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SteveG View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2016 at 04:24
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I think the Ansbach attacker had been treated for mental illness, not that that's an excuse for doing what he did, but may explain it more so than straight forward Islamic extremist ideology. We don't know the full background of this individual, and we're getting to the point now where terrorist attacks are so frequent across Europe that the media is going to have to start putting controls on how they report such events because of the effect it will have on the support of far right groups and a bloody and uncontrollable backlash.

If things keep going this way we will be in a situation where everyone will have to go through scanners or pat downs before going into a shopping mall. No one will want to go to music festivals out of fear. If we get to that point then the war is over, and will have been won, but not by Europe or the US.
Isn't all violent fanaticism mental illness?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2016 at 04:10
Yep, I'd read that he had mental health issues. Far right groups will grow in power, I think that's unavoidable, and I do think that there will be a violent, uncontrollable backlash. Problem with such ideology is that it preys on those (or appeals to) who are weak-minded, maladjusted, and have mental health problems, such as in the case of the schizophrenic nanny in Russia who beheaded her ward and carried it around in the streets inspired by watching ISIS beheadings and told journalists that Allah had ordered her to behead the girl.

I'd like to think that we're moving more and more into a rational society that is outgrowing superstition and hatreds, but it's feeling less rational by the day. The climate's being destroyed, extremism of different forms is on the rise, these are dark days, but I have hope for the future.

Edited by Logan - July 25 2016 at 04:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2016 at 03:43
I think the Ansbach attacker had been treated for mental illness, not that that's an excuse for doing what he did, but may explain it more so than straight forward Islamic extremist ideology. We don't know the full background of this individual, and we're getting to the point now where terrorist attacks are so frequent across Europe that the media is going to have to start putting controls on how they report such events because of the effect it will have on the support of far right groups and a bloody and uncontrollable backlash.

If things keep going this way we will be in a situation where everyone will have to go through scanners or pat downs before going into a shopping mall. No one will want to go to music festivals out of fear. If we get to that point then the war is over, and will have been won, but not by Europe or the US.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2016 at 03:39
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

This is a nice sentiment, and I wish it were true.
I agree that social conditions seem to play a vital part, but that's all that I'm in agreement with in your statement.
The way I see it, it is not a matter of ethnic background or nationality, this seems to be entirely religious-driven. It transcends countries, borders and ethnic groups. It's almost ethereal.
I can't even remember when or if I last heard of a Christian, Hindu, or Buddhist rampage.


that's because of the media selection. do you know that there were 5 terrorist attacks by catholic anti-abortionists in 2015 in the USA alone? (arson in California, Illinois, Washington and Louisiana, three people killed and nine injured in a shooting in Colorado)? probably not; crimes by fanatic Catholics are just not the big headlines; a crime by someone of Islamic faith just gets more attention


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2016 at 03:31
The Munich one was a different sort of case.

Of course most are nice. But when you have several attacks in a week from migrants with a certain religious faith in a week and that follows closely on the heels of a serious attack on a neighboring country which has experienced several horrific attacks, and your country has taken on a massive number of refugees/migrants from certain parts of the world which have bred many terrorists and terrorist sympathizers, it's understandable that people might be worried. I do think more people should read the Quran and Hadith to get to know the faith better.

Social conditions may well be the most important factor, but the social conditions is certain countries may have got people used to violence and very angry. It's hard to create the right social conditions for any culture and peoples you bring in when you bring in so, so many so, so quickly. France and Belgium never seemed to manage well with certain groups, even over generations. The West should fear militant Islamism as do many moderate Moslems and other people's in predominantly Moslem nations. Sharia, for instance, is really at odds with Western law, but a considerable number want to see it imposed. There is a problem when certain cultures are at odds with the cultures they live in.

Religious-driven extremism is very scary as it is so irrational and people believe that they will be rewarded for what we could consider abhorrent behavior. Since Charlie Hebdo in particular, I've become less tolerant of intolerant peoples.

