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Sean Trane 
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19740
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 Posted: February 02 2017 at 10:03 |
 Rednight wrote:
HackettFan wrote:
Banks once objected in an interview many years ago that the Pop direction was always there, that as early as Nursery Cryme, they tried short songs, but they didn't know how to do them. I disagree with him totally. Harold the Barrel could have made an excellent hit. But if it doesn't get recognized and given airtime, well we'll never know. The question isn't so much who made them Pop. I can forgive them for an occasional hit, after all (BTW the first hit was actually I know What I Like...). The question is, or should be; Why did they abandon Prog? We're they still capable of doing Prog as a trio? I'm left wondering about that when I hear the Neo-Prog attempt of Second Home By the Sea. |
Harold the Barrel a possible pop hit? What an offbeat suggestion. |
TBH, if label-mates Lindisfarne could do it with something as oddball as Fog on The Tyne the same year as HTB (both 71)....
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Rednight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 18 2014
Location: Mar Vista, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 4807
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Posted: February 02 2017 at 09:00 |
HackettFan wrote:
Banks once objected in an interview many years ago that the Pop direction was always there, that as early as Nursery Cryme, they tried short songs, but they didn't know how to do them. I disagree with him totally. Harold the Barrel could have made an excellent hit. But if it doesn't get recognized and given airtime, well we'll never know. The question isn't so much who made them Pop. I can forgive them for an occasional hit, after all (BTW the first hit was actually I know What I Like...). The question is, or should be; Why did they abandon Prog? We're they still capable of doing Prog as a trio? I'm left wondering about that when I hear the Neo-Prog attempt of Second Home By the Sea. |
Harold the Barrel a possible pop hit? What an offbeat suggestion.
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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: February 02 2017 at 08:27 |
HackettFan wrote:
Banks once objected in an interview many years ago that the Pop direction was always there, that as early as Nursery Cryme, they tried short songs, but they didn't know how to do them. I disagree with him totally. Harold the Barrel could have made an excellent hit. But if it doesn't get recognized and given airtime, well we'll never know. The question isn't so much who made them Pop. I can forgive them for an occasional hit, after all (BTW the first hit was actually I know What I Like...). The question is, or should be; Why did they abandon Prog? We're they still capable of doing Prog as a trio? I'm left wondering about that when I hear the Neo-Prog attempt of Second Home By the Sea. |
I think the role of Collins is understated in the pop-ification of Genesis. As in, it probably goes back way earlier and wasn't just a light switch change in the 80s. If you take the tracks of Trick of the Tail, esp Squonk or the title track, they would fit on a non prog album, no problem. Most of the tracks have fairly uncomplicated intros, at least by prog standards, and are pretty easy to get into. It's hands down their most accessible album up to that point. Now what changed from Lamb to Trick? Basically Gabriel leaving and Collins becoming their frontman. So perhaps he was already keen on a more pop direction, starting with 'watered' down prog (I put it in quotes because Trick is an excellent album nevertheless), since he was already fond of Motown.
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twosteves
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2007
Location: NYC/Rhinebeck
Status: Offline
Points: 4077
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Posted: February 02 2017 at 07:51 |
Dellinger wrote:
twosteves wrote:
Squonk obviously came from that book---the whole of Trick is a series of fractured fairy tails----but it was stated many times--Squonk was written in reference to Peter leaving the band and crying backstage a lot during the Lamb tour ----having a lot of problems at the time.
But I also think as far as late 80's and early 90's prog---Genesis thanks to Banks songs always had updated but proggy songs on them along with the pop singles. Trevor Rabin once said he wished Yes west could do the same---some pop singles and some long prog like songs around the time Talk came out-- but that never happened has Rabin doesn;t have the writing chops that Genesis had----songs like Dodo, Domino, Fading lights, Home by the sea, and Driving the Last spike are certainly not pop but updated prog. |
Endless Dream is a wonderful prog song on Talk that for me is the perfect prog epic for the 90's, and as far as I understand, it's mainly Trevor's song. |
True-- it hasn't held up for me the way the late Genesis songs have but you are right---unfortunately there are no good pop songs on that album just cheesy bad one's---with the exception of one or two.
