barely come close to his 'magic' touch, let alone compositional skill and melody.
The closest I've come is Nick Barrett (Pendragon), and Frank Bornemann (Eloy)..........close, but no cigar.........
But in-keeping with this thread, ATTWT is one of the bewildering offerings from the dying 'Prog 70's' era. Given the line-up upheavals, and the actual time-line-frame, this mob produced a wonderfully Progressive album and I don't understand why so many folks dislike it ?? I am (or maybe 'was') obsessed with classic 70's Prog, but this album doesn't do the genre any dis-justice. At least we get a guitarists' solo career out of it, even an ex-vocalist - and, depending on your POV, there's also some Banks material, a fairly commercial Rutherford career, and a superstar Collins career. May not be to everyone's tastes, but admirable either way.
When I view these 1978 'giants' albums ...... Genesis is excellent, Yes is very good, and ELP just skimmed by ( I do like Love Beach).   Simply worship Van Der Graaf, but they're an entirely different kettle of fish.
It wasn't such a huge step between Wind And Wuthering and ATTWT.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2015 at 01:29
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:


I  do not what to say here above to be honest. this seems fruitless. The Wall and Animals is Waters and wow pros and cons of hitchhiking plus amused to death, these, two of my overall best albums to date!


About Animals, it IS one of my favourite PF albums (No 2, or perhaps even tied at No 1 with Wish you Were Here)... however, even though the band members themselves have spoken about how Waters control over the band was tightening by then, I don't totally buy the idea that it was an album totally dominated by him... yet. Yeah, he is the only writer on almost all the song... but that's almost, and thee one song he shares credits is Dogs, which takes almost half the time of the album, and for me is the very best song on the album, and as far as I understand musically was mainly a Gilmour song (but as often happens with Pink Floyd, Waters gets a share of the writing credits on most songs because of the lyrics... so it is difficult to actually know in which songs he actually contributed to the music). As for The Wall... it's a great album in it's own merit, but it's still a step down from the previous albums for me, and indeed the best song in it for me is Comfortably Numb... once again, co-written with Gilmour (suposedly once again, the music being mainly by him). As for Waters solo albums, they do have some really nice songs, but it shows he needed some help to make them really great albums (except for Amused to Death, which is indeed his best solo album... but even that one has a few weaker songs... and in some guitar solos, I really wish Gilmour had been there to make them really special).

Dellinger, I understand why you said that, but aww I do not think the same, Roger Water was brilliant at writing lyrics and overall show and music production. Here is a fact, Endless River, the last and only vocal track is not as good in my opinion to the rest of the instrumental tracks. Also Amused to Death with Jeff Beck among others is indeed a brilliant album but that was not the only brilliant album, pls have a listen to this album (Eric Clapton n guitars here, never been a fan of his before this) the guitar tune kills me here awww HeartRoger Waters - 5:06AM (Every Strangers Eyes) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6_RnKjKLJ0 xxxxx


About The Endless River, I completely agree about the last song, indeed a shame they ended their career with a rather weak song. Still, I think the worst of the album was the one with the sax player... indeed it shows the best sax player for Floyd is Dick Parry. But, we already knew that most of the time Pink Floyd had trouble with lyrics without Waters (still, louder than words for me is a bad song not only because of it's lyrics, but the music itself is weaker than on the rest of the album). And indeed there are some wonderful guitar moments on Amused to Death and Pros and Cons (Every Strangers Eyes is indeed a wonderful song, and not only because of it's guitar playing)... but Gilmour is perhaps my favourite guitar player overall, so I would like the guitarplaying, and actually the melodies too, better on the Pink Floyd albums without Waters than on the Roger Waters solo albums.
Dillenger, true what you said about Gilmour, I believe this too, he played/plays the most memorable tunes. Many bands try to emulate his guitaring however some (inc. those who readily compare other bands sounding like Floyd)  tend to forget that Gilmour is not only lead breaks, he comes up with the most beautiful tunes plus when he does lead breaks after that big build up of crescendos, he equally manages to bring you gently down.
Big hug to you, HugApprove xxx


Edited by Kati - April 24 2015 at 01:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2015 at 01:11
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

9 pages to discuss/analyze ATTWT....?
Just curious, but has this much time ever been spent on discussing any of the early Genesis albums...
you know,,,, the good ones....?
 
