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^ Yes, let's wait for Eugene's opinion.

And now we've got 3 "two originals" entries:
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=10727
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=28616
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=45441

Should we kill them? Each has 1 review...
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Originally posted by projeKct projeKct wrote:

^ Thanks David, done. Tongue

Wow that was quick and easy! I was expecting that this action would need to be reviewed and approved by the authorities at discogs before it could actually be carried out. Well done! Clap
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Originally posted by projeKct projeKct wrote:

^ Well, the tool has spoken... Approve

There are 14 entries with "Progressive Line" in the Releases information.

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=4698
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=4992
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=7136
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=7493
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=7575
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=9767
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=10727
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=11180
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=18364
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=22025
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=24224
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=24225
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=28616
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=44692

Maybe there is more albums from that label on PA, because Releases information isn't always well documented.

For example: http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=45441 Embarrassed

Thanks, Julien. I've PMd Keishiro results of David's investigation. I think let's wait for the answer - if Keishiro will damn Progressive Line for all time we'll delete their CDs from Releases info. Little it will change though - tons of albums on PA have quite messy Release info, we can't change the situation in general.

Originally posted by yam yam yam yam wrote:

...all we have to do is edit those fourteen that you've listed above to remove the offending bootleg from the releases information section, and it's job done! Thumbs Up
I agree, but let's wait for almighty Keishiro.


Edited by NotAProghead - February 21 2021 at 19:58
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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Originally posted by projeKct projeKct wrote:

^ Well, the tool has spoken... Approve

There are 14 entries with "Progressive Line" in the Releases information.

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=4698
:
:
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=44692

Maybe there is more albums from that label on PA, because Releases information isn't always well documented.

For example: http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=45441 Embarrassed

Quick work! Approve

As long as Progressive Line isn't actually mentioned in the releases information then it doesn't matter that we're going to have more albums on the site that they have 'bootlegged' at some point. The original vinyl releases of these albums would have all been official ones, with the same track lists and timings as the CD bootlegs. As long as we aren't including the Progressive Line bootleg CD re-issues in the releases information section, then hopefully nobody visiting the site and reading the page will be aware of their existence.

If your tool has sniffed out all the albums we have on the site that specifically mention Progressive Line CDs in the releases information section, and Eugene agrees that these references really hadn't ought to be there, then all we have to do is edit those fourteen that you've listed above to remove the offending bootleg from the releases information section, and it's job done! Thumbs Up
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^ Thanks David, done. Tongue
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Nick Katona replied very promptly to my message on facebook regarding the four Ten Jinn 'Sisyphus' album 'bonus tracks': "It's a bootleg for sure". 

That'll do for me! Approve

Is anyone here a member of discogs, and able to log in and request that the image of the bogus CD inlay is removed from the Sisyphus album page there?
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^ Well, the tool has spoken... Approve

There are 14 entries with "Progressive Line" in the Releases information.

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=4698
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=4992
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=7136
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=7493
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=7575
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=9767
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=10727
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=11180
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=18364
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=22025
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=24224
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=24225
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=28616
http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=44692

Maybe there is more albums from that label on PA, because Releases information isn't always well documented.

For example: http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=45441 Embarrassed


Edited by projeKct - February 21 2021 at 19:28
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And how many more of these dubious Progressive Line 'two in one' releases do we have hidden away on the site I wonder? Ermm


Progressive Line even gets mentioned in the band's biography too "Both albums were never released on Cd until the Australian label Progressive Line released both albums on a 2 album on 1 Cd format in 2003". Stern Smile

Maybe You could tweak your tool again Julien, to enable it to round up any more of them that might be lurking. LOL


I don't think there were that many two-for-one releases by Progressive Line thankfully. A couple that I found listed on discogs haven't been added here, so maybe that's it.

But the next question is, do we need to remove any references to unofficial single album releases by Progressive Line that we have in our releases information, such as here: http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=4698? There are probably going to be a fair few of those, for which we might need Julien to whip his tool out again to help track them all down.


Edited by yam yam - February 21 2021 at 18:13
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Originally posted by projeKct projeKct wrote:

P.S. This album has one review... maybe that's the problem? I'm not sure...