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cemego
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 18 2010
Location: Philadelphia PA
Status: Offline
Points: 498
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Posted: February 02 2017 at 01:28 |
Just to add my 2 cents here, I love all of Genesis and the solo bits. But my favorite Genesis era is 1976-79, so:
Trick of The Tail Spot The Pigeon EP Seconds Out Wind & Wuthering AND ...and then there were three..
These are my favorites. I respect the Gabriel stuff, but this era was just a little more enjoyable for me.
Edited by cemego - February 02 2017 at 01:29
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listen to streaming stuff! no commercials!
http://wmom.servemp3.com:8000/listen.pls
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Dellinger
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
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Posted: February 01 2017 at 21:09 |
twosteves wrote:
Squonk obviously came from that book---the whole of Trick is a series of fractured fairy tails----but it was stated many times--Squonk was written in reference to Peter leaving the band and crying backstage a lot during the Lamb tour ----having a lot of problems at the time.
But I also think as far as late 80's and early 90's prog---Genesis thanks to Banks songs always had updated but proggy songs on them along with the pop singles. Trevor Rabin once said he wished Yes west could do the same---some pop singles and some long prog like songs around the time Talk came out-- but that never happened has Rabin doesn;t have the writing chops that Genesis had----songs like Dodo, Domino, Fading lights, Home by the sea, and Driving the Last spike are certainly not pop but updated prog. |
Endless Dream is a wonderful prog song on Talk that for me is the perfect prog epic for the 90's, and as far as I understand, it's mainly Trevor's song.
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twosteves
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2007
Location: NYC/Rhinebeck
Status: Offline
Points: 4077
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Posted: February 01 2017 at 20:37 |
Squonk obviously came from that book---the whole of Trick is a series of fractured fairy tails----but it was stated many times--Squonk was written in reference to Peter leaving the band and crying backstage a lot during the Lamb tour ----having a lot of problems at the time.
But I also think as far as late 80's and early 90's prog---Genesis thanks to Banks songs always had updated but proggy songs on them along with the pop singles. Trevor Rabin once said he wished Yes west could do the same---some pop singles and some long prog like songs around the time Talk came out-- but that never happened has Rabin doesn;t have the writing chops that Genesis had----songs like Dodo, Domino, Fading lights, Home by the sea, and Driving the Last spike are certainly not pop but updated prog.
Edited by twosteves - February 01 2017 at 20:42
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Flight123
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2010
Location: Sohar, Oman
Status: Offline
Points: 1399
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Posted: February 01 2017 at 04:24 |
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Well, they started off as a pop group until the winter of 69 in the cottage and they heard King Crimson and saw The Nice. I don't think they abandoned prog totally (the excellent Chester Thompson even had trouble playing 'Down and Out' live such was the fiendishness of Collins's tempo...) but just marginalised it in favour of standard song formats.
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 7946
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Posted: January 31 2017 at 17:05 |
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Banks once objected in an interview many years ago that the Pop direction was always there, that as early as Nursery Cryme, they tried short songs, but they didn't know how to do them. I disagree with him totally. Harold the Barrel could have made an excellent hit. But if it doesn't get recognized and given airtime, well we'll never know. The question isn't so much who made them Pop. I can forgive them for an occasional hit, after all (BTW the first hit was actually I know What I Like...). The question is, or should be; Why did they abandon Prog? We're they still capable of doing Prog as a trio? I'm left wondering about that when I hear the Neo-Prog attempt of Second Home By the Sea.
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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
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Points: 20538
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Posted: January 31 2017 at 15:41 |
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Strike out Giant Hogweed, insert Squonk.
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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Cosmiclawnmower
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 09 2010
Location: West Country,UK
Status: Offline
Points: 3082
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Posted: January 31 2017 at 14:48 |
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And the song 'Trick of the tail' was, in part, inspired by the book 'The Inheritors' by William Golding. Tony Banks was evidently well read and it informed many of his lyrics. A bit too wordy in many cases.. 'all in a mouse's night' and (the marvellous) 'Watcher of the skies' are two that come to mind.