Wink
 
They aren't controversial and sit perfectly well in the times they were recorded. ATTWT was 1978 and prog bands were deserting the sinking ship in their droves. Genesis at least forged ahead with something that carried some genuine weight at a time when most were just failing totally. It was only some 10 years later when Genesis made Invisible Touch that they more or less capitulated imo.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2015 at 01:05
Originally posted by Flight123 Flight123 wrote:

Of course, Hackett was effectively forced to quit Genesis due to Banks.  If you read 'Chapter and Verse', Collins was a supporter of Hackett in the band and was the first to discover he had quit.  If Hackett had stayed, I don't think 'Three' would have been radically different (apart from the title of course)...The affliction that hit all proggers at the end of the 70s caught up with Hackett with 'Cured' but he did rebound from that.
 
Indeed.A lot of old wave proggers realised that in the end their best bet was to stick with prog . Genesis never had to learn that lesson though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2015 at 13:03
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

9 pages to discuss/analyze ATTWT....?
Just curious, but has this much time ever been spent on discussing any of the early Genesis albums...
you know,,,, the good ones....?
 
Wink
I would have to concur - I haven't listened to any post 1977 Genesis for ten years or so...I have far more worthy music to listen to. The new Hackett is a winner - you heard it yet?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2015 at 11:22
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

9 pages to discuss/analyze ATTWT....?
Just curious, but has this much time ever been spent on discussing any of the early Genesis albums...
you know,,,, the good ones....?
 
Wink
 
The album's nearly forty years old, so it's one of the "early" ones, and it's a good one. Big smile
 
When you are as old as I am early is relative......and that ain't an early one.
And good is a relative term also.
 
Wink
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2015 at 09:53
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

9 pages to discuss/analyze ATTWT....?
Just curious, but has this much time ever been spent on discussing any of the early Genesis albums...
you know,,,, the good ones....?
 
Wink
 
The album's nearly forty years old, so it's one of the "early" ones, and it's a good one. Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2015 at 09:48
9 pages to discuss/analyze ATTWT....?
Just curious, but has this much time ever been spent on discussing any of the early Genesis albums...
you know,,,, the good ones....?
 
Wink
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2015 at 07:02
Originally posted by fudgenuts64 fudgenuts64 wrote:

Tony did use a mellotron on the album. It's just so buried in the mix on the track Many Too Many I've NEVER been able to hear it myself. He claims it is there though. It's used on his first solo album very sparingly as well so it is probably there and he did use it on the 1978 tour and early 1980s dates.
Indeed - Tony stated in an interview that he doubled the 'tron with a string-synth to make the sound 'fatter', but buggered if you can discern it. Also, I'd swear there's a faint 'tron in the background of Undertow - listen *very* carefully around the line 'And we're safe in each others embrace...' I'm sure it's some 'tron. I ran the thought by Planet Mellotron's Andy Thompson, and he agreed, though it may as well not be there.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 23 2015 at 06:01
Of course, Hackett was effectively forced to quit Genesis due to Banks.  If you read 'Chapter and Verse', Collins was a supporter of Hackett in the band and was the first to discover he had quit.  If Hackett had stayed, I don't think 'Three' would have been radically different (apart from the title of course)...The affliction that hit all proggers at the end of the 70s caught up with Hackett with 'Cured' but he did rebound from that.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2015 at 15:45
Everyday - is progressive, Please-don't touch is progressive - Defector is progressive - a lot of Hackett's work is in keeping with his prog-roots - I find this broad sweep of the Collins money-grabbing brush (I think he would understand the pun) disturbing !!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2015 at 14:17
Originally posted by Green Shield Stamp Green Shield Stamp wrote:

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:


everybody SHOULD get on the new Hackett CD - that is AWESOME, with some of the best guitar work I've heard in ages! To lose such a talent was the death knell of genesis and they sank like a stone from the sea of prog as soon as Hackett left, never to return unfortunately !