Not a very positive review though lol!  "I'm equally as dismissive when the two are paired up awkwardly like this. Perhaps even moreso. Again; why does this compilation exist?"

That last bit says it all! LOL
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^^ Yeah, I saw that page too, but those are two separate CD cover scans that the guy has in his collection

TEN JINN                            SISYPHUS (CD)
TEN JINN                            PROGDAY ENCORE (CDR)

Progday Encore was available as 7 genuine factory pressed CDs via CDBaby until a few years ago. I actually bought a copy of it from them in 2013. I daresay it has been copied onto CD-Rs a few times since then however.

I've messaged Nick on facebook, since he uses that site all the time. Whether he spots the message from someone he's not connected with is another matter though - facebook don't make these very visible at all.

I'll give him a couple of days to respond, and if he doesn't I'll message him on here instead.
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Originally posted by yam yam yam yam wrote:

Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Old homework for us. One of the albums with empty tracklist: http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=45441.

According to Discogs it is unofficial, as well as the whole record label:
"Unofficial reissue label of unknown origin (identified as Australian on the releases, but in fact from Germany). Their releases have an address and licensing info, but both are bogus. Matrix rings on discs are devoid of any additional information. All releases known are vinyl transfers, and not remastered as stated."
and has to be deleted.

But, as Mayer says, Discogs isn't a Bible. Neither Keishiro nor I could find other confirmations of this release and record label's pirate nature.

Any help is welcome.
It was certainly released - there is one currently for sale on Amazon UK from a third party reseller based in Germany. However, it is not only discogs that claim Progressive Line to be a bootleg label. Musicbrainz do, as well as 45Worlds and RYM. There are a number of forum discussions out there about bootleg releases which all say the same thing regarding Progressive Line as well, including a brief one here on PA. If there is no verifiable address available anywhere for the company, then it has to be regarded with a great deal of suspicion. Reviews I have seen of some of the albums released by them specifically mention the poor sound quality, though reviews of some other releases of theirs actually praise it! Depends on the quality of the original vinyl pressing I suppose.

This text about bootlegs is copied from the CD Reissue Wishlist blog:

7. How can you tell a CD is a bootleg?

There are no sure fire ways, but here are some general tips for modern reissues: 1) Does the label have a website? 2) Does the CD have a band history newly written with participation of the band? 3) Are there unseen photos? 4) Are there bonus tracks that have never been issued before? (watch out for this common trick from bootleggers - they'll include a rare 45 or compilation track taken from their vinyl collection - no different than copying the LP itself). 5) Did the label suddenly reissue dozens of very hard to find albums -- from all over the world -- all at once? This would be impossible to achieve if you are trying to obtain rights, pay royalties, track down band members, tape owners and/or labels, etc... While these are general tips, that doesn't mean that failing to meet all the above is an automatic bootleg. For example, the major labels don't typically do any of those things (except maybe have a website), yet they are entirely legit. Also, due to corporate laws in Japan and Korea, many of the impossible to find major label releases in Europe and the US (that is, those owned by Universal, Sony, etc...) can come out exclusively in Asia, and be totally legal. Also, there's a tendency to arrive at a knee jerk conclusion that everything coming out of Russia is a bootleg. While that's a persistent problem, there are many hardworking legit labels who do it the right way (e.g. MALS, Soyuz, etc...). As always, do your homework, gather the data, and make an honest assessment from there.

8. What's the big deal if I buy a bootleg anyway? The album is impossible to find and I can't afford to pay hundreds of dollars for an original LP. And it's not like the artists are getting paid anyway, right?

In the 1990s, I held this view myself. Then I realized that many of the great albums weren't being reissued BECAUSE there was a bootleg. Labels were discouraged that the potential buying public had been eliminated. And then, like many of my friends, we ended up buying the legit release anyway (after being suckered in by the bootleg) because of 1) better sound 2) quality bonus tracks 3) interesting histories, photos, insights etc... In those days, if you wanted to hear a really rare album, you had to trade cassettes with a closely guarded cabal or --- buy the bootleg. Today it is far easier to obtain a rare recording. Be creative with Google. Do what you have to, but by ALL MEANS, BUY THE LEGIT CD when it gets reissued (if you like the music of course). Don't be a cheapskate!!!!! I'm serious here. No legit label in this business makes much profit, and it's a labor of love at best. We MUST SUPPORT them (that is, using real money and buying their product) if you want more rarities to be reissued! If you buy bootlegs, all you end up doing is lining the pockets of some ambitious record collector. The artists get screwed and, at the end of the day, the music fan gets screwed too. Buying bootlegs is flat out stupid in this modern era.

