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Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 06 2023 at 05:49
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Has anybody mentioned Vangelis? 
As it happens, I've been listening to Vangelis all day today, and the only new direction I'd like to see him going in is a long-awaited move to the  Progressive Electronic section of PA instead of Prog Related. Smile
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Has anybody mentioned Vangelis? 
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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What about Battiato?
I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Somehow I'm surprised that nobody mentioned Yes, yet. To me they are emblematic of bands that changed direction after almost every album. Not always to artistic success, but I think they always tried to explore new territories with every album (except for the last ones). Much more than any other band of the big six and many others in prog land...
I was thinking that too. ....

Yes
 CttE (1972) - Symphonic Prog
90125 (1983) - Progressive Pop
Big Generator (1987) - Pop-Rock
Union (1991) - Prog

So Genesis and Yes had certainly "New Directions" in the '80s, and by the way, that is why I don't see them as good candidates for Prog Big Ones in the '80s - it can be added here, Genesis' Invisible Touch (1986) - Pop-Rock.

I don't really understand your Genesis comment. As for your opinion about Yes, I disagree. 90125 is not more prog than BG. If anything you have it backwards. Big Generator has holy lamb, I'm Running, Final Eyes and Shoot High Aim low on it. 90125 has some proggy stuff but it's not more prog than BG. In fact I would say BG is the more proggy of the two but maybe both are a kind of progressive pop-rock but with BG leaning more towards their classic prog sound.

The longevity of bands is of course an aspect that for most of them will imply some change of direction. Most of those bands will have some "periods". This thread is somehow an interesting counterweight for this "Bands whose albums sound the same" one.
But what I was mainly aiming at is that Yes changed direction with almost every album. Compare for exemple the 1970 to 1973 album runs of Yes and Genesis... Trespass to Selling England by the Pound are all evolving into the same direction (imo), whereas the Time and a Word to TFTO run is changing direction with every album (although this may be less the case between Fragile and CTTE). No need for genre labels to come to such a conclusion.
Of course - and fortunately for those bands and for me (since I'm not much fan of "more of the same") - when you change decades, the change of direction can be huge: Nursery Crime/Abacab, CTTE/90125....
(And, to me, the step between 90125 and Big Generator is a small one - one of the few small steps Yes made, they were more often big steps - not really a change of direction)

Most bands that do last some time, I guess, change direction every once in a while, but not from album to album; this often means running the risk of loosing your fans.
This is a very interesting topic, actually.

interesting with these different views
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

Yes....bands are often 'musically different' but what does that entail;...they still sound like themselves for the most part and are not jumping styles or genres imho.
KC is not doing country rock nor is Neil Young doing eclectic prog rock...so where does this 'different'
really lead us?
Stern Smile
Always enjoy your insightful observations dr wu. I gave several examples of bands jumping genres. Zappa - psychedelic, fusion, classical. Rundgren - pop, hip-hop. Bowie - folk, rock, dance. KC - mellow, heavy, math rock. They are different enough to not sound like themselves imho.

Thanks for the kind remark.
While I can certainly see the above mentioned bands adding different elements to their sound in those instances (and many bands do that regularly both in and out of prog rock)  I don't see them 'jumping styles'.
All of those are recognizable as being the same artist to me when I listen to those lps.
I suppose in the end, as always,  it's a matter of degree and subjectivity.
Smile
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:


Marillion

probably one of the few mainstream bands that released 4 very different albums off the bat (and not just going in some new pop direction because they want more girls at their concerts LOL)


Edited by richardh - February 03 2023 at 08:25
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:



I'd say Radiohead's artistic growth from entering the scene as an unexceptional (and frankly kind of boring) alt. rock band in the early 1990's up to the beginning of a new millenium is unmatched in modern mainstream music. And they never stopped experimenting.



good call Thumbs Up
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^Working overtime Paul!! Keep them coming. Smile

Yep! Having already listed Dead Can Dance, Jethro Tull, Mike Oldfield, Porcupine Tree, Rick Wakeman, Wishbone Ash & Neil Young, I only have one multi-genre artist left to mention:- Van Morrison - an artist I've always found impossible to pigeonhole, although, to be honest, Van the Man is getting a bit overweight these days to fit into any pigeonholes. Tongue

Astral Weeks (1968) - Folk Rock
Irish Heartbeat (with The Chieftains) (1988) - Celtic Rock
Too Long in Exile (1993) - Soul Jazz
Back on Top (1999) - Blues
Pay the Devil (2006) - Country
The Prophet Speaks (2018) - Jazz
Three Chords & the Truth (2019) - Americana
What's It Gonna Take (2022) - Contemporary R & B





Edited by Psychedelic Paul - February 03 2023 at 13:51
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^"Some asserting" and "others contend" also imply it's not a general opinion.

True, but what Twelfth Night, IQ and Marillion (and a few others) were doing in 1982-1983 is the beginning of what is called neo-progressive rock. 
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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^"Some asserting" and "others contend" also imply it's not a general opinion.
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

 

 Here is neo-prog explained by PA. "Debate over when Neo-Prog actually came into being often takes place, with some asserting it began with Marillion's Script for a Jester's Tear in 1983. Others contend it began with Twelfth Night at the dawn of the 80s, while some even suggest the popular symphonic prog band Genesis gave rise to Neo-Prog with their 1976 album, A Trick of the Tail."

Yes, i know. But it says "some even suggest..." which means it's not a general opinion. 
Neo-prog was influenced by symphonic prog in general, as well as Pink Floyd, space-rock, VDGG, early 80s sounds etc. 
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Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
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As far as I'm aware, the Live album below was the first ever Neo Prog album....
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Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Most bands that do last some time, I guess, change direction every once in a while, but not from album to album; this often means running the risk of loosing your fans.
This is a very interesting topic, actually.
Thanks.
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^Thanks.