I think that the move towards a shorter and simpler 'more accessable format mixed with the occasional longer, slightly more complex songs was just an inevitability; 'Down and out' is one of the standout tracks (along with 'Burning Rope') and just repeats the well worn A&R trope of the late 70's.. look at what was around at the same time- Fleetwood Mac, the Eagles, ELP (Love Beach.. Yuch!!).. buckloads of coke.. lots of bands spent the 70's sticking to their principles and being ripped off and if they had survived at all, were just tired out from slogging tours and endless creation of the next lp. I think the three remaining members had a strong survival instinct, all had a personal love of 60's pop and an actual chemistry (a lot of 'Lamb' was played out by Banks/Collins/Rutherford and seeing the 3 take flight during 'Cinema show' made you realise just how tight they were. Although i still, personally, prefer to listen to pre-77 Genesis, i agree that all of the later albums had something to offer and an element of that indefinable spark.
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Cosmiclawnmower
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 09 2010
Location: West Country,UK
Status: Offline
Points: 3082
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Posted: January 31 2017 at 14:26 |
Squonk, lyrically, was inspired by the entry in the William T Cox fantasy field guide 'Fearsome Creatures of Lumberwoods with a few desert and mountain beasts' published in 1910 and mentioned also in Jorge Luis Borges 'The book of imaginary beings'- THE SQUONK.
(Lacrimacorpus dissolvens.)
The range of the squonk is very limited. Few people outside
of Pennsylvania have ever heard of the quaint beast, which is
said to be fairly common in the hemlock forests of that State.
The squonk is of a very retiring disposition, generally traveling
about at twilight and dusk. Because of its misfitting skin,
which is covered with warts and moles, it is always unhappy ;
in fact it is said, by people who are best able to judge, to be the
most morbid of beast. Hunters who are good at tracking are
able to follow a squonk by its tear-stained trail, for the animal
weeps constantly. When cornered and escape seems impossible,
or when surprised and frightened, it may even dissolve itself
in tears. Squonk hunters are most successful on frosty moonlight nights,
when tears are shed slowly and the animal dislikes
moving about ; it may then be heard weeping under the boughs
of dark hemlock trees. Mr. J. P. Wentling, formerly of Pennsylvania, but
now at St. Anthony Park, Minnesota, had a disappointing experience with
a squonk near Mont Alto. He
made a clever capture by mimicking the squonk and inducing
it to hop into a sack, in which he was carrying it home, when
suddenly the burden lightened and the weeping ceased. Wentling unslung
the sack and looked in. There was nothing but
tears and bubbles.
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Flight123
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2010
Location: Sohar, Oman
Status: Offline
Points: 1399
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Posted: January 30 2017 at 02:55 |
I have just read the Collins autobio, 'Not Dead Yet'. Following the departure of Gabriel, Collins proposed at least twice to the rest of the group that they become an instrumental band - imagine that!
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19740
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Posted: January 30 2017 at 01:36 |
twosteves wrote:
I read that just like Squonk was a song directed at Gabriels departureDown and Out was directed at Hackett's departure--- |
didn't know for Squonk, I will check this.
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Dellinger
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: June 18 2009
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 12625
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 21:33 |
Tillerman88 wrote:
tdfloyd wrote:
Waters seemed to want total control. Gilmour is all over Animals and The Wall and only has a couple of credits. It is something that Gilmour has occasionally complained about in the past. Those solos were his, Waters didn't write them out for him. Some of Wrights best playing was on Animals. That 2 plus minute intro on Sheep is mostly all him. I would imagine Waters didn't write it out and instead said I need something here, what do you have. How does Wright not get a credit? |
Just one more time a bit off-topic, if I may......... Frankly, more than casually I see Floyd fans forgetting how such a sensible guy Rick Wright was, and the fact that he was not such an egocentric member as Waters nor of such strong a character as is Gilmour or even Mason. This fact alone put clearly on evidence how overlooked was his essential contribution to the band as a whole, and i've always felt his greatness very present, especially when his sounds most seemed overshadowed by the other members works, that's exactly when his subtleties took the 'laurel'. . ..
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Wright was as important to the sound and success of the band as any other element you may want to think of. Waters may have given the lyrics and thematic cohesion to the band, but Wright gave the sonic and ambient cohesion.