Helping the refugees is great and just, but a state's primary responsibility is the safety and welfare of its own citizens first.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2016 at 03:15

This is a nice sentiment, and I wish it were true.
I agree that social conditions seem to play a vital part, but that's all that I'm in agreement with in your statement.
The way I see it, it is not a matter of ethnic background or nationality, this seems to be entirely religious-driven. It transcends countries, borders and ethnic groups. It's almost ethereal.
I can't even remember when or if I last heard of a Christian, Hindu, or Buddhist rampage.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2016 at 02:47
even if the Ansbach assailant is Syrian: we still know nothing of the background. and the Munich assailant had a German parent. I think social conditions have a lot more to do with becoming a terrorist than ethnicity.

I deal with people from other countries and of other ethnic backgrounds almost daily, many of them benig refugees. Friede and I do voluntary work in a neighborhood center, and many of the people who come there are of the Islamic faith. all of them are very nice people


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2016 at 02:25
Originally posted by BaldJean BaldJean wrote:

Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

First of all, I must admit that this is an emotional response, after this latest attack I’m not nearly calm enough for a measured reply. I am very, very angry.
I have lived in Germany for many decades now and have therefore been living in a civilized, safe environment and society. This now appears to be over.
The mornings now consist of getting up and scanning the news headlines, not so much as to read about any new world developments, but wondering if a new attack has happened on my home soil, where this happened, and how many casualties there have been. I expect this now.
This is the country in which I now live.
When the refugees first arrived, I belonged to the faction that supported the decision of the German government to help these people; it was the civilized and humane thing to do. I supported this view vehemently until very recently. I couldn’t understand the other European countries closing their borders and refusing entry to all these poor people seeking shelter and help from war and destruction in their own countries.
Now I am forced to admit that they were right and I was wrong.
The problem is that I still firmly believe that the vast majority of refugees are frightened and helpless people who need support after a terrible ordeal, and there are relatively few who pose a threat or danger, but it’s these few who are threatening me and my friends’ and family’s personal safety. The comforting feeling of safety is gone, the war has now been moved to my home turf.
I know I may be overreacting; as I said earlier, this is an emotional response, but I no longer feel 100% safe in our own cities. My response is to eye foreigners I pass everywhere with careful suspicion, something I’ve never done before. It’s an unconscious reflex response. I don’t want it to be that way, but I can’t help it. It’s not really that I suspect some of them to go berserk all of a sudden, but wondering if I’m unlucky enough to come across one of those few who spell trouble. It could happen anywhere, anytime. That’s the country I now live in. And because of that, I feel angry.
At the same time I realise that this is the intended response, so I also feel manipulated and bad about my own changing viewpoint.
I don’t think there is a solution. There is no opponent to talk to or no one with whom to come to an agreement, and the killing in the country in which I live will go on, becoming more and more common with each passing week.
The mistake has been made, the floodgates have been opened and the enemy that can’t be seen is walking among us, and it’s now a new country that is only beginning its downward spiral with no solution in sight. This sounds melodramatic, it probably is, but that’s the way I feel about it.
I can only hope that, given enough cause, this country won’t descend into vigilantism with angry mobs starting to roam the streets at night. Looking at the ghastly political developments with the far right parties on the rise, I don’t think this is very far away. After all, a few months back none of us would have thought it possible what’s happening here now.
Both God and Allah help us all.


I have been living in Germany since 1993. I don't share these feelings, but I understand them. I do however not support your conclusion "Now I am forced to admit that they were right and I was wrong". excuse me?

the Munich shootist was born and raised in Germany; he held German as well as Iranian citizenship. he does not have any connections to refugees at all. he was German period, just as I am German now. and everything points to him being someone running amok; there is no terrorist background at all. and I sincerely doubt his ethnicity has anything to do with his amok run.

as to the bombing in Arnsbach: nothing is known of the background of that bombing yet. it is therefore just jumping to conclusions as to the perpetrator(s) of that bombing.

so I don't see how you arrive at your conclusion



The bombing is purported to have been done by a Syrian asylum seeker. Is that still very much in question?

From the link I posted above https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/25/ansbach-explosion-german-town-deliberate-blast-latest:

Quote Official says attacker probably an Islamist

Bavarian Interior Minister Joachim Herrmann said it likely that the attack was the work of an “Islamist” suicide bomber, Deutsche Presse-Agentur reports.