For me, the Abacus 'Two Originals' release by Progressive Line definitely need to disappear from PA. Thumbs Down

Nice research here, David! I'm on your side again!

I asked Keishiro about it (a week ago), and his answer was "I think we do not need to hurry up for such an issue, but to research carefully."

Maybe time has come? Wink

P.S. This album has one review... maybe that's the problem? I'm not sure...

NAP: Thanks, David, for your research. When I cried "Help!" I had no doubts where it may come from. Smile 
Julien, I think review isn't a problem here, it's doomed - no release, no review, no problem. 


Edited by NotAProghead - February 21 2021 at 17:44
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^ Good idea. Did you already ask him?

In the meantime, I went back and edited the tracklist. I think the officiel CD has only two tracks, as mentioned here (see photo).

And here I found a mention for a Ten Jinn CD-R titled "ProgDay Encore"... so it looks like you are right, David. Ermm


Edited by projeKct - February 21 2021 at 16:20
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Originally posted by Per Kohler Per Kohler wrote:

From Discogs reverse photo of the album

Originally posted by projeKct projeKct wrote:

^ Now I see it, thanks, done! Wink

I smell a rat... 🐀
 
Why aren't these 'bonus tracks' mentioned anywhere on the Internet? Ermm

Even in this piece titled "Melodic Revolution Records is thrilled to sign International prog band TEN JINN for a multi-album deal", on progradar.com, there is no mention of any bonus tracks being included on the CD issue of the album, and the image on discogs shows the title of the CD as 'Sisyphus + Progday Encore' & not just 'Sisyphus'. Confused There is no mention anywhere on the Internet of such an album being officially released, by Melodic Revolution Records or anyone else. Is this a photo of yet another bootleg CD? Disapprove

As I said in my previous reply, I can't really imagine why these four totally unrelated old live tracks recorded almost 20 years earlier would get chucked in at the end of a new eight-part concept album which tells the story of the founder and King of Corinth! It makes no sense whatsoever to me, other than as an attempt by some bootleg label or other to steal sales of the album by throwing in these now very hard to find 'freebies' from the band's distant past in order to tempt the punters. The image on discogs has no copyright info, release information etc visible, and looks to me like a very basic printing of the disc inlay rather than a genuine article.

Let's ask Nick Katona of MMR if this is a genuine release or not - he's a member here (albeit not a particularly regular visitor).
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Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Old homework for us. One of the albums with empty tracklist: http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=45441.

According to Discogs it is unofficial, as well as the whole record label:
"Unofficial reissue label of unknown origin (identified as Australian on the releases, but in fact from Germany). Their releases have an address and licensing info, but both are bogus. Matrix rings on discs are devoid of any additional information. All releases known are vinyl transfers, and not remastered as stated."
and has to be deleted.

But, as Mayer says, Discogs isn't a Bible. Neither Keishiro nor I could find other confirmations of this release and record label's pirate nature.

Any help is welcome.
It was certainly released - there is one currently for sale on Amazon UK from a third party reseller based in Germany. However, it is not only discogs that claim Progressive Line to be a bootleg label. Musicbrainz do, as well as 45Worlds and RYM. There are a number of forum discussions out there about bootleg releases which all say the same thing regarding Progressive Line as well, including a brief one here on PA. If there is no verifiable address available anywhere for the company, then it has to be regarded with a great deal of suspicion. Reviews I have seen of some of the albums released by them specifically mention the poor sound quality, though reviews of some other releases of theirs actually praise it! Depends on the quality of the original vinyl pressing I suppose.