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Jeffro
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 29 2014
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2081
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 18:51 |
I'm watching this right now. Good commentary by everyone involved
Edited by Jeffro - January 29 2017 at 18:53
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twosteves
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2007
Location: NYC/Rhinebeck
Status: Offline
Points: 4077
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 17:58 |
I read that just like Squonk was a song directed at Gabriels departure Down and Out was directed at Hackett's departure---
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CapnBearbossa
Forum Groupie
Joined: May 11 2016
Location: Baltimore
Status: Offline
Points: 59
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 12:24 |
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"Blame" implies someone ruined Genesis post Wind&Wuthering , or whenever, and I don't really buy into that idea. I think pretty much every Genesis album has a lot to offer.
If you want a scapegoat for why they diverged from prog however, then blame ... punk.
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Will higher mighty force redeem
the one who dropped the moral compass,
failed to fulfill the dream?
-Ian Anderson
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Tillerman88
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 31 2015
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 495
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 07:59 |
tdfloyd wrote:
Waters seemed to want total control. Gilmour is all over Animals and The Wall and only has a couple of credits. It is something that Gilmour has occasionally complained about in the past. Those solos were his, Waters didn't write them out for him. Some of Wrights best playing was on Animals. That 2 plus minute intro on Sheep is mostly all him. I would imagine Waters didn't write it out and instead said I need something here, what do you have. How does Wright not get a credit? |
Just one more time a bit off-topic, if I may......... Frankly, more than casually I see Floyd fans forgetting how such a sensible guy Rick Wright was, and the fact that he was not such an egocentric member as Waters nor of such strong a character as is Gilmour or even Mason. This fact alone put clearly on evidence how overlooked was his essential contribution to the band as a whole, and i've always felt his greatness very present, especially when his sounds most seemed overshadowed by the other members works, that's exactly when his subtleties took the 'laurel'. . ..
Edited by Tillerman88 - January 29 2017 at 07:59
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: January 29 2017 at 00:51 |
SteveG wrote:
zravkapt wrote:
thief wrote:
... or maybe all of them simultaneously came to conclusion "let's do some mellow pop thing and cash in at last!"
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Bingo! |
There seems be a warped perception by the general public that the artist's (any artist's) record label was some kind of benign entity that merely produced vinyl, tapes or CDs on behalf of the music artist and had little power over them.
That was certainly not the case in the late 70's. Only artists like Marvin Gaye, Stevie Wonder and split up Beatles had that kind of artistic control that was afforded to them on the basis of a business contract that stated so. Read the lyrics to "Down and Out" below: "Down And Out" Its good to be here! How've you been?
Check my bags boy! Where's my room?
Gotta sit on the phone, that's my game,
Keep up the pressure all the way!
I don't want to beat about the bush
but none of us are getting any younger.
There's people out there who could take your place.
A more commercial view! A fresher face!
I need a shower, take a nap
I'll meet you in the bar, must have a rap.
There's a lot on the line, a lot to say.
And there's something I must tell you today.
You and I both knew the score,
you can't go on like this for ever.
So its with regret I tell you now
that from this moment on,
you're on your own!
I don't talk round corners, right between the eyes.
If you're slow they'll run past you,
Stand tall, see them falling over.
I walk a straight line, right between the eyes.
But just show me the door, show me someone who'll do it better.
The drinks are on me, be my guest.
Smoke a cigar? Take the best.
Don't hedge your bets, we can make a deal,
Got it in your pocket, how do you feel?
So glad that's over, now you know.
But I'm only acting under orders.
And looking down on you from way up here.
You've gotta sink or swim, get off the floor!
I don't talk round corners, right between the eyes.
If you're slow they'll run past you.
Stand tall, see them falling over.
I walk a straight line, right between the eyes.
But just show me the door, show me someone who'll do it better.
I've heard this speech given to artists by greasy record executives and label A&R reps too many times in the late seventies and early eighties. Remember, that was the age when a major record label that was built on the success of one single prog artist, Virgin Records and Mike Oldfield respectively, signed the next big commercial thing that they thought was coming, namely The Sex Pistols.
Artists are often rumored to makes deals with the devil in American folklore. Well, who do you suppose that devil was?
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Great post.
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Genesis after 1976 and responsibility