So W & W and the previous release, A Trick, may be the first neo-prog albums?


No, they're not. They were an influence on the neo-prog genre.

Also neo-prog meant a new wave of bands appeared with that sound (similar to what NWOBHM was for metal music of the time), and it started in 1981-1982.

Also "proto-neo-progressive" is not a music genre, let's not invent names to confuse even more. Confused



Here is neo-prog explained by PA. "Debate over when Neo-Prog actually came into being often takes place, with some asserting it began with Marillion's Script for a Jester's Tear in 1983. Others contend it began with Twelfth Night at the dawn of the 80s, while some even suggest the popular symphonic prog band Genesis gave rise to Neo-Prog with their 1976 album, A Trick of the Tail."
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Somehow I'm surprised that nobody mentioned Yes, yet. To me they are emblematic of bands that changed direction after almost every album. Not always to artistic success, but I think they always tried to explore new territories with every album (except for the last ones). Much more than any other band of the big six and many others in prog land...
I was thinking that too. ....

Yes
 CttE (1972) - Symphonic Prog
90125 (1983) - Progressive Pop
Big Generator (1987) - Pop-Rock
Union (1991) - Prog

So Genesis and Yes had certainly "New Directions" in the '80s, and by the way, that is why I don't see them as good candidates for Prog Big Ones in the '80s - it can be added here, Genesis' Invisible Touch (1986) - Pop-Rock.

I don't really understand your Genesis comment. As for your opinion about Yes, I disagree. 90125 is not more prog than BG. If anything you have it backwards. Big Generator has holy lamb, I'm Running, Final Eyes and Shoot High Aim low on it. 90125 has some proggy stuff but it's not more prog than BG. In fact I would say BG is the more proggy of the two but maybe both are a kind of progressive pop-rock but with BG leaning more towards their classic prog sound.

The longevity of bands is of course an aspect that for most of them will imply some change of direction. Most of those bands will have some "periods". This thread is somehow an interesting counterweight for this "Bands whose albums sound the same" one.
But what I was mainly aiming at is that Yes changed direction with almost every album. Compare for exemple the 1970 to 1973 album runs of Yes and Genesis... Trespass to Selling England by the Pound are all evolving into the same direction (imo), whereas the Time and a Word to TFTO run is changing direction with every album (although this may be less the case between Fragile and CTTE). No need for genre labels to come to such a conclusion.
Of course - and fortunately for those bands and for me (since I'm not much fan of "more of the same") - when you change decades, the change of direction can be huge: Nursery Crime/Abacab, CTTE/90125....
(And, to me, the step between 90125 and Big Generator is a small one - one of the few small steps Yes made, they were more often big steps - not really a change of direction)

Most bands that do last some time, I guess, change direction every once in a while, but not from album to album; this often means running the risk of loosing your fans.
This is a very interesting topic, actually.


Edited by suitkees - February 03 2023 at 04:30

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Only mildly prog-related but Queen is another classic example, Queen I, A Night at the Opera, Flash Gordon and A Kind of Magic for example being very different.

Edited by Gerinski - February 03 2023 at 04:17
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Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

How about in a 5 year period? Each starkly different one from another: 

Jethro Tull...
This Was (1968)
Stand Up (1969)
Aqualung (1971)
A Passion Play (1973)

Pink Floyd...
Atom Heart Mother (1970)
Meddle (1971)
The Dark Side of the Moon (1973)
Wish You Were Here (1975)



...and you find further very different ones if you go outside these periods. Clap
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also ^
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Some votes for Genesis and Rush. Anyone want to list four albums from each band that are different?

Genesis
Foxtrot (1972) - Symphonic Prog
The Lamb (1974) - Rock Opera
W & W (1976) - proto-Neo-Prog
Duke (1980) - Progressive Pop
Genesis (1983) - Pop-Rock

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^Thanks.

So W & W and the previous release, A Trick, may be the first neo-prog albums?

I'm no ekspert in Neo-Prog. Big smile


Edited by David_D - February 03 2023 at 02:40
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Somehow I'm surprised that nobody mentioned Yes, yet. To me they are emblematic of bands that changed direction after almost every album. Not always to artistic success, but I think they always tried to explore new territories with every album (except for the last ones). Much more than any other band of the big six and many others in prog land...
I was thinking that too. ....

Yes
 CttE (1972) - Symphonic Prog
90125 (1983) - Progressive Pop
Big Generator (1987) - Pop-Rock
Union (1991) - Prog

So Genesis and Yes had certainly "New Directions" in the '80s, and by the way, that is why I don't see them as good candidates for Prog Big Ones in the '80s - it can be added here, Genesis' Invisible Touch (1986) - Pop-Rock.

I don't really understand your Genesis comment. As for your opinion about Yes, I disagree. 90125 is not more prog than BG. If anything you have it backwards. Big Generator has holy lamb, I'm Running, Final Eyes and Shoot High Aim low on it. 90125 has some proggy stuff but it's not more prog than BG. In fact I would say BG is the more proggy of the two but maybe both are a kind of progressive pop-rock but with BG leaning more towards their classic prog sound.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - February 03 2023 at 02:00
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^Thanks.

So W & W and the previous release, A Trick, may be the first neo-prog albums?

No, they're not. They were an influence on the neo-prog genre.

Also neo-prog  meant a new wave of bands appeared with that sound (similar to what NWOBHM was for metal music of the time), and it started in 1981-1982. 

Also "proto-neo-progressive" is not a music genre, let's not invent names to confuse even more. Confused




Edited by Cristi - February 03 2023 at 01:52
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