There is some truth in this. But I think there was a tailing off of quality rather than the plummet that you suggest. As discussed above And Then There Were Three is a very good album, much better than most of Hackett's solo albums. I agree that Wolflight is a great album - one of his best, but he has produced several patchy albums in the past. Duke is also a great album (the best post-Hackett album) and is arguably as good as Wind and Wuthering. I also think that Abacab is a very strong album (Dodo, Lurker, Me and Sarah Jane etc have strong prog credentials). The following albums see a gradual decline, but there are still standout moments on even these albums. Sure, post-Gabriel followed by post-Hackett Genesis marked a transition away from their classic 70s prog style. But the work they produced still has tremendous merit - which brings us back to the delights of And Then There Were Three.
 
I think Hackett would have actually been proud to have been involved in making tracks such as Keep It Dark and Abacab. What's avoided in discussing Hackett is that his symphonic prog credentials also took a dive post Acolyte. In fact everyone's did post about 1977. Hackett didn't keep such a broad sound anymore than Genesis or anyone  else did. I have to admit this whole Genesis died after Hackett nonsense is a bit of wind up to me. Collins . Banks and Rutherford were not lacking talent they just followed fashion like everyone else.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2015 at 12:54
Tony did use a mellotron on the album. It's just so buried in the mix on the track Many Too Many I've NEVER been able to hear it myself. He claims it is there though. It's used on his first solo album very sparingly as well so it is probably there and he did use it on the 1978 tour and early 1980s dates.

Edited by fudgenuts64 - April 21 2015 at 12:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2015 at 12:44
I saw Genesis in 1977 (at Earls Court) and Hackett was AWESOME!! - The floating ghostly guitar I heard on that night was probably never bettered by any I've seen since! Anyway, the facts are that those lovers of post Hackett genesis are entitled to their opinions but - lets face it you can't polish a turd! They wanted to make lots of money and of course they did - You can't make music (that out-n-out symphonic prog fans love) and make lots of money - the musical taste of mankind is far too shallow for technically brilliant, complex examples of musical genius to be appreciated by more than a small percentage of the intelligent cogniscenti!!! Sure I do like a bit of thrash metal when I want to appeal to the cave-man within - but I much prefer to let the long epics of drawn out symphonic prog - wash over me and drive the common-denominators of moron-music from my psyche!

Edited by M27Barney - April 21 2015 at 12:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2015 at 12:03
Originally posted by Flight123 Flight123 wrote:

'Then' is a rather dark album.  I went to see Genesis at Knebworth in 78 and if I recall, they hardly touched this album live apart from a stonking 'Motherlode' and 'The Lady Lies'.  Famously, the last Genesis album on which Banks used a Mellotron.


I think they also played Burning Rope and maybe Follow you follow me at Knebworth 78. I wasn't there but had a bootleg i the 80's. I was only 8 in 78...

I don't think Banks used a mellotron on ATTWT either. Can't be certain but I thought he deliberatey dumped the tron for that album, but used a synth to get the string sounds. It was part of their 'leaving the past behind' strategy.
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2015 at 10:33
I have a soft spot for ATTWT.
It's the first prog album I listened to, and the first I bought, and it got me hooked on prog back in early 1980. Once hooked I quickly discovered the back catalogue, and moved onto Yes, ELP etc, also discovering neo prog with Marillion, IQ and 12th Night.
 
I understand the opinions of those who think it marks the start of the shift into the 1980s pop band that Genesis became, and I often wonder what my opinion of it would be if I'd heard it knowing the back catalogue first.
 