It quotes him saying: “My personal opinion is that I unfortunately think it is very obvious that there has been a real Islamist suicide attack here. The obvious intent to kill more people, at least indicates an Islamist background.”


------------------------
The shooter's parents were from Iran, but Shiite, which are the enemies of groups like IS.

The man who killed a woman in the machete attack was a Syrian refugee.

And a hand-drawn IS flag was found at the home of the 17 year old Afghan refugee that did the attack on the train.

It's been a bloody week for Germany.

Edited by Logan - July 25 2016 at 02:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2016 at 02:25
As I said, my response is emotional.
In cases such as Munich I do see an indirect connection to terrorism, as the psychological threshold to commit  acts off mass violence seems to be dropping in relationship to recent actual terrorist motivated attacks. This would especially include mentally unstable individuals without direct ties.
This is a very frightening aspect.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2016 at 02:03
Originally posted by npjnpj npjnpj wrote:

First of all, I must admit that this is an emotional response, after this latest attack I’m not nearly calm enough for a measured reply. I am very, very angry.

I have lived in Germany for many decades now and have therefore been living in a civilized, safe environment and society. This now appears to be over.

The mornings now consist of getting up and scanning the news headlines, not so much as to read about any new world developments, but wondering if a new attack has happened on my home soil, where this happened, and how many casualties there have been. I expect this now.

This is the country in which I now live.

When the refugees first arrived, I belonged to the faction that supported the decision of the German government to help these people; it was the civilized and humane thing to do. I supported this view vehemently until very recently. I couldn’t understand the other European countries closing their borders and refusing entry to all these poor people seeking shelter and help from war and destruction in their own countries.

Now I am forced to admit that they were right and I was wrong.

The problem is that I still firmly believe that the vast majority of refugees are frightened and helpless people who need support after a terrible ordeal, and there are relatively few who pose a threat or danger, but it’s these few who are threatening me and my friends’ and family’s personal safety. The comforting feeling of safety is gone, the war has now been moved to my home turf.

I know I may be overreacting; as I said earlier, this is an emotional response, but I no longer feel 100% safe in our own cities. My response is to eye foreigners I pass everywhere with careful suspicion, something I’ve never done before. It’s an unconscious reflex response. I don’t want it to be that way, but I can’t help it. It’s not really that I suspect some of them to go berserk all of a sudden, but wondering if I’m unlucky enough to come across one of those few who spell trouble. It could happen anywhere, anytime. That’s the country I now live in. And because of that, I feel angry.

At the same time I realise that this is the intended response, so I also feel manipulated and bad about my own changing viewpoint.

I don’t think there is a solution. There is no opponent to talk to or no one with whom to come to an agreement, and the killing in the country in which I live will go on, becoming more and more common with each passing week.

The mistake has been made, the floodgates have been opened and the enemy that can’t be seen is walking among us, and it’s now a new country that is only beginning its downward spiral with no solution in sight. This sounds melodramatic, it probably is, but that’s the way I feel about it.

I can only hope that, given enough cause, this country won’t descend into vigilantism with angry mobs starting to roam the streets at night. Looking at the ghastly political developments with the far right parties on the rise, I don’t think this is very far away. After all, a few months back none of us would have thought it possible what’s happening here now.

Both God and Allah help us all.


I have been living in Germany since 1993. I don't share these feelings, but I understand them. I do however not support your conclusion "Now I am forced to admit that they were right and I was wrong". excuse me?

the Munich shootist was born and raised in Germany; he held German as well as Iranian citizenship. he does not have any connections to refugees at all. he was German period, just as I am German now. and everything points to him being someone running amok; there is no terrorist background at all. and I sincerely doubt his ethnicity has anything to do with his amok run.

as to the bombing in Arnsbach: nothing is known of the background of that bombing yet. it is therefore just jumping to conclusions as to the perpetrator(s) of that bombing.

so I don't see how you arrive at your conclusion


Edited by BaldJean - July 25 2016 at 02:05


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2016 at 01:46
That's a very heartfelt post, and I feel terrible about the situation.

Incidentally, for those that haven't read the articles or heard this on the news, apparently Ian Anderson was set to perform at the music festival that the suicide bomber was not allowed into.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2016 at 00:44
First of all, I must admit that this is an emotional response, after this latest attack I’m not nearly calm enough for a measured reply. I am very, very angry.