This text about bootlegs is copied from the CD Reissue Wishlist blog:

7. How can you tell a CD is a bootleg?

There are no sure fire ways, but here are some general tips for modern reissues: 1) Does the label have a website? 2) Does the CD have a band history newly written with participation of the band? 3) Are there unseen photos? 4) Are there bonus tracks that have never been issued before? (watch out for this common trick from bootleggers - they'll include a rare 45 or compilation track taken from their vinyl collection - no different than copying the LP itself). 5) Did the label suddenly reissue dozens of very hard to find albums -- from all over the world -- all at once? This would be impossible to achieve if you are trying to obtain rights, pay royalties, track down band members, tape owners and/or labels, etc... While these are general tips, that doesn't mean that failing to meet all the above is an automatic bootleg. For example, the major labels don't typically do any of those things (except maybe have a website), yet they are entirely legit. Also, due to corporate laws in Japan and Korea, many of the impossible to find major label releases in Europe and the US (that is, those owned by Universal, Sony, etc...) can come out exclusively in Asia, and be totally legal. Also, there's a tendency to arrive at a knee jerk conclusion that everything coming out of Russia is a bootleg. While that's a persistent problem, there are many hardworking legit labels who do it the right way (e.g. MALS, Soyuz, etc...). As always, do your homework, gather the data, and make an honest assessment from there.

8. What's the big deal if I buy a bootleg anyway? The album is impossible to find and I can't afford to pay hundreds of dollars for an original LP. And it's not like the artists are getting paid anyway, right?

In the 1990s, I held this view myself. Then I realized that many of the great albums weren't being reissued BECAUSE there was a bootleg. Labels were discouraged that the potential buying public had been eliminated. And then, like many of my friends, we ended up buying the legit release anyway (after being suckered in by the bootleg) because of 1) better sound 2) quality bonus tracks 3) interesting histories, photos, insights etc... In those days, if you wanted to hear a really rare album, you had to trade cassettes with a closely guarded cabal or --- buy the bootleg. Today it is far easier to obtain a rare recording. Be creative with Google. Do what you have to, but by ALL MEANS, BUY THE LEGIT CD when it gets reissued (if you like the music of course). Don't be a cheapskate!!!!! I'm serious here. No legit label in this business makes much profit, and it's a labor of love at best. We MUST SUPPORT them (that is, using real money and buying their product) if you want more rarities to be reissued! If you buy bootlegs, all you end up doing is lining the pockets of some ambitious record collector. The artists get screwed and, at the end of the day, the music fan gets screwed too. Buying bootlegs is flat out stupid in this modern era.

For me, the Abacus 'Two Originals' release by Progressive Line definitely need to disappear from PA. Thumbs Down
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http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=71956

Album's name: The Princess of the Allen Keys (The History of Manto)

song 7 is: The Princess of the Allen Keys (Not Alien)

- Fabrizio Dossena / acoustic guitar
- Davide Jori / electric guitars
- Cristiano Roversi / keyboards, chapman stick, classic orchestrations, guitars
- Erik Montanari / electric guitars, acoustic guitars
- Ezio Secomandi / drums
- Mirko Tagliasacchi / bass
- Antonio De Sarno / spoken word (1)
- Donata Luani "Manto" / vocals (2-7)

With:
- Nad Sylvan "Virgil" / vocals (3-7)
- Stefano Boccafoglia "Tiresias" / vocals (1)
- Beatrice Cotifava "The Princess of the Allen Keys" / vocals (7)
- Aran Bertetto "Charon" / spoken word (5)
- Mauro Negri / saxophone

https://www.facebook.com/Noisy-Diners-806483856380694/photos/pcb.1329819670713774/1329819440713797/
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Old homework for us. One of the albums with empty tracklist: http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=45441.

According to Discogs it is unofficial, as well as the whole record label:
"Unofficial reissue label of unknown origin (identified as Australian on the releases, but in fact from Germany). Their releases have an address and licensing info, but both are bogus. Matrix rings on discs are devoid of any additional information. All releases known are vinyl transfers, and not remastered as stated."
and has to be deleted.

But, as Mayer says, Discogs isn't a Bible. Neither Keishiro nor I could find other confirmations of this release and record label's pirate nature.

Any help is welcome.
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
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^ Now I see it, thanks, done! Wink
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From Discogs reverse photo of the album
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Still it's a normal name even if it's a side project
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Well, I understand your concern, but because of the "later Wahnfried" I think we can classify this under "W". Weird artist/project/band name anyway... Wacko
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