However, I still like it and still play it (apart from FYFM, but then there's at least one song on every Genesis album I don't like much, and that includes the Gabriel classics).
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2015 at 09:34
It certainly seems to polarise opinion about the band and serves as (blank) ammo from the nay-Sayers of their irreversible transition from Prog to Pop (as if the latter were an airborne virus that wipes out kittens). I enjoy parts of the album for what they are: extremely memorable and accomplished slices of succinctly constructed rock music that could appeal to Rock, Pop and Prog fans irrespective of their own 'brand' loyalties. Given the demographic of PA it won't be lost on some of you that 'And Then There Were Three' is their accountant's favorite album. Of all the 1st Gen Prog heavyweights, it was Genesis who were most adept at slimming down, shedding bulk, learning to fight in the clinches and the value of left/right hooks to floor their opponents. Notwithstanding the foregoing, I suspect most folks who profess to loathe the album do so principally because they believe Phil Collins would have made the perfect punch bag at the gym.


Edited by ExittheLemming - April 21 2015 at 09:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2015 at 07:10
'Then' is a rather dark album.  I went to see Genesis at Knebworth in 78 and if I recall, they hardly touched this album live apart from a stonking 'Motherlode' and 'The Lady Lies'.  Famously, the last Genesis album on which Banks used a Mellotron.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2015 at 23:20
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:


I  do not what to say here above to be honest. this seems fruitless. The Wall and Animals is Waters and wow pros and cons of hitchhiking plus amused to death, these, two of my overall best albums to date!


About Animals, it IS one of my favourite PF albums (No 2, or perhaps even tied at No 1 with Wish you Were Here)... however, even though the band members themselves have spoken about how Waters control over the band was tightening by then, I don't totally buy the idea that it was an album totally dominated by him... yet. Yeah, he is the only writer on almost all the song... but that's almost, and thee one song he shares credits is Dogs, which takes almost half the time of the album, and for me is the very best song on the album, and as far as I understand musically was mainly a Gilmour song (but as often happens with Pink Floyd, Waters gets a share of the writing credits on most songs because of the lyrics... so it is difficult to actually know in which songs he actually contributed to the music). As for The Wall... it's a great album in it's own merit, but it's still a step down from the previous albums for me, and indeed the best song in it for me is Comfortably Numb... once again, co-written with Gilmour (suposedly once again, the music being mainly by him). As for Waters solo albums, they do have some really nice songs, but it shows he needed some help to make them really great albums (except for Amused to Death, which is indeed his best solo album... but even that one has a few weaker songs... and in some guitar solos, I really wish Gilmour had been there to make them really special).

Dellinger, I understand why you said that, but aww I do not think the same, Roger Water was brilliant at writing lyrics and overall show and music production. Here is a fact, Endless River, the last and only vocal track is not as good in my opinion to the rest of the instrumental tracks. Also Amused to Death with Jeff Beck among others is indeed a brilliant album but that was not the only brilliant album, pls have a listen to this album (Eric Clapton n guitars here, never been a fan of his before this) the guitar tune kills me here awww HeartRoger Waters - 5:06AM (Every Strangers Eyes) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6_RnKjKLJ0 xxxxx


About The Endless River, I completley agree about the last song, indeed a shame they ended their career with a rather weak song. Still, I think the worst of the album was the one with the sax player... indeed it shows the best sax player for Floyd is Dick Parry. But, we already knew that most of the time Pink Floyd had trouble with lyrics without Waters (still, louder than words for me is a bad song not only because of it's lyrics, but the music itself is weaker than on the rest of the album). And indeed there are some wonderful guitar moments on Amused to Death and Pros and Cons (Every Strangers Eyes is indeed a wonderful song, and not only because of it's guitar playing)... but Gilmour is perhaps my favourite guitar player overall, so I would like the guitarplaying, and actually the melodies too, better on the Pink Floyd albums without Waters than on the Roger Waters solo albums.
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