I have lived in Germany for many decades now and have therefore been living in a civilized, safe environment and society. This now appears to be over.

The mornings now consist of getting up and scanning the news headlines, not so much as to read about any new world developments, but wondering if a new attack has happened on my home soil, where this happened, and how many casualties there have been. I expect this now.

This is the country in which I now live.

When the refugees first arrived, I belonged to the faction that supported the decision of the German government to help these people; it was the civilized and humane thing to do. I supported this view vehemently until very recently. I couldn’t understand the other European countries closing their borders and refusing entry to all these poor people seeking shelter and help from war and destruction in their own countries.

Now I am forced to admit that they were right and I was wrong.

The problem is that I still firmly believe that the vast majority of refugees are frightened and helpless people who need support after a terrible ordeal, and there are relatively few who pose a threat or danger, but it’s these few who are threatening me and my friends’ and family’s personal safety. The comforting feeling of safety is gone, the war has now been moved to my home turf.

I know I may be overreacting; as I said earlier, this is an emotional response, but I no longer feel 100% safe in our own cities. My response is to eye foreigners I pass everywhere with careful suspicion, something I’ve never done before. It’s an unconscious reflex response. I don’t want it to be that way, but I can’t help it. It’s not really that I suspect some of them to go berserk all of a sudden, but wondering if I’m unlucky enough to come across one of those few who spell trouble. It could happen anywhere, anytime. That’s the country I now live in. And because of that, I feel angry.

At the same time I realise that this is the intended response, so I also feel manipulated and bad about my own changing viewpoint.

I don’t think there is a solution. There is no opponent to talk to or no one with whom to come to an agreement, and the killing in the country in which I live will go on, becoming more and more common with each passing week.

The mistake has been made, the floodgates have been opened and the enemy that can’t be seen is walking among us, and it’s now a new country that is only beginning its downward spiral with no solution in sight. This sounds melodramatic, it probably is, but that’s the way I feel about it.

I can only hope that, given enough cause, this country won’t descend into vigilantism with angry mobs starting to roam the streets at night. Looking at the ghastly political developments with the far right parties on the rise, I don’t think this is very far away. After all, a few months back none of us would have thought it possible what’s happening here now.

Both God and Allah help us all.



Edited by npjnpj - July 25 2016 at 00:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2016 at 21:59
Another incident in Germany: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/25/ansbach-explosion-german-town-deliberate-blast-latest :(

Edited by Logan - July 24 2016 at 22:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2016 at 19:08
Originally posted by Sardonite Calamity Sardonite Calamity wrote:

Again! Muslim Terrorists! If its not Islam then I don't know what the
fk it is!

1. the thread is on an incident with a perpetrator with no religious motivation.
2. if you are referring to the machete attack there is no stated religious motivation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2016 at 18:11
Originally posted by Sardonite Calamity Sardonite Calamity wrote:

Again! Muslim Terrorists! If its not Islam then I don't know what the
fk it is!



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2016 at 18:10
^ Ah, our new resident fear-monger.  Welcome to the party.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2016 at 18:07
Again! Muslim Terrorists! If its not Islam then I don't know what the
fk it is!
I used to have a really good signature but I forgot it...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2016 at 15:36
Sure nevermind ?... Actually it's better we forget this conversation because I'm paranoidly mistaken : I'd thought you were commenting to Vompatti on me, and not on the mass shooter...

Enmity between us is thus powered by no comment, and I have the rest of my life to go figure why I wouldn't read your comments the proper way.


So all the best and let's locate lunatics-to-be and get them on better tracks !!!





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2016 at 14:52
Originally posted by jayem jayem wrote:

Vompatti didn't reply to some group of people, and you didn't call a "standard nutter" some group of people. Anyway I don't feel offended on behalf of some group of people.

In that case nvm then. I did not mean to invoke any idea of mental illness though (due to the fact that he apparently was treated for one), it is often blamed as a cause for shootings despite the fact that a vast majority of mentally ill people are more of a danger to themselves than anyone else.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2016 at 13:36
We've all seen this movie and we're sick of it. Solo wacko or mass wackos, it all results in the same ending. Unhappy
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